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 Savageconvoy wrote:
What really creeps me out about all of this, is I haven't seen one honest attempt to put a positive spin on this. Not one person coming to say "lol sky if falling, been saying that for 20 years! GW too big to sink."

It was literally the second post of this thread.

 pretre wrote:
Nope. People have been predicting their demise for 20 years; I don't think it's any more likely this time.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
I honestly think that in order for GW to save themselves, they need to do the following:

1) Lower prices. You cannot tell me that molds are expensive, because they made that back 100 times within a few months of the product being on the shelves. $82 for a Stormraven, $74 for a Land Raider, $78 (might be a bit off on this one) for three frakkin Centurians is criminal, and it kills interest for people to get into the game because of the expense. It is NOT expensive to produce these models, so a price drop would sell more models and help with profitability.

2) Interact more with the community, and keep open lines of communication. How hard is it to answer simple rules questions or discrepancies? I am all about the roll off, but honestly some rules just need clarification. Drop the cone of silence. Have an active FB page and Twitter feed to answer rules questions or promote new things.

They could also do well with listening to the community for things that the game is trending about and make adjustments as necessary. I could go on with this topic forever, but will close it with, listen to your customers, we know what's up.

3) Make editions last longer. Stop nerfing units, instead add new units to counter 'broken' or 'op' units. I personally believe you should either buff existing units, leave them the same, or do nothing to them at all. This will ensure that the people who spend money on a particular unit now, won't feel like they wasted their money because in the next edition it sucks.

While not really a true fix, as I don't know what their bottom line is, I know that these things are tried and true methods to keep a player base going and bring in new players. GW won't go under, but it is extremely disconcerting to see Kirby announce that he is stepping down, just ahead of dropping what I can see as awful sales figures for the year.

Given a competent CEO stepping into place, this could be done successfully and really turn GW's image and sales around. I would love to see this happen, as I love the 40k universe and the products. Doubtful it will happen, or at least at such a magnificent extent, but I would love to see this happen.

 Ouze wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
What really creeps me out about all of this, is I haven't seen one honest attempt to put a positive spin on this. Not one person coming to say "lol sky if falling, been saying that for 20 years! GW too big to sink."

It was literally the second post of this thread.

 pretre wrote:
Nope. People have been predicting their demise for 20 years; I don't think it's any more likely this time.

I'm assuming he meant after the Financials thread was linked. Although again if you want to see the white knights out in full force, go check out BOLS' article.

Went to my FGS. Can't put in the L since it's a 1/2 hour drive away. Was shocked to see 6 boxes of Sanctus Reach, I picked it up. I turned it around, saw the $150 price tag and put it down right away. Wanted something 40K, but didn't like the prices. Getting so little for paying so much.

Saw the new Dark Vengeance box set. Picked it up. Saw it was $110. Not bad, but still, pricey. Since I already had it, I can wait to pick it up. Since GW is not offering me anything else to buy, I left the GW section. Maybe I should start a new army. Ooo look the Imperial Knight book. GAH! $60. $170 for one mini? My wife would castrate me.

I went to the other shelf and bought more Star Trek Attack Wing and Star Wars X-Wing. And GW wonders why they are having less sales.

While I maybe be paying the same per cost of mini, I feel like I am getting a better deal with X-Wing and Attack Wing. So money that was about to go to GW went else where.

And GW is still wondering why they are loosing sales. At least my FGS is still getting my money no matter what. Problem is, GW is not now.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
What really creeps me out about all of this, is I haven't seen one honest attempt to put a positive spin on this. Not one person coming to say "lol sky if falling, been saying that for 20 years! GW too big to sink."

It was literally the second post of this thread.

 pretre wrote:
Nope. People have been predicting their demise for 20 years; I don't think it's any more likely this time.

I'm assuming he meant after the Financials thread was linked. Although again if you want to see the white knights out in full force, go check out BOLS' article.

Perhaps I misunderstood; if so my mistake of course.

Can you link that thread? I'm having a hard time finding it.

Dulu wrote:
Some more anecdotal evidence I'd like to toss into the mix...

