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 Leth wrote:
As long as nothing signifcant has happened I usually have no problem going back.

That's how I play it. If it's non-trivial to retrace our steps, then I'm not going to allow a fallback. If it's something simple that doesn't have spillover effects then whatever, go ahead and do it.

If it's a tournament setting, I'm a bit more harsh. In the case of the OP's example: If you skip over your psychic phase by accident and start moving your dudes, I'm not going to allow you a take-back. One aspect of competitive play is how you perform under pressure, and if you start forgetting to invoke abilities, or start skipping things by accident, then tough gak.

I hate to draw the comparison, but I think tournaments are for your A-Game.

You wouldn't expect a Magic Circuit player to let someone take back a miscalculated creature summon.

You wouldn't expect a professional sports team to let the other guys take back a bad play.

There isn't really professional warhammer, but at the same time Tournament circuits are as high a prize as we can claim. I expect my opponents to bring their best game, and I try to bring mine.

In fact, I think it's probably lame of a player to ask their opponent to let them have a do-over, because now it puts the onus on the opponent to be a nice guy or play within his own expectations of winning.

Where do you draw the line though? Forgetting a rule of your own unit is very different to forgetting a phase.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

You wouldn't expect a professional sports team to let the other guys take back a bad play.

Taking this as an example, look at road cycling. It is considered very bad form to to attack the race leader, or anyone you are racing against at that time, if there is an accident or mechanical problem that slows them. There are many examples thought professional sport of similar good sporting behavior where you don't abuse every single error or fault.

Whilst it is not possible to prove both players forgot a phase, it is also something you should point out if your opponent forgets and you notice. Rules for individual units is much more down to the player to know their own rules.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Where do you draw the line though? Forgetting a rule of your own unit is very different to forgetting a phase.

Why do we need a line? If you forgot a phase you forgot a phase. Maybe losing a game because of a stupid mistake like that will prevent you from making it in the future.

(Now, your opponent is obviously free to offer to let you go back and fix the mistake, but you should never think that you are entitled to do so.)

If it's a tournament, I don't say anything. If it's a friendly game, or an event-prep/practice game, I make sure to tell them.

Convictus wrote:
If it's a tournament, I don't say anything. If it's a friendly game, or an event-prep/practice game, I make sure to tell them.

I 100% agree with this.

Freindly games are a whole other story because you are trying to figure everything out and work out all the kinks. Tournament means you better bring your A game and you better know your army inside and out, forward and backwards, and everything else.

I shouldnt have to hold your hand in a competitive environment.

You shouldn't, but if you intentionally skip a non-optional rule such as a whole phase, you're not being "professional" either. What if it was the complete assault phase- your opponent forgot about it because the models in combat are all behind LOS-blocking terrain.

If you know it should occur, and it's NON-optional (like the entire assault phase!) and you let your opponent end his turn without doing it, you're not playing the game correctly either. I'm trying to avoid the "c" word (cheating), but if you intentionally let a mandatory/automatic event pass, you are right there. It's terrible form, regardless.

MTG has rulings around what they call "Failure to maintain game state." What this means is that when there's a mandatory action (such as what I assume Hatred is in WHFB) it's the responsibility of both players to make sure it's done.

Skipping a phase where there's no mandatory actions however is just fine. Edit: in 40k at least there are mandatory actions in the Psyker/magic phase, so skipping it entirely would be a failure to maintain game state.

If the fellow wouldn't allow you to redo the combat using hatred I wouldn't have allowed him to wander back to his psychic phase. If he had to ask I would assume he started shooting already. It's a common courtesy thing. Having said that at a tournament I'm very much reluctant to allow do overs to veteran players. Consequently I don't generally ask for do overs for myself. The new guy on his 3rd game, sure.

rigeld2 wrote:
MTG has rulings around what they call "Failure to maintain game state." What this means is that when there's a mandatory action (such as what I assume Hatred is in WHFB) it's the responsibility of both players to make sure it's done.

Skipping a phase where there's no mandatory actions however is just fine. Edit: in 40k at least there are mandatory actions in the Psyker/magic phase, so skipping it entirely would be a failure to maintain game state.

That's a very useful analogy, thanks rigeld.

 RiTides wrote:
You shouldn't, but if you intentionally skip a non-optional rule such as a whole phase, you're not being "professional" either. What if it was the complete assault phase- your opponent forgot about it because the models in combat are all behind LOS-blocking terrain.

