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Hello & Goodbye at the same time!

Hello Dakka. LONG time lurker, never posted.

I wanted to write to you all for several reasons. Give some of you insight to one gamers experience, reasons for his actions (and leaving 40k gaming), and insight. Maybe this will help some of you, I don’t know.

I started gaming in the late 80’s (napoleon & civil war historical), but got involved with Games Workshop in 1989 while stationed in Europe. It was a great time, where several of us would paint and convert and play 40k and Space Hulk daily in the barracks. Great times. Some really funny game moments, like when I had to make 6 saves with a low ranked marine against an uber character, and I rolled 6 6’s! Then his uber character fails all rolls only to die by a tactical marine when I rolled another 5 6's!

I then got out of the army, and went back to Arizona (1994). This was my first time gaming in a hobby store environment in Mesa. It was pretty cool, and I got into fantasy (dwarfs & then Kislev) as well as continued with 40k. The variety of gamers (and their ages) was different, and I tended to game with those of my own age. Some of the younglings cried too much when they lost. This was also my first time seeing unpainted armies and stand in models. I was not too keen on that (at the time). I then moved to Washington State, where my army buddies were all doing the same!

Once in WA (1995), I gamed at an indy game store in Federal Way WA, and once again found older players with near complete painted & all GW mini armies. My army buddies, unfortunately, were no longer involved in miniature gaming. Then GW opened a store in Auburn, WA! That is where I really started to become a hardcore GW gamer. I read all the novels, comics, etc... Did epic, warmaster, etc.... Mordheim too.... I had several armies, and that’s when a 2k 40k army was about $300! I went to tournies, won best painted several times, and some other awards. This is when I also ran into my first malcontent, an older gent who complained of nerfed rules and so on. Also, a (loser) to the painted comp to me, belittled my won paint job every time I’d see him after that. But this was around 3rd & 4th editions, and I enjoyed playing a special army from the half sized GW magazine they put out. I did get humiliated though, when GW published a pic of a beautiful mini I had brought to their attention (this is when they published letters in WD and pictures from fans), and gave me credit for it. The next issue of WD berated me for attempting credit, when that was not what I meant to do. I left the GW scene (many knew me & believed the WD article) and started AT-43 at an indy store in Bothell (never did find anyone to play with)…Tried War machine too (Khador), it was okay.....

Then I got married. GW opened another location near to where I lived. I got back into it, 5th edition, and started fresh. My wife was livid (almost caused a divorce) over this hobby! Until I started a commission painting service and brought in $1k a month. Then the wife was fine. The local GW area manager also hired me to paint minis for the 3 GW stores. Paint a box he chose, get any 2 boxes of my choice for my work! Then I saw (one of mine) a sold piece win a Golden Daemon award. I sent GW an email, but they said oh well. I loved the game, especially when the big fantasy campaign (Middenheim) and 40k mega games were happening. Remember that world wide campaign where you could go online to report games? I especially liked the 10k versus 10k game we had in Seattle battle bunker over several connected tables! I also remember the GW forums, and miss them. Too bad GW shut those down. I found Dakka about then. Memories!

I then moved to CA a few years ago (2009/10). I missed 6th edition because of (real) life. I still painted some stuff, and sold it on ebay. I then started a new army early in 2013. Things seemed okay, although different, with the game and the company. I saw the prices had gone up, and this is when they’d start doing it yearly. That put a sour taste in my mouth. I also opened up to other companies models at that point. Also, Dakka has been interesting to say the least (and may have had a little to do with my exit of the hobby). (I also frequented Bols and a few others). I never knew there were so many jaded malcontents out there over a game. I never knew some gamers were so deep into these minis that they followed stock fluctuations and shareholder meeting minutes to help them discern to stay in, or bail out of, the hobby. Oh well, to each their own I guess. That was just to putting WAY too much importance on a habit/hobby that has( now past tense of had) maybe .5% bearing on my (real) life actions. Anyways…

Before I knew it, 7th edition was coming out. So I passed on getting a 6th ed book, and gamed without it the last part of 2013. I was really flabbergasted (there’s a word not used too much) when I started hearing about the 7th changes, then getting validation of those changes (which I didn’t really care for). Also the prices for GW too! It was a year ago when I paid (no pun meant) attention to the prices, but a 33% to 41% increase in that time?