Miniwargaming's Youtube channel and website are more popular than ever, and the demand for more 40k content (particularly the Battle Reports) is leading the charge.

Now, this may just be due to the quality of the channel, but if you read the Youtube comments, it seems like there are a lot of new people getting into 40k.

But I agree, the GW price gouging is getting a bit ridiculous..

5 Space Marines for $39 or whatever is a joke.

Strikingscorpion82 is another favorite of mine, can't think of the names but I know of several other channels getting into 40k/fantasy battle reports. It does generate a lot of interest, but its hard to get people engaged when the company supplying said product is failing and barely treading water. I personally would love to see a turn around, as I love this hobby. But, time will tell.

The storm claw box was the best deal they've had in the last year. If you balked at $150, you should see the price if you bought all those models separately. You also get a rule book which would be $85 for the hardcover set or $30-40 on ebay for the paperback. 40k just isn't for you if $150 is too much for 2 armies and a rule book. I know GW's prices are ridiculous but this is one of the few items they make that's fairly priced for what you get.

 Ouze wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
What really creeps me out about all of this, is I haven't seen one honest attempt to put a positive spin on this. Not one person coming to say "lol sky if falling, been saying that for 20 years! GW too big to sink."

It was literally the second post of this thread.

 pretre wrote:
Nope. People have been predicting their demise for 20 years; I don't think it's any more likely this time.

I'm assuming he meant after the Financials thread was linked. Although again if you want to see the white knights out in full force, go check out BOLS' article.

Perhaps I misunderstood; if so my mistake of course.

Can you link that thread? I'm having a hard time finding it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/607499.page is the Annual report thread.

It is fair if you want Space Wolf and Ork models plus a campaign book featuring them. Otherwise it is a $150 for a softback rulebook that realistically should retail for $20.

Toofast wrote:
The storm claw box was the best deal they've had in the last year. If you balked at $150, you should see the price if you bought all those models separately. You also get a rule book which would be $85 for the hardcover set or $30-40 on ebay for the paperback. 40k just isn't for you if $150 is too much for 2 armies and a rule book. I know GW's prices are ridiculous but this is one of the few items they make that's fairly priced for what you get.

It's still not "fairly priced" when they overcharge to begin with. A deal, sure, but getting a $150,000 car for $110,000 is a deal too, doesn't mean it's not overpriced.

Don't confuse deal with fair, they are two different things. A fair price for Stormclaw would have been probably no more than $100. At $150, it might be a deal but it's still overcosted.

I'm quite convinced that had GW held a company-wide summer sale, instead of releasing 7th edition, this financial report would be vastly different. Who here doesn't have a list of models they'd love to pick up, if only they weren't so expensive. Hell, I'd bet some would buy enough for entire armies if the price was right.

Personally I would start with rules and codexes. I am assuming that most customers are game-players first and won't buy units unless they have the rules to use them. I think GW did themselves great damage by doubling the price of a codex.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
I honestly think that in order for GW to save themselves, they need to do the following:

1) Lower prices. You cannot tell me that molds are expensive, because they made that back 100 times within a few months of the product being on the shelves. $82 for a Stormraven, $74 for a Land Raider, $78 (might be a bit off on this one) for three frakkin Centurians is criminal, and it kills interest for people to get into the game because of the expense. It is NOT expensive to produce these models, so a price drop would sell more models and help with profitability.

2) Interact more with the community, and keep open lines of communication. How hard is it to answer simple rules questions or discrepancies? I am all about the roll off, but honestly some rules just need clarification. Drop the cone of silence. Have an active FB page and Twitter feed to answer rules questions or promote new things.

They could also do well with listening to the community for things that the game is trending about and make adjustments as necessary. I could go on with this topic forever, but will close it with, listen to your customers, we know what's up.

3) Make editions last longer. Stop nerfing units, instead add new units to counter 'broken' or 'op' units. I personally believe you should either buff existing units, leave them the same, or do nothing to them at all. This will ensure that the people who spend money on a particular unit now, won't feel like they wasted their money because in the next edition it sucks.