If you know it should occur, and it's NON-optional (like the entire assault phase!) and you let your opponent end his turn without doing it, you're not playing the game correctly either. I'm trying to avoid the "c" word (cheating), but if you intentionally let a mandatory/automatic event pass, you are right there. It's terrible form, regardless.

I see your point. The thing is that using the example of the Assault phase is a shared phase that we both take primary actions in. So you are correct in that if he forgets and I remember but I know I will lose the fight then I would consider myself cheating for not bringing it up.

However, the magic phase is his responsibility and he takes the primary actions which I react to unlike the assault phase as mentioned above where we both take primary actions against each other. Is it a non-optional phase? Yes, I agree whole heartedly. But it is YOUR non-optional phase that YOU are required to take the primary action in. If you just bypass it then whether you forgot or didn't have anything to do then that is YOUR choice on YOUR turn. You should take full responsibility of your turn, if I have to remind you then again, I am holding your hand.

rigeld2 wrote:
MTG has rulings around what they call "Failure to maintain game state." What this means is that when there's a mandatory action (such as what I assume Hatred is in WHFB) it's the responsibility of both players to make sure it's done.

Skipping a phase where there's no mandatory actions however is just fine. Edit: in 40k at least there are mandatory actions in the Psyker/magic phase, so skipping it entirely would be a failure to maintain game state.

That is a very good rule and if this was MTG then I would change my stance. This is not MTG and to the best of my knowledge there is no rule like that in Fantasy rule book. So yes I agree a good analogy but since the OP stated that the rules would be followed strictly from the fantasy rule book it is nothing more than an analogy in this instance.

The rulebook does give a suggestion.

It says if your opponent misses a step, remind him politely. If you miss a step, don't be a beggar, just move on.

I think the concept is you are both looking out for each other.

For me personally if I miss something I usually play on. The more it hurts to have forgotten it or not known a rule well, the more likely I am to remember it next time.

Nice post, Boyofdestiny205. Very nice to see someone consider both sides.

And you make a great point about rules. Given the reactions here, I think a "failure to maintain game state" might be a tournament packet rule TOs should consider. If this TO had included that, it would make it clear he was expecting both players to remember mandatory / automatic / NON-optional events, where possible.

 Boyofdestiny205 wrote:
That is a very good rule and if this was MTG then I would change my stance. This is not MTG and to the best of my knowledge there is no rule like that in Fantasy rule book. So yes I agree a good analogy but since the OP stated that the rules would be followed strictly from the fantasy rule book it is nothing more than an analogy in this instance.

I didn't present it as anything but an analogy and an answer as to what I would do.
I'd consider skipping it to be a failure to maintain game state and make sure it happened. If I accidentally forgot something (and so did you) and we hadn't progressed very far (ie it's easy to roll back to where we forgot) then we should roll back. If we had progressed too far it's both of our mistakes (for mandatory rules).

I'm not required to remind you to use grenades against my MCs, so I won't. But I am required to make sure you pile in and get more attacks than you would if you didn't.

Brandens wrote:
Hello! I was playing in a Warhammer Fantasy tournament. It was described by the organizer as a "100% competitive tournament that follows only the rules of the Warhammer Fantasy Rule book". I was playing Empire and had a unit with hated so that they reroll to hits, but I forgot about it until after the combat was over. I asked if I could reroll those dice I didn't do and he said no. My opponent then forgot the magic phase when he went straight to shooting, so in response to what he did first I did not give it to him. There were about 40 of us playing.

The tournament organizer heard about this, and said if I ever not give someone their phase they forgot, that I will be kicked out of the tournament and banned because it is "someone that is completely inappropriate to do in a competitive game, is unfair because it can cost someone a game,and completely unrealistic because wizards don't just forget to cast on the battlefield. He said pretty much the same thing to the other guy.

What do you guys think? Most tournaments I have been to forbid not letting someone have a phase or rule they forgot about because of realism purposes and competitive purposes. Do the rules in the book say anything about this?