All I can say is, it was fun while it lasted, but the insanity of rules changes and prices are just *&^%$ ridiculous now. One model $140? No FOC? Gamer communities crying out loud over everything (and GW NOT listening)? (all though I do agree with many of those cries now). It’s just too much. The fun, the bonding, the ease of the game (rules wise & cost wise), are just gone for me.

Thanks for the memories Games Workshop. I’m moving on now. My son & I will stick with xbox one & 360 for games to kill our leisure time, where $60 is the cost of a complete game, and I can resell it for $40 on ebay. Where I can play a vast variety of different games, from ancient to futuristic, to racing to just about anything, in the comfort of my home anytime (no painting required!).

Thanks fellow gamers, I appreciated everyone’s posts too!

Game on if your patience, tolerance, time, and wallet can still handle it all!

(A) Quit Gamer

Omg a dear John letter to GW!! Jesus I'd quit coming to dakka but its so hilarious all the time!

Such empathy you have watson.

Enjoy your xbox and any of the decent 40k games that come out on it, gamer. I can also recommend Dawn of War on the PC.

@Quitgamer: I quit paying GW prices a long time ago - didn't mean I quit gaming (and I loathe computer gaming - so that was never going to be an option for me).

I still have my 40k armies - even if I never play the game again (I bought the models because I LIKED the models - not playing the game doesn't invalidate that.) and they sit in my cupboard of shame - whilst I play other things.

Meh. The price creep just hasn't affected me.

I buy almost everything off eBay, based on what cool armies I feel like building rather than how competitive they are. I've never felt the need to buy £140 models just because they're there, or they're the new release. I like oop models and converting.

I use Vallejo and Minitaire paints, buy glue and greenscuff from other suppliers and use art shops for tools, paint extras, etc.

The only things I regularly buy from GW are physical codexes for the armies I own and the rules (digital). Or Forge World occasionally.

Maybe we should make a '40k on the cheap' article to help people out who feel like they want to quit the hobby because of pricing...

It's a bad thing when someone claims Golden Daemon credit for something you did. But it's a hard thing to police. We can only hope for karmic consequences.

Thanks for the story, was an interesting read. There is a slight scent of criticism towards younger gamers in your post.. I don't consider myself that young anymore (31 this year) and I feel your pain somehow, but at least the younger peeps don't have the need to write huge emotional manifests each time they get bored of the hobby

It seems your positive memories (and negative ones too) with the hobby have more to do with the social aspects, rather than with the hobby itself(?). In my opinion miniature gaming in 2014 is better than ever; there are multiple well-thought game systems available, plenty of amazing online stores, better paints, better brushes, active online communities, better miniatures (including the GW - their current kits, while way too expensive, are of amazing quality)... the list goes on. If you don't like it anymore, then I have news for you: It's just you (or GW somehow.. I do agree they're pretty ridiculous nowadays). It's alright though. This is a hobby, life goes on.

Hope you don't take this post too negatively or personally, it wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted to say that miniature gaming is in pretty good shape at the moment.

(I too have quit 40k. Was about to start again this year, but then I found WM/H. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but for me it's a dream come true right now. Let's see when my initial enthusiasm fades, so I can be more objective.)

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Meh. The price creep just hasn't affected me.

I buy almost everything off eBay,

I hear the "buy it from ebay" line alot. I regularly search ebay and honestly...I don't ever really find any good deals there. Either it's new in box and i can get a 20% discount (which i can get at normal stores), or is "propainted" and over priced. Show me where I can get 3 centurions built or unbuilt for less than 50 dollars and I'll tell you I'm wrong.

Have a look around at some other games, Bolt action is pretty fun as is flames of war, then theres warmachine and infinity plenty of stuff thats fun. Dont think GW is the hobby.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Maybe we should make a '40k on the cheap' article to help people out who feel like they want to quit the hobby because of pricing...

This sounds like a good idea. I have managed to keep my costs down and had to do so because most of the time I have a tight budget. I'll start listing out some points to see what I have learned. I'm sure that would help some players.

 rayphoton wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Meh. The price creep just hasn't affected me.

I buy almost everything off eBay,

I hear the "buy it from ebay" line alot. I regularly search ebay and honestly...I don't ever really find any good deals there. Either it's new in box and i can get a 20% discount (which i can get at normal stores), or is "propainted" and over priced. Show me where I can get 3 centurions built or unbuilt for less than 50 dollars and I'll tell you I'm wrong.