While not really a true fix, as I don't know what their bottom line is, I know that these things are tried and true methods to keep a player base going and bring in new players. GW won't go under, but it is extremely disconcerting to see Kirby announce that he is stepping down, just ahead of dropping what I can see as awful sales figures for the year.

I'm not sure if GW can reduce prices in the short term, it may well be the only thing keeping them afloat. What they should do instead is make the price of entry much, much lower. Say a Skirmish type game with 10-20 miniatures a side for £50-60, basically what their competitors make. Even something like a redone Space Crusade would be a great idea. A £50 price tag is far more likely to bring in people than £500 and once people are interested they may well be more inclined to spend the extra £450.

Customer/community interaction is so blindingly obvious that I'm surprised that GW's share price didn't implode yesterday when Kirby's idiotic preamble was released.

Editions shouldn't last longer as such but they should be replaced by a living rulebook. Have a massive public beta for a completely new, or at least heavily reworked ruleset (one that isn't written by failed Shakespearean monkeys) and after a year or so of massive and in depth player involvement publish a formalised electronic ruleset for free (perhaps with paid for hard copies with shiney artwork) and most importantly keep it updated, relevant and above all balanced. The 'release' ruleset should be updated periodically to provide a firm benchmark but the living rulebook should go on indefinitely to test new mechanics and make sure that everything is working as intended.

None of this is going to happen.

I have been musing over this and I think GW have got themselves into a real bind. Their cost base is massive compared to other companies because of their shops. They could have offset this with economies of scale but when confronted with the decision of whether to try to keep up profits by selling volume or raising prices they went for price rises. They hoped that their name and reputation would keep people loyal and felt they had a lot of potential price increase to play with.

Now they have considerable competition they are facing major issues, on the one hand they have a larger cost base and on the other they have falling sales.

We all know that they need to address the issue of pricing, they can't go on holding up sales if people feel they can get equivalent products for less and I think (as I ranted earlier) that with the collapse in sales after 7th ed, the Imperial Knight, etc all of which should have been enormous cash cows they must now see that they have to change course.

However, how can they? They've cut to the bone and lost sales so they rely on high prices. If they make cuts they are going to see a massive cut in profits or losses. There is no way they can easily do that unless they can persuade their shareholders to accept a major restructuring. City funds don't want shares in loss making firms.

Alternatively they could literally close their entire shop network but this would go against the whole ethos of the firm and the whole structure they have. Kirby tried to drive people into the shops by hammering independents. Sensible perhaps in the UK where everyone is within a short drive of a GW unless they live in the Outer Hebrides or something, but surely insane in the US.

They are going to need to make some very tough decisions and get it just right or they are dead in the water, trapped into a spiral of having to ramp up prices to offset falling sales, causing falling sales, ad nauseam. All the while shackled to a retail corpse that is increasingly irrelevant in an internet age.

How do they rebalance their prices and boost sales? I would be bold if I was the new CEO, announce a new direction, bring in new ways to interact with the fanbase, introduce a series of promotions: army of the month with 3 for 2 or something. I would look to close shops in marginal areas too, for example in suburbs and satellites of major cities. However, I think it is cross-roads time and I think they need to recruit incredibly carefully. They need someone whose a specialist in turning around failing but potentially salvageable firms.

In the case of the popularity of the Youtube battle report channels...

If you're a 40k fan, but refuse to buy into the tactics that GW have been using for sales lately, it is a way to stay connected to the community and see what's going on, without having to invest any further yourself or hunt around for a gaming store/club.

Just my 2c.

I believe that GW has burnt so many bridges whatever they do will not bring people back. Most people have moved on to other games.

 Chute82 wrote:
Most people have moved on to other games.

Citation Needed.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Most people have moved on to other games.

Citation Needed.

No citation needed, the loss in sales speaks for itself. or did you miss the annual report?

I would love to provide citation but unfortunately GW has surpassed the plebeian need to actually survey or study it's actual market to understand if players are staying, going, or if they even exist. For all we know all GW products are purchased by a colonial era aristocrat ghost as party favors.