If you forget a phase, screw you, your fault, you are to blame for it. You can only hope for your opponent's generosity.

in a competitive tournament, you are 100% in the right to make an opponent pay the cost for

******making a tactical mistake*****

that is the the whole fething point of "competitive" play where it is supposed to emphasise player *skill*

being able to remember what to do is the most basic "table stakes" of a skilled general, a general who needs to be reminded of the basic rules is not as good a general as one who doesnt forget them.

and yes, very much in real life generals/wizards/ect do have DERP moments where they forget to do stuff, and yes it does very much cost them battles...

thats the whole point, its completly fluffy and realistic for a game or real war to be lost because the general forgot something.

as for the whole "I hold you accountable for your mistake, but dont want to be held accountable for my mistake" its just hypocracy and unsportsmanlike in the extreme.

You should NEVER try to apply the rules one way for yourself and another way for your opponent to your favour.

I have to agree, in a competitive setting, remembering stuff is a big part of the rules. Even had he not been forbidden from the re-roll earlier (which was the right call in a tournament), I would be disinclined to allow the phase to be re-done if we had gone on from it.

In a friendly game I think it's different.

I disagree that it's the right call in a tournament - both players are supposed to remember mandatory actions. If it's an optional reroll, sure - you snooze you lose. But mandatory actions should always be enforced.

I think that's the point- the OP's situation should never come up because both players are supposed to remember basic things like game phases. If you skip it, you're honestly both at fault.

Army special rules are another thing simply because your opponent may not know those. But basic rules like completing all the phases of a turn? I think the TO was right to be upset at both players (not just one) and to tell them that's not acceptable at his event.

 RiTides wrote:
Army special rules are another thing simply because your opponent may not know those. But basic rules like completing all the phases of a turn? I think the TO was right to be upset at both players (not just one) and to tell them that's not acceptable at his event.

And if the game hasn't really progressed too far and the OP remembers his rule and mentions it, it's the responsibility of both players to attempt to roll back and do that mandatory action.

I would say that all depends on how far the game has progressed... basic good sportsmanship on both sides. If it's too cumbersome to do it, both should agree to just remember for the next turn or the like... but if it's easy, I often let my opponent do something they forgot, even in a tournament setting (which is actually where I get a decent amount of my games).

There's nothing different about a tournament game, for me- all games, fun, league, tourney, are competitive. I understand where folks are coming from but if you remind your opponent of his Mandatory phase, you wouldn't be in this dilemma to begin with. That's the best way to go, imo, and I think that's why the TO was upset.

RiTides wrote:I would say that all depends on how far the game has progressed... basic good sportsmanship on both sides. If it's too cumbersome to do it, both should agree to just remember for the next turn or the like... but if it's easy, I often let my opponent do something they forgot, even in a tournament setting (which is actually where I get a decent amount of my games).

There's nothing different about a tournament game, for me- all games, fun, league, tourney, are competitive. I don't really care about prizes, I want to have a good time. I understand where folks are coming from but if you remind your opponent of his Mandatory phase, you wouldn't be in this dilemma to begin with.

rigeld2 wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Army special rules are another thing simply because your opponent may not know those. But basic rules like completing all the phases of a turn? I think the TO was right to be upset at both players (not just one) and to tell them that's not acceptable at his event.

And if the game hasn't really progressed too far and the OP remembers his rule and mentions it, it's the responsibility of both players to attempt to roll back and do that mandatory action.

So you agree with exactly what I said? :-)

Personally, our group runs the rule: "No time travel." If something is done wrong, we just move on, no matter who the error favoured... unless it was because it's a new unit someone is trying out and they're not used to it, and it's not more than one action later.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of re-dos... it's just hard to pull off. So, that's all I meant. Much better to pay attention and avoid the situation entirely.

I once asked a wrestling coach how best to get out of a half nelson hold. His answer? Don't get put in one! To apply it here, don't let your opponent skip an entire phase in the first place. If you know your rules well enough, it should never, ever happen in a game you're participating in.

This is not "his rule", this is a game phase you both participate in (you get the chance to dispel remains in play spells and the like, too), and isn't optional. It's reasonable to ask both players to remember something that basic.

 RiTides wrote:
I think that's the point- the OP's situation should never come up because both players are supposed to remember basic things like game phases. If you skip it, you're honestly both at fault.

But, unless I'm missing something about WHFB compared to 40k, there's nothing illegal about "skipping" a phase by having nothing to do during that phase and immediately moving on to the next thing. For example, I very commonly "skip" the assault phase because I play a shooting army that never declares charges. Technically the phase still happens, it just begins as soon as shooting concludes and immediately ends when I say "your turn". And it sounds like that's what happened in the OP, the OP's opponent finished moving and started shooting, implying "I have nothing to do in the psychic phase, end of phase". The fact that they actually should have done some stuff during that phase if they wanted to win the game doesn't make it an illegal game state.