I think a lot of it is to do with the models you like and are happy to play with. I wouldn't expect to find good deals for Centurions, Imperial Knights, Maulerfiends, or anything that's a relatively recent release, as people haven't really had a chance to get bored of them.

As I said in the post, I like building unique or OOP armies and don't really have any desire to buy the latest models just because they're 'new'.

For example, I doubt you'll find any good deals for the new Helbrute kit on eBay, but OOP metal Chaos Dreads are dirt cheap. You probably won't find a Morkanaut, but there are lots of old Ork armies available.

Did enjoy reading that. I only quit after a year back into it cause no one plays near me, so therefore i don't paint. I'd love to play but GW stores just aren't an enjoyable place.

Saying 40k can be gotten cheap and talking about ebay isn't really sustainable.

The cheap stuff eventually gets purchased, and you're back to square one. Or you just don't find the things you're looking for.

The better way is to recommend other, more reasonably priced games instead of trying to artificially sustain a game that pretty much wants to destroy itself from the inside out.

And hey, we'll still get 40k stuff even if GW implodes or rapidly downsizes since the licenses will be available for other people to actually do something interesting with the setting.

 rayphoton wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Meh. The price creep just hasn't affected me.

I buy almost everything off eBay,

I hear the "buy it from ebay" line alot. I regularly search ebay and honestly...I don't ever really find any good deals there. Either it's new in box and i can get a 20% discount (which i can get at normal stores), or is "propainted" and over priced. Show me where I can get 3 centurions built or unbuilt for less than 50 dollars and I'll tell you I'm wrong.

The thing with Ebay is, other than what ArbitorIan has already pointed out about newer stuff being rare, is that often the 'bargains' require you to put in extra work on your end, which depending on how you view time and money, might be better value. For example, with a bit of trawling you can get stuff for 50% off, but half-built or caked in paint or with bits missing, but if you take the time to strip, rebuild and repaint the stuff then it can work out being a very economical method. Buying NIB, NOS or well-painted on Ebay is a less good option.

What specific model won the golden demon? Pics? Which issues of white dwarf were you referring to?

Sad to read your story man it sucks, but by the same token, what exactly are you doing on a predominantly 40K site posting this? If you quit, then quit. If you want validation for your reasons for quitting, I guess you came to the right place but why even bother if you hate it so much? Wasted energy if you ask me...

To the OP: There are other games out there that you might find more worthwhile and might rejuvenate your love for the hobby. A quick game of Warmachine might be more practical or the more strategic Infinity with its characterful models might appeal to you. I say take a deep look at what else is out there. You might be surprised.

Its a shame GW has priced themselves out of the market foir so many people.

I mean, three Tyranid Warriors for ~$70...enough said.

I still play and love to play 40k, but if they ever do go under, I bet it will be over price above all other factors. I got into the game by way of a trade-in of a fairly large and valuable collection of inherited Magic cards. If I never got those cards, I would never have started playing 40k, because its just too expensive to start....same reason I never got into golf.

The problem in general is they are priced for a skirmish game but push larger battles. They should take a cue from Warlord Games: A 1,000 point (normal size) army for Bolt Action is about $128 and has an HQ, four squads, 2-3 extras (mortars/artillery) and a tank. GW should be aiming for something around that, even if they charge $150 or so for "the best miniatures in the world" it'd still be reasonable. Instead, they charge outrageous prices for things that are tiny portions of what you need, thus necessitating buying even more and skyrocketing the cost.

Yep. I play Hail Caesar, and the prices Warlord Games asks for its boxes are completely fair and "what I'd expect". Couple that with the fact that there are 100% usable models from other brands for even cheaper, and we're right at my comfort ratio for price/value.

I really hope another sci-fi game similar to 40k, but with reasonable prices, pops up and gives GW some real competition at a markedly lower price point (so far as I can tell, Warmachine is also pretty expensive). I don't think GW is going to reduce prices out of their love for their fans.

 jasper76 wrote:
Yep. I play Hail Caesar, and the prices Warlord Games asks for its boxes are completely fair and "what I'd expect". Couple that with the fact that there are 100% usable models from other brands for even cheaper, and we're right at my comfort ratio for price/value.

