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This is something that's always bothered me. Supposedly, Ork Warbosses are massive, musclebound beasts. The biggest and nastiest of the Orks, towering over humans, having grown to the point of being nigh-immune to mere anti-infantry weapons. They are the pinaccle of Ork strength, and are 'Arder, Better, Fasta, and Stronger dan da rest of da boyz.

And yet... Proto-humans who live on high-gravity planets are just as nasty. No, an Ogryn doesn't have the Weapon Skill, Attacks, Leadership, Wargear Access, or Initiative of a Warboss... But in terms of physical prowess, living in harsh conditions for a few generations makes you as tough as any Ork can even aspire to be. It's not even abnormal, EVERY Ogyrn is as tough and strong as a Warboss.

In fact, that's something that's bothered me about Warboss portrayal in general: Despite their fluff making the tougher ones on-par with Chapter Masters, a Warboss can never hope to compete with enemies of that caliber. They're not a bad model by any means, I love me a good Warboss, but he's a 60 point model and it shows. Why is it that an Ork of such magnitude has stats and power barely noteworthy against real Close Conbat enemies?

A few generation no it wouldn't, 10,000 to 40,000 years on the other hand will do a lot.

The (vastly significant) edge the Warboss has is that he's fairly intelligent and very kunnin'....

Ogryns are dumb as bricks. If it's not a frontal assault, the tactic is too complex for them.

Probably for the same reason that ig are fearless armywide with priests that don't take foc slots and orks have new mob rule and painboyz that are HQ.

 koooaei wrote:
Probably for the same reason that ig are fearless armywide with priests that don't take foc slots and orks have new mob rule and painboyz that are HQ.

Translation: GW's rules-scribes couldn't write their way out of a wet paper bag.

Meh. Ogryns, after mutating, are bred by the Imperium like animals to serve as cheap manual labour. Vast majority of them work in manufactorums, knowing only the life of a cargo lifter/mover. Thousands of years of single purpose could change people a lot - just look how much we, humans, changed physically over last TWO thousand years, let alone 5 or 10.

Orks on the other hand are faster, smarter, more skilled at.. everything really and harder to kill permanently. Their wounds heal much faster than any ogryn ever would and other than raw strength and muscly resilience( remember that Ogryns are -huge- ) are better than them. And strength doesn't matter that much when you have a power klaw!

The difference between stat point values is vague and often represents fairly significant leaps in abilities. A marine in power armour is vastly stronger than even the strongest ordinary human, and yet is represented by a single point difference in strength.

Plus, strength is only one aspect; and as you pointed out, initiative, attacks, and WS represent the Warbosses ability to apply that strength better. Besides, there are varying sizes and strengths of warbosses and Ogryn, and S5 is a good benchmark for them in game.

There dumb as posts, there strong but not all that bright.
There a nigh genius if they can write name....yet alone plan battle tactics or organise a waraagh to cross the stars

Perhaps consider the warboss in the game to be a weaker boss - after all, only a weak boss would be commanding such small forces. Perhaps there is an opportunity to suggest different boss upgrades at differing points values.

E.g. Goliath Warboss - 150 points - s8, t8 etc

Thats the statline Ghaz really should have since hes a LOW. His current statline is pitiful to be a LOW, it was that way to balance him as an HQ.

In the fluff, Warbosses duel with Chapter Masters and the winner is always a toss-up... Is 4 Wounds really too much to ask for? Or T6? Maybe a Warboss shouldn't be as tough as a Monstrous Creature, I dunno, but T5 S6 W4 doesn't seem like too much to ask for. Then we could also distinguish Big Meks from Nobz.
Or maybe, similar to Captains and Chapter Masters, we have Warbosses and Warlords?

Waaaghpower wrote:
In the fluff, Warbosses duel with Chapter Masters and the winner is always a toss-up... Is 4 Wounds really too much to ask for? Or T6? Maybe a Warboss shouldn't be as tough as a Monstrous Creature, I dunno, but T5 S6 W4 doesn't seem like too much to ask for. Then we could also distinguish Big Meks from Nobz.
Or maybe, similar to Captains and Chapter Masters, we have Warbosses and Warlords?

