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So, I started to read the clan Raukaan supplement and was perplexed. I understood that some people who played IH prior were upset and can begin to see why. When I was reading information regarding IH it seemed like they were a unique breed of space marines. Space marines that were independent and strong. Mechanical in nature and execution. It felt like a different chapter. I was really excited about the notion of playing the IH and was looking forward to buying and building a company in bulk. However, after reading the supplement, I can't help but feel like they took everything that was great about it and made them generic. Sure you have the 6+ FNP and are great at fixing things, but I can't help but feel like I'm playing SM flavor 26-FE. I would've liked it if I could field this picture



I guess this is a bit of a vent/question for anyone here. If you were at your local gaming club and someone brought forth this company as is. Would you play against them or would you insist that they adhere to the current codex/supplement?
How would you field an Iron Father? What rules/book can one use to explain justify it?

Thanks for your 2 cents.

Iron Hands really deserved better.

I read the title as 'Iron FETHers'

I thought you were pissed about iron warriors or iron hands or something.

It might be me, but what in that picture is different, outside of the scouts being the tenth squad of a battle company rather than in their own?

I can't see anything that wouldn't be possible to field, especially with the possibility of multiple CADs we have in 7th now?

As for Iron Fathers, would Master Of The Forge with some shiny toys work, or have I missed something there too?

All the veteran unit Sergeants have Terminator armor.

Iron Hand's should have been much more and it's a shame GW didn't do more. Iron Hands optimize their bionics for their roles. In FW's Badab war the Sons of Medusa Devastator's bionics are reinforced with armor making them T5. Other descriptions of optimizations include Devastators able to fire on the move and Assault marines using lightened bionics to make greater jumps.

I'm not saying Iron Hands deserve everything under the sun but I think some varied bionics or the ability to upgrade them would have been simple enough and would have brought far more flavor.

 aka_mythos wrote:
All the veteran unit Sergeants have Terminator armor.

Iron Hand's should have been much more and it's a shame GW didn't do more. Iron Hands optimize their bionics for their roles. In FW's Badab war the Sons of Medusa Devastator's bionics are reinforced with armor making them T5. Other descriptions of optimizations include Devastators able to fire on the move and Assault marines using lightened bionics to make greater jumps.

I'm not saying Iron Hands deserve everything under the sun but I think some varied bionics or the ability to upgrade them would have been simple enough and would have brought far more flavor.

This is what I mean. I think a better job can be done to make each chapter more unique. Iron hands have such potential. I really feel like it didn't live up. I'm not saying that IH should have access to T5 relentless FNP devastator. I'm saying that it feels like all SM are the same but with different colors and the odd rule here and there.

I'd like to see each chapter get more of a fluffy rules and specialized bonuses.
Iron hands - pay for FNP, terminator sergeants, specialized bionics
Raven Guard - scoring assault units, better scouts, bonuses on night fighting cheaper lighting claws
Salamander- 're roll flame attacks as standard, cheaper melta and flamer, fire drakes
White scars- no dreadnoughts, discounts on bikes and keep current chapter rules
etc.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with it, as long as they had a chat with me about how they'd modified their codex to allow for it.

But then, I like the idea of 'homebrew for awesome'. So if a guy wants to spent an extra fifteen or twenty points upgrading his sergeants with Terminator Armour, or give his Company Commander a Servo-arm, I'm fine with that.

Doen't Iron Hands hate dreadnoughts for being support to weak flesh , making it more or less impossible for a marine to become all metal ?

Makumba wrote:
Doen't Iron Hands hate dreadnoughts for being support to weak flesh , making it more or less impossible for a marine to become all metal ?

No, or if they do it's one hell of a retcon, according to the Iron Hand's Index Astartes article: "The ultimate aim for Iron Hands Marines is to become mind-fused with the body of a hulking Dreadnought - the perfect blend of organic and mechanic."

The supplement was absolutely horrible on many levels. It retconned most of what was amazing and unique about the Iron Hands.
Altough I will have to admit that the story with that Slaaneshi deamon was kinda nice.

Having read one of the old books, bionics and such where a huge thing for them and dreadnought was considered a true honour. To become almost one with the machine, no weak flesh just the strength of a caerdamite hull tough as a tank at your perfect control.

Tissues, aisle 10.

Ah yes, because then we could have a Nurgle Counts as Codex because Space Marines just deserve to have T5 FNP units everywhere as well.

devastator. I'm saying that it feels like all SM are the same but with different colors and the odd rule here and there.

Because that's what they are, sure you have some re-named units here and there, but all in all you generally aren't exactly odd compared to the other chapters.

giving all sergents terminator armor sounds nice until you realize you can't pack your squads into rhinos or razorbacks.

I think of all the Space Marine loyalists Iron Hands should play more distinctively than the other first founding chapters in C:SM. The supplement was obviously the opportunity to do that but is at best just a chapter specific relic list.

Talking about chaos is a bit out of place here simply because chaos is treated poorly too and two wrongs don't make it right.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think of all the Space Marine loyalists Iron Hands should play more distinctively than the other first founding chapters in C:SM. The supplement was obviously the opportunity to do that but is at best just a chapter specific relic list.