Could also link the "why have you left GW and where did you go" thread showing a large exodus of player groups.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/136515-Games-Workshop-Profits-Down-24-CEO-Happy

Some highlights

"At the heart of this new strategy: job cuts and restructuring."

"Kirby also announced his intention to step down as acting CEO. An ad for his replacement will go up the day after Games Workshop's AGM, on September 18th."

As to the question of GW going under, I think that may depend on the new CEO at this point.

Ansel Darach wrote:


As to the question of GW going under, I think that may depend on the new CEO at this point.

A few posters have pointed this out, but many of the issues with GW are more entrenched than just Kirby as CEO. Plus, Kirby is sticking around as chairman, so its not like he won't be influencing decisions.

You'd need to replace more than just one of the jobs Kirby holds to change GW's strategy.

 Yonan wrote:
Could also link the "why have you left GW and where did you go" thread showing a large exodus of player groups.

This is exactly why I started that thread, to document. (It's my inner historian.)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603134.page
I have to say, it would take a lot to bring me back and even then I wouldn't give up my new games.

Yeah the new games have their grip on me and the groups I'm in too and aren't going anywhere in a hurry. Market share is extremely important in this hobby, just as with video games - CoD sells because it's CoD and people know they can get quick multiplayer games with it. New niche titles just fade away unless they can grab and maintain their playerbase to ensure long term multiplayer ability which Dreadball, Deadzone, X-Wing etc have all done. GW still has enough market share to stay but what they've lost they can't get back I don't think - they can stop losing more though if they try damn hard.

It would take a complete renewal of 40k with actually good rules, no more trashing of fluff for short term profit, better pricing and so on for those of us that have severed connection to think about it. All of which requires GW to listen to us which they've just reiterated that they don't do, so... yeah. Let me introduce you to my friend "Buckley".

 MWHistorian wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:
Ultra-capitalism is a terrible thing. It rewards greed and sociopathic behaviors.

I don't see how GW is being rewarded in this case. They're in a decline.

Yes GW is shrinking. Middle management, store operators, and other employees are out of a job.
Customers face rising prices, and shady practices to drive sales. (manipulation of rules, etc.)
The corporate leadership is still going to collect their lion's share no matter what. When it starts to collapse, give yourself an 8 figure severance as you hit the eject button and shout "c ya nerds" to everyone left behind.

A suspicious mind might even suggest Mr. Kirby's moves have been to maximize gains in the short term. What does he care if GW/40k is a pile of ashes 3 years from now? Maybe the ass-kicking he recieved in the Chapter House debacle has soured him to the point of vindictiveness. "If I can't have my way, I'll burn it all down." His attitude and strategy certainly don't appear he has longevity as a priority.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Most people have moved on to other games.

Citation Needed.

No citation needed, the loss in sales speaks for itself. or did you miss the annual report?

Well yes, of course.

Just cite the annual report!

 Alpharius wrote:


Well yes, of course.

Just cite the annual report!

I have already seen claims elsewhere that linking the GW financial statement, or news articles about it, as "anti-GW hate". Literal facts of the companies health are now "hate".

I don't like completely discounting peoples opinions and viewpoints, but sometimes there's no choice when they completely ignore easily digestible facts with obvious causes and ramifications like this. These results are even worse than a lot of us expected, we thought that 7th ed + SMs + IG would have been enough to keep GW going fairly strong - they weren't. If these, GWs top 3 products (right?) couldn't do great things, along with the huge amount of DLC which GW has been trying to push which is basically printing money for anyone (foolish imo) purchasing them then there's no sugar coating it - GW is in trouble.

Davor wrote:
Went to my FGS. Can't put in the L since it's a 1/2 hour drive away. Was shocked to see 6 boxes of Sanctus Reach, I picked it up. I turned it around, saw the $150 price tag and put it down right away. Wanted something 40K, but didn't like the prices. Getting so little for paying so much.

Saw the new Dark Vengeance box set. Picked it up. Saw it was $110. Not bad, but still, pricey. Since I already had it, I can wait to pick it up. Since GW is not offering me anything else to buy, I left the GW section. Maybe I should start a new army. Ooo look the Imperial Knight book. GAH! $60. $170 for one mini? My wife would castrate me.

