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Pages of interest for this subject - 17 & 26 of the BRB. 6th edition.
NB: This question is not about Instant Death, that is a different mechanic based on a weapon hitting, wounding then the target failing a save throw against double their T value, please do not get confused with the topic.

There are 3 kinds of saves, an Invunerable, a Cover and an Armour save.

My question; from the wording of the rules, it would appear that a player can infer two meanings from the text, in regard to when an invunerable save is allowed to be taken.

Which of these two sentences is true ---

1) You may always take an invunerable save nomatter what has occured, this save is invunerable and cannot be changed by any game mechanic what so ever. If you have a model with an invun' save, nomatter what happens you will always take that save before suffering a wound.

or

2) You may only take an invunerable save when a wound is caused by normal means and effectively negates the AP of the weapon involved, you take your save even if the AP of the weapon was 1 or it can ignore cover and/or ARMOUR saves (e.g., armourbain, rending whatever..). You cannot take an invunerable save in any situation whereby you have been instantly removed as a casualty or instantly suffered a wound 'with no saves of [u]any kind allowed'.

Items which cause a wound or remove a casualty with 'no saves of any kind allowed':
Perils of the warp.
Eldar have one, I can't remember it's name.
Necron monolith door.
Necron tesseract labrynth.
Necron transdimensional beamer.


My question arrises because a friend thinks his termy librarian always gets his 5++, even against perils of the warp, last game he made his save then killed 2 squads of mine and won with that single model. I'd really like to know if he is not playing quite fair.

There are some attacks which do not allow invulnerable save.

Dark eldar shattershard, hexrifle come to mind.

But I think they specifically state you may not take an invulnerable save.

And yes as you stated anything that says "no saves of any kind" would of course prevent invulnerable from working since it is a "kind of save" and no save of any kind may be taken.

Is there an actual rules question here?

 Ghaz wrote:
Is there an actual rules question here?

Yeah get your glasses mate
Question is which is correct, option 1 or 2. I made the text bolder for you.

You may always take the best save you have. Whether it's armor, cover, or invulnerable.

Fragile wrote:
You may always take the best save you have. Whether it's armor, cover, or invulnerable.

Indeed you are right and I understand that element, however when a model suffers a wound 'with no saves of any kind allowed' such as the most common form being a failed perils of the warp roll, do you still take an invunerable against it? My friend says yes, I am not convinced.

His reasoning is the first statement in my OP, mine is the second.

Is an 'invulnerable save' a save?
are you allowed to take saves? of any kind?

No, you don't get to take an invul save when the rule states "no saves of any kind allowed".

Is an "Invulnerable Save" a kind of save? The answer is Yes. Ergo, you don't get them in that situation.

Deviant duck and clively you both seem to agree with my statement (the second one in the OP). I have a feeling that librarian should have been killed by the failed perils roll and could not have gone on to win the game for my friend... bit annoying. Any other opinions?
The wording on BRB 17 & 26 is quite difficult to understand, or we were just overthinking it. It does say a model always gets an invun'. I don't want to get in trouble by posting copyright material though.

Lol, yay all the necron stuff that removes things! But for real, if it says no saves allowed, that means no Invluns, But I think it has to specifically say "no saves allowed".

Fragile wrote:
You may always take the best save you have. Whether it's armor, cover, or invulnerable.

thanks for that, you didn't answer his question either.

you cannot take an invulnerable save (or armor or cover, or even feel no pain rolls) against any wound or damage that does not allow any saves of any kind.

The part about always getting an invulnerable is a general rule that is overridden by the more specific rule of "no saves of any kind". You're over thinking it.

Well now I feel the urge to henry hoover up my friend and chase the librarian around with a monolith...
Thank you all for the replies and please if anyone feels the first statement is true or can offer more insight it is very welcome to the topic, especially if you have experience with these units (e.g., have ever failed a Psychic Test). Did you take an invun' from it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zachwho wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You may always take the best save you have. Whether it's armor, cover, or invulnerable.

thanks for that, you didn't answer his question either.

you cannot take an invulnerable save (or armor or cover, or even feel no pain rolls) against any wound or damage that does not allow any saves of any kind.

Thank you for coming to my aid, however I must correct you on the last part of what you said. I have already spent a huge amount of time looking into this subject and on the 1.5 FAQ and errata by GW for the BRB it says:

Q: Can the Feel No Pain special rule be used to resist a Wound
suffered from the Perils of the Warp? (p35)
A: Yes.

So I would say that 'Feel no Pain' is a completely different mechanic to Saving throws (of any kind, including invun').

I would rather not derail the thread though, I would like to understand the original question and if anyone has the same opinion as my friend then please join in!

Your friend is being an optimistic idiot. 'No saves of any kind allowed' is sufficiently explanatory.
Why they FAQ'd it that you can take a FNP save I do not know because that confuses the whole thing.

xlDuke wrote:
Your friend is being an optimistic idiot. 'No saves of any kind allowed' is sufficiently explanatory.
Why they FAQ'd it that you can take a FNP save I do not know because that confuses the whole thing.

If the leader is a fool, then what is the follower ?

But yes, I do agree FNP feels awkwardly slotted in there.

Duped!

fnp is not a save technically speaking since its called feel no pain not feel no pain save its all in the wording

In prior editions it was possible to to save perils of the warp with invulnerable saves. I think it was somehing like: successful inv saves must be rerolled. Maybe your friend just isnt up to date with 7th ed.

As wargammer1985 points out,
Feel No Pain is not one of the there things defined under 'Saves,' it is just a Special Rule which allows a Wound to be discarded, which is why it gets to work even if a Saving Throw has already been attempted.

I personally hate any Rule which is defined in such a way that they would over-write all exceptions, even those written specifically for said Rule! It is nothing more then sloppy editing, which is probably why Editor is a ceremonial title over there, as all Rule based systems should be designed to allow exceptions. Sadly there are a few of them in this Rulebook, with the description of Invulnerability Saves containing such a clause. Then, further on in the book, they create exceptions that would even prevent Invulnerability Save from being taken without a care for the confusion it creates.

General consensus is that the Restriction over-writes the Permission.

Thank you everyone for your help, it's quite clear there is a general consensus on here from people who have played a very long time. I really appriciate you all taking the time to help with my question and GLHF in all your games.

 Registered Ork Offender wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You may always take the best save you have. Whether it's armor, cover, or invulnerable.

Indeed you are right and I understand that element, however when a model suffers a wound 'with no saves of any kind allowed' such as the most common form being a failed perils of the warp roll, do you still take an invunerable against it? My friend says yes, I am not convinced.

His reasoning is the first statement in my OP, mine is the second.

Sorry, your initial question was a bit confusing. Anything that states "no saves of any kind allowed" means just that. No cover, armor or invulnerable saves. Things like Feel No Pain can still be uses against wounds though.

I request that you return any time you have a Rule related question, as it is always nice to see someone whom is polite on the internet!

"No save of any kind" means just that. An invulnerable save (or armor, or cover save) is a save, so you do not get to use it in these cases.

FNP is not a save, so it still applies.