As much as I'd love to have a bigger, badder Warboss, our HQ costs are a steal. And for a Ws5, S5, T5, W3, A4 model for 60 points before upgrades is pretty darn good. I'd prefer a 'better' warboss as a different HQ choice, to give us more options, or if they would buff Ghaz to the point of being our 'super-warboss', like he is supposed to be...not an overglorified standard warboss.

Or maybe not a new HQ for the super warboss. Maybe just upgrade options similar how Tyranids have, just for the Warboss to represent his 'experience' in da field.

I totally agree with the OP, but I think a LOT of the problem with this is the gradual 'ramping up' of the Ogryn.

Orks are a victim of their own success. The Brian Nelson nobs were fantastic, and the plastic nobs were amazing multipart miniatures. There was no reason to re-invent them, and every reason to keep them compatible with the older metal models.

Ogryns used to be vaguely comical looking (I love those models, with their Popeye forearms). Then they were reinvented in metal as fairly grim looking sorts, and no attempt was made to give them any continuity of appearance. I don't think those models were particularly beloved (or hated, to be fair), but there was no reason to maintain a continuity with them when it was decided to go to plastic.

GW now can do a lot of large plastic miniatures, and they seem to have a mania for multiple unit boxes now. So the Ogryns were made even larger, and given even more weapon options, fundamentally because they needed them to sell better than the old ones.

I love the new models, and I love the idea of Ogryns, but I HATE the fact that the Imperium now equips abhumans too dumb to avoid using all their ammo in one go with Grenadier Gauntlets, Suppression Shields, and shock mauls. I liked the Ogryns as poor, dumb abhumans exploited by the Imperium for their muscle, but now, the Ogryns are equipped with weapons and armor that would make the guard jealous.

I think that the Warboss, at least, should be fighting Ogryns on an even footing, even without equipment. An ogryn and a mad warboss, shoved into a fighting pit with no weapons, should be, at best, an even contest, and I think the rules should actually favor the Warboss. If truth be told, I think that nobs should be a little less tough than Ogryns, and Warbosses a little tougher, and that's before the power klaw and the like.

The whole situation isn't helped by the absence of any real rarity restriction either. Well-equipped and trained Ogryn troops might be allegedly rare in the fluff, but anyone can take a shedload of them now. If I had thought that GW would make Ogryn this cool, I would have thought about avoiding orks and doing a Ogryn Auxiliary Force (I used to love Ogre Kingdoms before they added a metric crapton of big monsters to the Ogres. The OGRES were the monsters!).

Where are people getting that warbosses are supposed to be immune to small-arms fire? He's flesh and blood. Nothing that is flesh and blood in 40K is immune to small-arms fire.

Tyrannofexes are not immune to small-arms fire. Why would a warboss be?

That said, I think Ogryns are too tough for what they are conceptually. That an anti-tank missile cannot ID one is a little silly. They should be T4.

Waaaghpower wrote:
And yet... Proto-humans who live on high-gravity planets are just as nasty. No, an Ogryn doesn't have the Weapon Skill, Attacks, Leadership, Wargear Access, or Initiative of a Warboss...

SO, in other words, aside from being nowhere near as nasty, they're just as nasty...?

 insaniak wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
And yet... Proto-humans who live on high-gravity planets are just as nasty. No, an Ogryn doesn't have the Weapon Skill, Attacks, Leadership, Wargear Access, or Initiative of a Warboss...

SO, in other words, aside from being nowhere near as nasty, they're just as nasty...?

Thanks for cutting off the 'But' in my statement which clarified that my problem was that they are physically as nasty, not intellectually. If I cut up quotes from other people, I can make them sound silly too!

Waaaghpower wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
And yet... Proto-humans who live on high-gravity planets are just as nasty. No, an Ogryn doesn't have the Weapon Skill, Attacks, Leadership, Wargear Access, or Initiative of a Warboss...