I went to the other shelf and bought more Star Trek Attack Wing and Star Wars X-Wing. And GW wonders why they are having less sales.

While I maybe be paying the same per cost of mini, I feel like I am getting a better deal with X-Wing and Attack Wing. So money that was about to go to GW went else where.

And GW is still wondering why they are loosing sales. At least my FGS is still getting my money no matter what. Problem is, GW is not now.

That is some expensive prices. I just picked up my own Imperial Knight for $140 and the codex for $40 with the same prices lining up with the site meaning that I paid for both the book and the knight for $10 over what you would pay just for the Knight at the store.

 Palindrome wrote:
I'm not sure if GW can reduce prices in the short term, it may well be the only thing keeping them afloat. What they should do instead is make the price of entry much, much lower. Say a Skirmish type game with 10-20 miniatures a side for £50-60, basically what their competitors make. Even something like a redone Space Crusade would be a great idea. A £50 price tag is far more likely to bring in people than £500 and once people are interested they may well be more inclined to spend the extra £450.

Customer/community interaction is so blindingly obvious that I'm surprised that GW's share price didn't implode yesterday when Kirby's idiotic preamble was released.

Editions shouldn't last longer as such but they should be replaced by a living rulebook. Have a massive public beta for a completely new, or at least heavily reworked ruleset (one that isn't written by failed Shakespearean monkeys) and after a year or so of massive and in depth player involvement publish a formalised electronic ruleset for free (perhaps with paid for hard copies with shiney artwork) and most importantly keep it updated, relevant and above all balanced. The 'release' ruleset should be updated periodically to provide a firm benchmark but the living rulebook should go on indefinitely to test new mechanics and make sure that everything is working as intended.

None of this is going to happen.

Ha, I almost wrote up the same idea in the GW Financial Results thread.

DrRansom's plan to save GW...

1) Develop a Kill Team Skirmish game ASAP, using existing models and a rule-set that points towards a small scale skirmish game. Game should be priced competitively but still profitably and should be sold as many places as possible. After the game is released, start releasing mission packs which expand upon the initial skirmish. This is a short term plan to begin rebuilding the player base.

2) Release minimalist versions of codices and rulebooks, think 5 to 10 dollar codex. No fluff, no artwork, just rules. Offer package deals for new rules and new units, say 50% off Stormtrooper codex when you buy Stormtrooper command and transport. This allows people to quickly and easily expand their collection without lowering the prices of models . You defend the model margin and gain goodwill by cutting codex costs.

3) Announce a global price decrease on core infantry and vehicles, e.g. Tactical Squads and Rhinos. While the units shouldn't be loss-leaders, they should instead be low margin cheap boxes which get sold in volume and encourage players to buy heavy units, with higher margins, to complete the army. Future infantry squads should be designed so that players can buy add-on 'flavor' packages for them. E.g. buy a low cost Tactical Squad and a 'boarding-team' add-on which has new arms for the squad, with shotguns and shields. The Add-On can be high margin single packages.

4) Spend 6 months developing a new large scale game, e.g. hire the old GW developers. Once the initial development is complete, announce it publically as the eternal edition and spend a year developing it via test games at every major board game convention. WH40k is one of the few games out there with the awesome large scale units, this rule set should fully embrace that and streamline the game. This public development stage should also form a chance to build a GW network for FLGS, especially in the US. Eliminate small stores and concentrate on "battle bunkers" and regional sales / hype teams. The regional teams would be responsible for establishing tournaments, painting competitions, and demonstration games (with swag) at local independent stores.

Ideally when all is complete, there is a fun, quick, and very cinematic game to get new players excited and entertain experience players with small tactical missions. Then there is the larger game with cheap infantry, to start suck people into building armies. The real margin comes with the tanks, walkers, and fliers, against which no other company can complete. The large game rule-set is designed to scale nicely between medium and large matches and lets players field massive armies regularly without difficulty. Regional teams let GW build a network and connect with the player base, without having to own anything other than a few large stores in key urban centers.