Talking about chaos is a bit out of place here simply because chaos is treated poorly too and two wrongs don't make it right.

That the book isn't the overall Iron Hands, but a specific clan within the Iron Hands they may just be one of the odder clans out.

Nah about the treated poorly, I'm just amused when Space Marines think they are just really that different from each other chapter.

BrianDavion wrote:
giving all sergents terminator armor sounds nice until you realize you can't pack your squads into rhinos or razorbacks.

The chart above only shows the veteran squads with Terminator sergeants. That's Sternguard and Vanguard... So really just Sternguard which are gonna tend to be deployed by drop pod or footslog.


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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think of all the Space Marine loyalists Iron Hands should play more distinctively than the other first founding chapters in C:SM. The supplement was obviously the opportunity to do that but is at best just a chapter specific relic list.

Talking about chaos is a bit out of place here simply because chaos is treated poorly too and two wrongs don't make it right.

That the book isn't the overall Iron Hands, but a specific clan within the Iron Hands they may just be one of the odder clans out.

Nah about the treated poorly, I'm just amused when Space Marines think they are just really that different from each other chapter.

There is just a dissonance between their fluff which describes specific abilities that they don't get in any form. I used the example before where the fluff describes different bionic optimizations where some Iron Hands devastators are able to shoot heavy weapons on the moves while others have optimized their bionic eyes with better targetters. Or assault marines with bionics optimized for weight reduction so they could jump further. Maybe those things should be reatricted to the veteran units but it makes them more distinctive than many other chapters.

It might not be the overall chapter but it makes little sense to use the opportunity to better characterize the chapter to instead emphasize the most generic clan. The whole point is that it's an opportunity wasted.

It seems mostly like an issue of gameplay vs fluff. The strength of a codex varies a lot from codex to codex and adding sub-groups to each codex will only add to the complication of creating a balanced system. Not to mention the time it would add to the development. GW wants to keep the new products rolling.

To really be closer to the fluff would require a whole codex while a supplement is just that, a supplement to the main codex. And I don't think people would want more codex marine books in addition to Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Space Marines. I do agree that Raukaan could have been a lot better.

The Forgeworld HH legions are pretty good at making a system that is reasonably balanced but diverse and respectful to each legion's play style. The reason for this is that there is a core set of units that every army has access to and make up the majority of every legions army. This core set of units adds a huge degree of balance and creates some level of consistency from legion to legion. Then you add in Rites of War which modify how you can play the core units. Then add in Legions which modify the abilities of those units, allowing access to a few special units and gear, plus a legion specific rite of war. The variety is really in how the army is played instead of what models are taken.

Here are some of the Legion Iron Hand rules.
All shooting attacks against non-vehicles models are at -1 strength (IE bolters count as S3 against them).
Iron Hands can't voluntarily go to ground.
Iron Hands have to take a leadership test to run or attempt to sweep.
Iron Hands can't have more Jump, bike, or jet bike units than regular infantry units.
Iron Hands also have access to 2 special units that are similar to core units but have a 5+ FNP and cost a little more.
Iron Hand characters can take a piece of wargear that increases Invul Saves by +1 to a max of 3++
Iron Hands can also take an Iron Father which is an upgrade to the CM equivalent but gives him a servo-arm, the ability to repair vehicles, and a 6+ FNP.

Having multiple chapters with the same units and different paint schemes kind of takes away from the uniqueness of picking a chapter. Playing red marines vs purple marines is lackluster. I understand that GW gave chapters different bonuses. I feel that the main purpose of the bonuses are to emphasize and steer players to play the chapter in a way that's more fluffy, and a better job can be done for it.

There are tons of IG/AM players that would pick up a book, read about the Cadians and say "I want that." Then they go out and buy the models, paint them, and relive the battles that they enjoyed so much. It makes the hobby that much more enjoyable. Even though someone can play IG there are so many variants of it. You can play: Elysian, Cadian, Catachan, etc. The same should be with SM. Each chapter should should feel different. Don't get me wrong. Some do but I feel like a better job can be done. Creating 6 relics, 6 warlord traits, 3 rules and asking for almost a codex worth in costs doesn't feel right. This is not a rant that's specific with just SM. It's more along the lines of how supplements don't bring anything to the table.

It doesn't need to be broken or rebuilt ground up. I just feel a better job can be done. Why can't it mirror the game play of FW? I feel that the HH was done really well. It appears balanced and each Legion seems to stand out as a unique legion with its own playstyle (despite that fact that you're playing essentially space marines).

What I'd like to see are more rules that are based around the actual established fluff. Rules that adjust tactics depending on which SM chapter you play and this doesn't exclude all the other factions of 40k. Bring out the deamon primarchs! Create supplements with formations that reward players for rebuilding themed lists and make it so that there's a point to getting the supplements and advise people on how to make fluffy lists that reward people who take that time to get to know the armies they play.

Heck, it would go hand in hand with BL book sales. Want to play the Exorcists? Here is the chapter and how it's organized. There are the battle companies, squads and rules. Here are certain units that you can take and armies that you can ally with and can't ally with (expanding on the FOC). Here are some relics, weapons, and ammendments to the SM book. Here is a reason for you to invest in these models, this supplement and these books.