SO, in other words, aside from being nowhere near as nasty, they're just as nasty...?

Thanks for cutting off the 'But' in my statement which clarified that my problem was that they are physically as nasty, not intellectually. If I cut up quotes from other people, I can make them sound silly too!

I noticed some people do that a lot from certain users here. Picking apart quotes etc. Just put the full bit in your reply. Just to clarify to those reading.

I love the new models, and I love the idea of Ogryns, but I HATE the fact that the Imperium now equips abhumans too dumb to avoid using all their ammo in one go with Grenadier Gauntlets, Suppression Shields, and shock mauls. I liked the Ogryns as poor, dumb abhumans exploited by the Imperium for their muscle, but now, the Ogryns are equipped with weapons and armor that would make the guard jealous.

Suppression shields are common to the Arbites, grenadier gauntlets are just grenade launchers "Refitted" to be ogryn use, like ripper guns, shock mauls would be rather arbite as well if it wasn't a direct analogue for Power Maul.

Melevolence wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
In the fluff, Warbosses duel with Chapter Masters and the winner is always a toss-up... Is 4 Wounds really too much to ask for? Or T6? Maybe a Warboss shouldn't be as tough as a Monstrous Creature, I dunno, but T5 S6 W4 doesn't seem like too much to ask for. Then we could also distinguish Big Meks from Nobz.
Or maybe, similar to Captains and Chapter Masters, we have Warbosses and Warlords?

As much as I'd love to have a bigger, badder Warboss, our HQ costs are a steal........

Not really....

A bare boned Warboss is 60pts like you said. But is also useless until you slap some expensive gear on him. 7 attacks at S6 on the charge with no AP and no armor is a waste of an HQ slot.

The only viable warbosses run you 110-150pts usually. This is either in mega armor or on bike. They used to be a steal at this price, not anymore since now they have no invul and lost their attack squig usefulness. The 40pt gap basically depends on what relic he took, if any.
Previous edition my biker boss could run against big bugs and not take a single wound if my 5+ luck was handy, passing either invul or fnp. Now, even against a lowly sergeant i pretty much always take a wound since i ONLY have the fnp. And since its not a "saving throw" i cannot lucky stikk the result.

Our HQs should have kept their invuls. Im fine with removing it from our bikernobz as they were a bit crazy. im fine with grotsnik no longer giving out 5++ like candy to anybody. why the hell does our warboss not have one? or for that matter GHAZGKHULL lol

Waaaghpower wrote:
This is something that's always bothered me. Supposedly, Ork Warbosses are massive, musclebound beasts. The biggest and nastiest of the Orks, towering over humans, having grown to the point of being nigh-immune to mere anti-infantry weapons. They are the pinaccle of Ork strength, and are 'Arder, Better, Fasta, and Stronger dan da rest of da boyz.

And yet... Proto-humans who live on high-gravity planets are just as nasty. No, an Ogryn doesn't have the Weapon Skill, Attacks, Leadership, Wargear Access, or Initiative of a Warboss... But in terms of physical prowess, living in harsh conditions for a few generations makes you as tough as any Ork can even aspire to be. It's not even abnormal, EVERY Ogyrn is as tough and strong as a Warboss.

In fact, that's something that's bothered me about Warboss portrayal in general: Despite their fluff making the tougher ones on-par with Chapter Masters, a Warboss can never hope to compete with enemies of that caliber. They're not a bad model by any means, I love me a good Warboss, but he's a 60 point model and it shows. Why is it that an Ork of such magnitude has stats and power barely noteworthy against real Close Conbat enemies?

Statistically, a war boss will crush a chapter master. He only needs to get a single wound through to cause instant death.

You appear to be basing this off strength and toughness. A space marine is several times stronger than a human, yet game stats show they are only 25% stronger. The limited scale of the S and T table where normal beings are restricted to 2 - 5 means that you end up with some odd combinations.

