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Do you mind me asking why you don't like the 'pick what you want' style? Is it too much like gw's unbound? For fluff reasons? Or is it more challenging to make lists?

The Icestorm booklet has a section called "Beyond zicestorm", where they suggest models to beef up the force to 300 pts. I'm already packed so can't check, but ITS remember there,s an auxilia and a jotum suggested for Pan O, whereas there's an Iguana suggested for Nomads.

 Eggs wrote:
Do you mind me asking why you don't like the 'pick what you want' style? Is it too much like gw's unbound? For fluff reasons? Or is it more challenging to make lists?

The funny thing is I'm not actually too fussed by Unbound. While it says "Unbound" on the tin, you still have the penalties of the Allies Charts to offset the sillier crap.

When it comes down to the vanilla lists, it simply feels too messy. A list quickly loses any focused theme or aesthetic given that they went out of their way to make each Sectorial have a "unique flavor" to them. A paint job can only do so much in that case when you have wildly differing styles.

What's more, the supposed limitations of a Sectorial are quickly offset with vanilla.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alkasyn wrote:
The Icestorm booklet has a section called "Beyond zicestorm", where they suggest models to beef up the force to 300 pts. I'm already packed so can't check, but ITS remember there,s an auxilia and a jotum suggested for Pan O, whereas there's an Iguana suggested for Nomads.

Those are kind of awful suggestions and make me think they just picked randomly out of a hat or just decided to suggest TAGs and for whatever reason an Auxilia.

 Red Harvest wrote:
... And this is a discussion for a different thread. Feel free to start one. Or you can read what others have had to say on the subject. Here on the soon to be closed official forums
http://infinitythegame.com/forum/index.php?/topic/12389-sexual-objectification-in-infinity/

Edit: to add that I hope any discussion here will at least be civil, given that this forum is moderated.

Yes, those are all good suggestions.

Let's stay on topic here.

Thanks!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
The Icestorm booklet has a section called "Beyond zicestorm", where they suggest models to beef up the force to 300 pts. I'm already packed so can't check, but ITS remember there,s an auxilia and a jotum suggested for Pan O, whereas there's an Iguana suggested for Nomads.

Those are kind of awful suggestions and make me think they just picked randomly out of a hat or just decided to suggest TAGs and for whatever reason an Auxilia.

Maybe they just picked random items from a list of stuff that they thought needed to sell more?

Maybe I'm being too cynical there, but it sounds plausible.

 Kanluwen wrote:
When it comes down to the vanilla lists, it simply feels too messy. A list quickly loses any focused theme or aesthetic given that they went out of their way to make each Sectorial have a "unique flavor" to them. A paint job can only do so much in that case when you have wildly differing styles.

What's more, the supposed limitations of a Sectorial are quickly offset with vanilla.

And the benefits of vanilla are quickly offset by the benefits of a secorial. Or do you think in a vanilla Haqqislam list I can take 6 Muyibs, 4 Lasiqs, 3 Fidays (including Al Djabel), and link some of those for +1 burst, SSL 2 and +3 BS, or 5 Odalisques, 4 Druze, 5 Kaplans and use Hafza to glue links together?

I really wish you'd start playing the game before going on rants like this. This balance problem you keep going on about with vanilla does not exist. if it did, you wouldn't be the only person with a problem with it.

As for theme, some people just don't give a feth. Me? I pick the list I want to play when I show up. Sometimes it's a sectorial, sometimes it's vanilla, just depending on what I feel like playing at that time and what's in my miniature case.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
When it comes down to the vanilla lists, it simply feels too messy. A list quickly loses any focused theme or aesthetic given that they went out of their way to make each Sectorial have a "unique flavor" to them. A paint job can only do so much in that case when you have wildly differing styles.

What's more, the supposed limitations of a Sectorial are quickly offset with vanilla.

And the benefits of vanilla are quickly offset by the benefits of a sectorial. Or do you think in a vanilla Haqqislam list I can take 6 Muyibs, 4 Lasiqs, 3 Fidays (including Al Djabel), and link some of those for +1 burst, SSL 2 and +3 BS?

And there it is, the magical "Link teams are your advantage" argument.

Link teams are great and all but they're not necessarily an end all, be all. The simple fact that you could realistically put Link Teams into vanilla lists without breaking the game refutes that entire argument.

I really wish you'd start playing the bloody game before going on rants like this. This balance problem you keep going on about with vanilla does not exist. if it did, you wouldn't be the only person with a problem with it.

Who's to say I haven't been "playing the bloody game"? I don't play OFTEN but that isn't the same thing as not playing.

And really, if you actually paid attention to the official forums there were people who were talking about this being a problem. Most of the complaints were centered around Neoterra but that does not change anything really. The ready availability of Specialists for vanilla lists pretty much kills the supposed "advantages" of Link Teams and the like since most people play objectives, not "wipe the board" games.

As for theme, some people just don't give a feth. Me? I pick the list I want to play when I show up. Sometimes it's a sectorial, sometimes it's vanilla, just depending on what I feel like playing at that time.