I really hope another sci-fi game similar to 40k, but with reasonable prices, pops up and gives GW some real competition at a markedly lower price point (so far as I can tell, Warmachine is also pretty expensive). I don't think GW is going to reduce prices out of their love for their fans.

Warpath when it's kick starter launches lol. But yes I agree entirely.

 rayphoton wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Meh. The price creep just hasn't affected me.

I buy almost everything off eBay,

I hear the "buy it from ebay" line alot. I regularly search ebay and honestly...I don't ever really find any good deals there. Either it's new in box and i can get a 20% discount (which i can get at normal stores), or is "propainted" and over priced. Show me where I can get 3 centurions built or unbuilt for less than 50 dollars and I'll tell you I'm wrong.

I play Orks, and I got my entire army thus far for less than 500 bucks, and it's now sitting at about 5k points. Ebay is one of those things you have to check regularly, and wait for a deal to show up. Eventually, someone will sell something for much cheaper because it wasn't selling for the price they were hoping for.

 jasper76 wrote:
so far as I can tell, Warmachine is also pretty expensive

Yeah, it kinda is, but it doesn't feel like you're paying for "nothing". Faction books aren't compulsory for starters, every unit can be effective in the right list, the rules are tight, and there are no over/underpowered factions (yes, few factions have had less Tournament success, but they are still far from unplayable.. nothing compared to the situation with 40k).

For anyone having enough dough to even have miniature games as a hobby, the numeric price isn't the real question (it's not like anyone of us is suffering from involuntary malnutrition). The real question is; are you getting what you're paying for?

I'm not trying to get defensive about PP's pricing. It is on the steep side, but on the other hand, I don't feel like I'm paying too much so I don't know if it's the same thing as with 40k.

Hi, I made an account because people will make fun of me if I post on my real account to say why I am mad at 7th and I am super duper mad and am holding my breath I will teach you all a lesson for super sure now .

Teach you GW for not making the game I want and making it for the masses

OgreChubbs wrote:
Hi, I made an account because people will make fun of me if I post on my real account to say why I am mad at 7th and I am super duper mad and am holding my breath I will teach you all a lesson for super sure now .

Teach you GW for not making the game I want and making it for the masses

that's what I got too.

Thanks for the story, I'm just about right there with you! I've been an off and on casual 40k player since early 4th and it has completely kicked me out from advancing in playing it because of the rules, and the prices. I understand that sometimes prices go up but it was hard enough to justify paying for it back then when 98% of my income was disposable, impossible to pay for now that I only have about 5% of disposable income (being an adult is the worst). Also my friends have been driven away and most of them sold their armies and vowed never to play again.

I still love the 40k world, have my models on display, keep up with the Joneses so-to-speak. It's just not the same, my local hobby store plays it and I've gone once but it's mostly neck beards and try hards and they aren't any fun.

Side note: x-wing and warmachine are both cheaper, quicker, and easier alternatives if you enjoy wargaming! When I can play a standard size game in an hour with only 3-6 models on the field, that's a big sell too.

 jasper76 wrote:
Yep. I play Hail Caesar, and the prices Warlord Games asks for its boxes are completely fair and "what I'd expect". Couple that with the fact that there are 100% usable models from other brands for even cheaper, and we're right at my comfort ratio for price/value.

I really hope another sci-fi game similar to 40k, but with reasonable prices, pops up and gives GW some real competition at a markedly lower price point (so far as I can tell, Warmachine is also pretty expensive). I don't think GW is going to reduce prices out of their love for their fans.

I've pretty much hitched my wagon to the Warmachine train and I'd say even though the models are the same price (or close), there's two factors that make it "cheaper":

1. It plays really well at smaller scales. We've been playing the 2-player boxed set and the games are exciting and feel way more strategic than giant games of 40k. We'll probably continue to add little pieces to our armies but it doesn't feel like we're playing undersized forces like it would in, say, a 500 point game of 40k.

2. The rules are dirt cheap. $30 for the main rulebook and that's pretty much all you need, and there's even a mini-copy of that in the starter set. Codices are basically fluff and there's a free-to-download app that you can pay $7 per faction and have all the units and a complimentary army builder for (The ones in the starter boxes you get for free).

