Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi there,

so ive taken a look at the Necron FAQ for gloom prisms and had a quick question or two. First of all, here's the wording:

"A canoptek spyder with a gloom prism and all friendly units within 3" of it have a +2 to their deny the witch rolls".

________

So here's my questions. Both of which assume the spyder unit consists of 3 spyders two of whom have gloom prisms.

A) Do these stack for any nearby unit, so that instead of having Deny the Witch on a 6+ they have it on a 2+?
(I would think RAW they do stack, with natural 1s always being fails).

B) Do the other spyders in the unit gain the benefit of other spyders in the unit in a stacking kind of way? i.e. even if others nearby get a 2+ deny, do the spyders only ever get a 4+, or can they also benefit from their fellow man and get a 2+?
(RAW it doesnt look like fellow spyders do benefit, although this seems more like an oversight).

You cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. So they would not stack.

They don't stack. As long as you have 'a gloom prism' within range you get the benefits. Do two or three gloom prisms meet the requirement of 'a gloom prism'? Yes.

Its not a special rule though. Or at least not like 'gains stealth' or something. In the case of gaining stealth, it doesnt stack your right.

In this case though, surely it's more akin to standard bonuses; like if a warboss with a Lucky Stikk (granting +1WS) was added to a squad of nobs with a waagh banner (also grants +1WS). It's not like the second piece of wargear gets made redundant, you stack the bonuses. Surely no?

 xandermacleod wrote:
Its not a special rule though. Or at least not like 'gains stealth' or something. In the case of gaining stealth, it doesnt stack your right.

In this case though, surely it's more akin to standard bonuses; like if a warboss with a Lucky Stikk (granting +1WS) was added to a squad of nobs with a waagh banner (also grants +1WS). It's not like the second piece of wargear gets made redundant, you stack the bonuses. Surely no?

It is a special rule. It bends or breaks the basic DTW rule.

Xandermacleod,
Special Rules and War-gear which Modify Characteristics have permission to stack, as the Rule for Modifying Characteristics state these type of modifications stack.
Special Rules and War-gear which modify something else, such as Deny the Witch Rolls, have to find permission elsewhere as such Rules do not have permission to stack by default.

JinxDragon wrote:
Xandermacleod,
Special Rules and War-gear which Modify Characteristics have permission to stack, as the Rule for Modifying Characteristics state these type of modifications stack.

Can you cite the rule that allows the same Special rules that modify Characteristics to stack for me ?

The Modifiers and Multiple Modifier section, where it informs us how to apply modifiers to characteristics, but I am sure that wasn't the nature of your question. To address that possible nature directly, you are correct that I should have been more precise in my wording. It does reads as if I am stating all Special Rules which modify characteristics have permission to stack, regardless of what the Special Rule is, up to and including stacking with themselves. However I was directly addressing Xandermacleod, whom questioned why two identical modifiers to a Characteristic have permission to stack as if it was the modifiers themselves which matter.

So let me restate so the quote reads properly out of context and within:
Different Special Rules and War-gear which Modify Characteristics have permission to stack....

xandermacleod wrote:(I would think RAW they do stack, with natural 1s always being fails).

Though this does not answer your question, natural 1's are not always fails, only in some cases.

On topic: The gloom Prism is an upgrade, a piece of Wargear. Last time I checked, there's nothing telling me I can't stack Wargear. There's something to tell me Special Rules don't stack. (Unless I missed something?) Though I'm sure the RAI was just a +2, I am, at the moment, seeing it as +2 for each. This is only because I would have thought that they would state multiple pieces of wargear with the same name/effect do not stack.

Ond Angel,
Where does it state in the Rulebook that War-gear can stack with itself?

JinxDragon wrote:
Ond Angel,
Where does it state in the Rulebook that War-gear can stack with itself?

Nowhere that I can tell.
The only reason I can see it this way is due to the fact that they tell us the same special rules do not stack, but do not tell us the same thing about Wargear. Of course, I most likely am wrong on this interpretation, I don't deny that.
I wouldn't play it as the same wargear stacks, mind you.

Actually from my reading I can't find anything about getting a modifier to deny the witch from wargear anywhere. The only rules I found for modifying dice rolls say you apply the modifiers....

Ond Angel,
If it is not in the Rulebook, or other source material, then permission to do so has not been granted.

Gravmyr,
A Special Rule within the Codex, stating it can modify a Deny the Witch Roll, has permission to modify the Roll as the Rulebook allow advanced Rules from such sources to function.

So Gloom Prism cannot modify DtW rolls at all?

JinxDragon wrote:
Ond Angel,
If it is not in the Rulebook, or other source material, then permission to do so has not been granted.

That does make sense. Otherwise there is nothing to stop an opponent from applying a -X modifier to all of my dice rolls because "the rules don't say I can't".
Also, I read in the special rules section (seeing if they'd hidden something wargear related there) I did see why they added the "special rules don't stack. Ever" part.
I do retract my previous statement and interpretation of Wargear stacking.

Gravmyr,
Sorry if I wasn't so clear, I edit and re-edit posts to try and get what I am saying across because I know my communication skills are not the best but sometime I still fail it seems....

The Rulebook grants us permission to apply Rules from other Game Workshop sources, so a piece of war-gear from a Codex that does X has permission to do X. In this case the Rule allocated to the War-gear states to add 2 to the dice Roll or Test, so we are required to modify the dice Roll or Test by adding 2 to it. This is why the Rule for Deny the Witch states a 6+ is a successful Deny, because it is written to allow modifications to take the Result/Test higher then 6.

This is starting to sound more and more like the power stacking argument. In the end what this will come down to is with permission you can add +2 to a roll. People have permission but there is no limit put anywhere based off of it. I agree and believe a +2 is max but this will require a discussion with your opponent.....

 Ond Angel wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Ond Angel,
Where does it state in the Rulebook that War-gear can stack with itself?

Nowhere that I can tell.
The only reason I can see it this way is due to the fact that they tell us the same special rules do not stack, but do not tell us the same thing about Wargear. Of course, I most likely am wrong on this interpretation, I don't deny that.
I wouldn't play it as the same wargear stacks, mind you.

If your piece of wargear gives you an ability that would bend or break the normal rules, then the wargear has given you a special rule.

If we are going to argue stack/no stack, lets return to the rule itself:

 xandermacleod wrote:
all friendly units within 3" of it have a +2 to their deny the witch rolls

I believe this is quite clear: ALL units have a +2
If you tried to stack the rule, ALL units would have a +4. But that's not what the rule says: they all have +2

Therefore it will simply not stack, whether we go by characteristic stack, Special rule stacks or any other method

Luckily the wording here is "they have +2 to the roll" and not "their roll is increased by +2"

This is the entire "Does Cursed Earth stack?" discussion all over again...

That's the one I was thinking of.