Warbosses in the fluff will mow through Ogryn. Hell, in game they will mow through ogryn. I had a single war boss crush 3 ogryn in a single assault.

 PhillyT wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
This is something that's always bothered me. Supposedly, Ork Warbosses are massive, musclebound beasts. The biggest and nastiest of the Orks, towering over humans, having grown to the point of being nigh-immune to mere anti-infantry weapons. They are the pinaccle of Ork strength, and are 'Arder, Better, Fasta, and Stronger dan da rest of da boyz.

And yet... Proto-humans who live on high-gravity planets are just as nasty. No, an Ogryn doesn't have the Weapon Skill, Attacks, Leadership, Wargear Access, or Initiative of a Warboss... But in terms of physical prowess, living in harsh conditions for a few generations makes you as tough as any Ork can even aspire to be. It's not even abnormal, EVERY Ogyrn is as tough and strong as a Warboss.

In fact, that's something that's bothered me about Warboss portrayal in general: Despite their fluff making the tougher ones on-par with Chapter Masters, a Warboss can never hope to compete with enemies of that caliber. They're not a bad model by any means, I love me a good Warboss, but he's a 60 point model and it shows. Why is it that an Ork of such magnitude has stats and power barely noteworthy against real Close Conbat enemies?

Statistically, a war boss will crush a chapter master. He only needs to get a single wound through to cause instant death.

You appear to be basing this off strength and toughness. A space marine is several times stronger than a human, yet game stats show they are only 25% stronger. The limited scale of the S and T table where normal beings are restricted to 2 - 5 means that you end up with some odd combinations.

Warbosses in the fluff will mow through Ogryn. Hell, in game they will mow through ogryn. I had a single war boss crush 3 ogryn in a single assault.

Allegedly, a Warboss will do this... But in real life, that will never happen. Chapter Masters without the Shield Eternal or Gorgon's Chain are unheard of. Warbosses, on the other hand, don't get access to anything of that caliber. (Or anything near it. For the same price as a 3++ and EW, we just get EW. (You'll never have a boss without a Painboy and Relentless anyways...)
Statistically shmatistically, in practice it doesn't matter.

True, it doesn't work against eternal warrior, but in every other setting, a warboss has a great shot at pulverizing a chapter master.

The point stands. Baring a single instance relic or the odd special chapter, war bosses will Krump most characters.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Thanks for cutting off the 'But' in my statement which clarified that my problem was that they are physically as nasty, not intellectually. If I cut up quotes from other people, I can make them sound silly too!

Once you point out that the Warboss has a better weapon skill and number of attacks, how are Ogryns as 'physically nasty' as a Warboss?

They're just he same size, is all.

 insaniak wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Thanks for cutting off the 'But' in my statement which clarified that my problem was that they are physically as nasty, not intellectually. If I cut up quotes from other people, I can make them sound silly too!

Once you point out that the Warboss has a better weapon skill and number of attacks, how are Ogryns as 'physically nasty' as a Warboss?

They're just he same size, is all.

Physically nasty. As in, as strong, as durable, as hardy. His training, talent, and experience have nothing to dowith it: Humans, no matter how mutated or evolved, should not be as tough and strong as a Warboss, and that's the source of my frustration. Warbosses are supposed to be THE toughest warriors in the galaxy, short if Monstrous Creatures... But then innumerable mutated humans rival a Warbosses' physical prowess without trying. I never said they were as powerful, I said they were physically equals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
True, it doesn't work against eternal warrior, but in every other setting, a warboss has a great shot at pulverizing a chapter master.

The point stands. Baring a single instance relic or the odd special chapter, war bosses will Krump most characters.

When's the last time you saw a Chapter Master WITHOUT Eternal Warrior? It's a must-take. And the Warboss has no equivalent boost available to him.
On top of it all, Warbosses have no shot at a CMs durability, nor any other Close Combat nasty. Either he's very vulnerable to Instant Death or he only has a 4+ save, no EW, no Invuln, only 3 wounds. Against light arms fire a Chapter Master kick's a Warbosses butt. Against AP2 the CM wins. Against attacks at Initiative the Chapter Master. At killing large numbers, the Chapter Master wins.