Honestly, if you really like 40k but feel like the prices are getting stupid and you haven't tried a different (non GW) game, you're REALLY missing out. Compared to the commitment GW asks for, there's next to none with other games.

I've pretty much hitched my wagon to the Warmachine train and I'd say even though the models are the same price (or close), there's two factors that make it "cheaper":

1. It plays really well at smaller scales. We've been playing the 2-player boxed set and the games are exciting and feel way more strategic than giant games of 40k. We'll probably continue to add little pieces to our armies but it doesn't feel like we're playing undersized forces like it would in, say, a 500 point game of 40k.

2. The rules are dirt cheap. $30 for the main rulebook and that's pretty much all you need, and there's even a mini-copy of that in the starter set. Codices are basically fluff and there's a free-to-download app that you can pay $7 per faction and have all the units and a complimentary army builder for (The ones in the starter boxes you get for free).

Honestly, if you really like 40k but feel like the prices are getting stupid and you haven't tried a different (non GW) game, you're REALLY missing out. Compared to the commitment GW asks for, there's next to none with other games.

The rules are also amazing, make sense, and are pretty air tight. The fluff is pretty good too but it's not like 40k's fluff at all especially since pretty much none of the characters ever die, only get stronger. Dragon Ball Z style.

Khador FTW!

 dup3 wrote:

I've pretty much hitched my wagon to the Warmachine train and I'd say even though the models are the same price (or close), there's two factors that make it "cheaper":

1. It plays really well at smaller scales. We've been playing the 2-player boxed set and the games are exciting and feel way more strategic than giant games of 40k. We'll probably continue to add little pieces to our armies but it doesn't feel like we're playing undersized forces like it would in, say, a 500 point game of 40k.

2. The rules are dirt cheap. $30 for the main rulebook and that's pretty much all you need, and there's even a mini-copy of that in the starter set. Codices are basically fluff and there's a free-to-download app that you can pay $7 per faction and have all the units and a complimentary army builder for (The ones in the starter boxes you get for free).

Honestly, if you really like 40k but feel like the prices are getting stupid and you haven't tried a different (non GW) game, you're REALLY missing out. Compared to the commitment GW asks for, there's next to none with other games.

The rules are also amazing, make sense, and are pretty air tight. The fluff is pretty good too but it's not like 40k's fluff at all especially since pretty much none of the characters ever die, only get stronger. Dragon Ball Z style.

Khador FTW!

The fluff isn't like 40k's, true. It's not worse, it's just different. I find I like it more because it follows more the ebb and flow of actual history. (I'm prejudiced that way 'cause I'm a historian.) But it's nuanced, rich and deep. (Check out the Iron Kingdoms RPG for detailed fluff.) It's not as extreme as 40k but 40k's fluff is like eating fruity pebbles every day. Some times its good to sit back with a good grilled chicken sandwich with spicy mustard once in a while.

While I certainly understand the price point being out of reach for many new gamers, but I've always been confused by long time veterans quitting almost solely due to pricing when in fact they are usually the least impacted by it. Most long time 40K players have 3K or more worth of models for their chosen armies and only really need to worry about new units and books. I guess if you want to build a new army every year or so, that could be a deterrent, but what is keeping you from playing the game with your existing armies?

When I got back into 40K with 6th, I had already sold my main army (Orks) so I decided to roll with Space Marines simply because I had almost 2K points worth of models laying around. Granted, I ended up spending probably another $300-400 US across multiple channels (ebay, FLGS, Amazon) but I've more than doubled my points worth of models. I've spent less on a 2500 point Chaos Daemon army because I traded an unused fantasy dwarf army for the daemon army core and only added a few extra units and cannabalized alot of older models to create daemon princes.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
While I certainly understand the price point being out of reach for many new gamers, but I've always been confused by long time veterans quitting almost solely due to pricing when in fact they are usually the least impacted by it. Most long time 40K players have 3K or more worth of models for their chosen armies and only really need to worry about new units and books. I guess if you want to build a new army every year or so, that could be a deterrent, but what is keeping you from playing the game with your existing armies?

This reported phenomenon also confuses me. A guy in our gaming group (who doesn't need the money) put 7K worth of Orks for sale at the flgs after the new codex came out. We told him we don't care if he uses his old softback codex, and advised him to save his stuff in case he ever got inerested in the game again...but we just couldn't get through.