And since MTG has been brought up there's a similar rule in that game. You're allowed to skip parts of the turn where nothing is happening, and everyone knows, for example, that "your turn" means "I enter and immediately end all remaining steps of my turn", even if you don't explicitly state that you're starting those steps. You aren't going to get a "failure to maintain a legal game state" penalty because you skipped your combat step on a turn in which you have no creatures to attack with. And if you try to appeal to "but it wouldn't be legal to skip my combat step" when you say "your turn" and then realize that you did have something you wanted to attack with you'd be laughed out of the tournament.

 Peregrine wrote:
And since MTG has been brought up there's a similar rule in that game. You're allowed to skip parts of the turn where nothing is happening, and everyone knows, for example, that "your turn" means "I enter and immediately end all remaining steps of my turn", even if you don't explicitly state that you're starting those steps. You aren't going to get a "failure to maintain a legal game state" penalty because you skipped your combat step on a turn in which you have no creatures to attack with. And if you try to appeal to "but it wouldn't be legal to skip my combat step" when you say "your turn" and then realize that you did have something you wanted to attack with you'd be laughed out of the tournament.

The difference (that I pointed out) is that if there's a mandatory action (like, say, you have creatures that are forced to attack) and you attempt to skip your combat phase, you aren't allowed to. You can get an illegal game state warning for doing so.
There are mandatory actions in the psychic phase. You can't choose to skip something that's mandatory.

so if neither side has psykers, you are breaking rules if you dont both roll a d6 for power dice and recolve the 0 powers...

there are no mandatory action in 40k like in MTG... there are things you are supposed to, or "must" do but its not the same as MTG, they are two very VERY different beasts.

if you cannot go back and do your "mandatory" re rolls, or extra attacks or reserve rolls if you forget, then you cannot go back to do anything else either.

takes a big tactical part of the game off the table if you are REQUIRED to remind your opponent that they have X Y Z bonus "mandatory" re rolls/extra attacks/ect.. that necron general should know damn well he gets a bonus on 6's to hit with tesla, its not my job to know it, and its not fair for him to be reminded by me or any other back seat general.

knowing the rules, and remembering them, and executing your actions to include them is pretty much THE core of tactics in a rules based game.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
In a Tournament setting, it is the responsibility of the player to remember his rules. If they forget to do a phase, that is on them. If they lose the game because of it, that is their fault. It's easy to think of Warhammer, 40k specifically because that is what I play, as your soldiers. Your army. You are in command of the models and in charge of their movement and attacks. If a commander of something that matters forgets to call in artillery in war, artillery isn't called in. They don't call a cease-fire to go back to shooting artillery at one another. Even in a game, especially where the goal is to win and win more, the player should remember how to play the game correctly. They mess up, it's their fault. I know there are rules in 40k that state something has to be done at a specific time and if missed or forgotten, they can not be done retroactively. Jink is a good example. I like those rules.

In a casual game, that's where sportsmanship comes into play. Reminding a player or even going back to hit something forgotten. Especially with new armies or even newer players.

I agree, but remember, a tournament should still have sportsmanship play an important part. It's supposed to be a contest between the best the participants can do, not an all out killfest. Yes, the objective is to win, but one should not get heated or sour over these kinds of things. Also, I think a good caveat would be for tournaments to implicitly put in a rule such as "If you forget a phase, sorry, no re-dos" or "If you forget a reserve roll or special rule, ask for a judge's opinion". I feel a TO's say or a flat denial at said competitive tournament would squash most of these issues.

 easysauce wrote:
takes a big tactical part of the game off the table if you are REQUIRED to remind your opponent that they have X Y Z bonus "mandatory" re rolls/extra attacks/ect.. that necron general should know damn well he gets a bonus on 6's to hit with tesla, its not my job to know it, and its not fair for him to be reminded by me or any other back seat general.

Cheating is not tactics. If a rule says "you must do X" then you must do it, and it is illegal to "forget". By not reminding your opponent (assuming you are aware of their mistake) you are allowing the rules to be broken so that you gain an advantage, a pretty good definition of cheating.