There are simply no circumstances where a properly built Warboss has even a marginal chance against a properlt built Chapter Master. They're different orders of magnitude.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Warbosses are supposed to be THE toughest warriors in the galaxy, short if Monstrous Creatures...

Warbosses are at the top of the Ork hierarchy. I don't think it's stated anywhere that they are the toughest warriors in the galaxy, except maybe in the form of the opinions of other Orks. They would have pretty stiff competition in the form of Destroyer Lords, Phoenix Lords, Succubi (and Chapter Masters ), numerous species that have not been fleshed out.

An Ogryn appears to be considerably taller and better muscled than a Warboss (it is after all an OGRE IN SPACE).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, I think that's the problem here. You're approaching them as if they were realistically mutated humans, when in reality what they are is Ogres in Space.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Physically nasty. As in, as strong, as durable, as hardy.

Right. By 'nasty' you don't actually mean 'nasty'... which is what I was getting at from the start.

Being as big and strong as something does not make you equal in physical prowess. A cow is bigger and stronger than a honey badger... but I know which one I would prefer to have to fight with a pointed stick.


And Ogryns are a long way from being humans. Descended from Humans, but no more human than a Space Marine, or a Beastman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:
An Ogryn appears to be considerably taller and better muscled than a Warboss (it is after all an OGRE IN SPACE)..

It's hard to tell from artwork, since every artist adds their own spin to scaling... Model-wise, though, Ogryns are identical (or close enough as makes no odds) to a Warboss. I have the metal Nork Deddog model with a Warboss head mixed in with a bunch of Warboss models as my Mega-boss's Nob retine.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Thanks for cutting off the 'But' in my statement which clarified that my problem was that they are physically as nasty, not intellectually. If I cut up quotes from other people, I can make them sound silly too!

Once you point out that the Warboss has a better weapon skill and number of attacks, how are Ogryns as 'physically nasty' as a Warboss?

They're just he same size, is all.

Physically nasty. As in, as strong, as durable, as hardy. His training, talent, and experience have nothing to dowith it: Humans, no matter how mutated or evolved, should not be as tough and strong as a Warboss, and that's the source of my frustration. Warbosses are supposed to be THE toughest warriors in the galaxy, short if Monstrous Creatures... But then innumerable mutated humans rival a Warbosses' physical prowess without trying. I never said they were as powerful, I said they were physically equals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
True, it doesn't work against eternal warrior, but in every other setting, a warboss has a great shot at pulverizing a chapter master.

The point stands. Baring a single instance relic or the odd special chapter, war bosses will Krump most characters.

When's the last time you saw a Chapter Master WITHOUT Eternal Warrior? It's a must-take. And the Warboss has no equivalent boost available to him.
On top of it all, Warbosses have no shot at a CMs durability, nor any other Close Combat nasty. Either he's very vulnerable to Instant Death or he only has a 4+ save, no EW, no Invuln, only 3 wounds. Against light arms fire a Chapter Master kick's a Warbosses butt. Against AP2 the CM wins. Against attacks at Initiative the Chapter Master. At killing large numbers, the Chapter Master wins.

There are simply no circumstances where a properly built Warboss has even a marginal chance against a properlt built Chapter Master. They're different orders of magnitude.

.

At any given time there is on non SC chapter master on the table with the shield. So yes, like I said, if the guy has eternal warrior there is a problem. But anything else is likely to be dead at the end of a combat phase with an ork. War bosses will generally have a bike to T6 or mega armor for as2, plus a painboy. Most weapons will likely be poor at wounding or eliminating his armor, or they are going to slow the marine to his speed. In either case, the boss is immune to almost any instant death other than a psyker, and he needs only one of his 4-5 attacks to squeak through.

He isn't and shouldn't be expected to be as durable as a marine. He needs to take a beating to do it, but he can dish out some pain.