Good for you. I shouldn't be penalized for wanting to have a themed list though. Either make the penalty across the entire faction or don't put penalties in, period.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
When it comes down to the vanilla lists, it simply feels too messy. A list quickly loses any focused theme or aesthetic given that they went out of their way to make each Sectorial have a "unique flavor" to them. A paint job can only do so much in that case when you have wildly differing styles.

What's more, the supposed limitations of a Sectorial are quickly offset with vanilla.

And the benefits of vanilla are quickly offset by the benefits of a sectorial. Or do you think in a vanilla Haqqislam list I can take 6 Muyibs, 4 Lasiqs, 3 Fidays (including Al Djabel), and link some of those for +1 burst, SSL 2 and +3 BS?

And there it is, the magical "Link teams are your advantage" argument.

Link teams are great and all but they're not necessarily an end all, be all. The simple fact that you could realistically put Link Teams into vanilla lists without breaking the game refutes that entire argument.

Except they haven't. It's the sectorial benefit. ignoring it to make your point isn't making a point. it's a very big advantage given to sectorial lists for the loss of unit variety they take to follow a theme.

Who's to say I haven't been "playing the bloody game"? I don't play OFTEN but that isn't the same thing as not playing.

And really, if you actually paid attention to the official forums there were people who were talking about this being a problem. Most of the complaints were centered around Neoterra but that does not change anything really. The ready availability of Specialists for vanilla lists

So then play more, because you opbviously aren't grasping the games balance.

Care to find some links for these discussions? Obviously it would be interesting reading.

Good for you. I shouldn't be penalized for wanting to have a themed list though. Either make the penalty across the entire faction or don't put penalties in, period.

And I'd prefer it if you'd stop insulting people who like the vanilla list playstyle. Comments such as

Vanilla is basically "throw whatever the hell you want in and call the job a good one", in my opinion, and I really dislike it as a playstyle.

Are flamebait, and you know it. It shows deliberate derision of the playstyle in order get a rise out of people who do like it. In a word, trolling.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
When it comes down to the vanilla lists, it simply feels too messy. A list quickly loses any focused theme or aesthetic given that they went out of their way to make each Sectorial have a "unique flavor" to them. A paint job can only do so much in that case when you have wildly differing styles.

What's more, the supposed limitations of a Sectorial are quickly offset with vanilla.

And the benefits of vanilla are quickly offset by the benefits of a sectorial. Or do you think in a vanilla Haqqislam list I can take 6 Muyibs, 4 Lasiqs, 3 Fidays (including Al Djabel), and link some of those for +1 burst, SSL 2 and +3 BS?

And there it is, the magical "Link teams are your advantage" argument.

Link teams are great and all but they're not necessarily an end all, be all. The simple fact that you could realistically put Link Teams into vanilla lists without breaking the game refutes that entire argument.

Except they haven't. It's the sectorial benefit. ignoring it to make your point isn't making a point. it's a very big advantage given to sectorial lists for the loss of unit variety they take to follow a theme.

Which really does not mean anything. To give an example Corvus Belli actively denies that the penalty that they gave Symbiote Armor for the Tohaa might have been too extreme in the case of some models.

Who's to say I haven't been "playing the bloody game"? I don't play OFTEN but that isn't the same thing as not playing.

And really, if you actually paid attention to the official forums there were people who were talking about this being a problem. Most of the complaints were centered around Neoterra but that does not change anything really. The ready availability of Specialists for vanilla lists

So then play more, because you obviously aren't grasping the games balance.

Again, not everyone plays straight kill games and when someone opts to stack a list with Specialists and ways to protect said Specialists specifically to take advantage of the weaknesses of a Sectorial it becomes very uninteresting and downright annoying to play.

Care to find some links for these discussions? Obviously it would be interesting reading.

You're looking for threads around the timeframe of the Bolts releasing and the NCA starter set.

Their search function is still very questionable. A lot of the discussion was lamenting the fact that Bolts "did not have the promised specialist options" and things of that nature.

Good for you. I shouldn't be penalized for wanting to have a themed list though. Either make the penalty across the entire faction or don't put penalties in, period.

And I'd prefer it if you'd stop insulting people who like the vanilla list playstyle. Comments such as

Vanilla is basically "throw whatever the hell you want in and call the job a good one", in my opinion, and I really dislike it as a playstyle.

Are flamebait, and you know it. It shows deliberate derision of the playstyle in order get a rise out of people who do like it. In a word, trolling.

It's really not. It's me expressing an opinion. You are just choosing to add a "tone" to the text that makes you think that I am doing it simply for trolling.

I can understand why you think it since you arguably are a big proponent of vanilla lists, but I cannot see the appeal of them. I find the playstyle boring, I find the aesthetics messy, and I dislike the fact that it limits unit AVA but not Specialists, Special Weapons or any of the options that would be limited for an equivalent Sectorial list.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's really not. It's me expressing an opinion. You are just choosing to add a "tone" to the text that makes you think that I am doing it simply for trolling.

I can understand why you think it since you arguably are a big proponent of vanilla lists, but I cannot see the appeal of them. I find the playstyle boring, I find the aesthetics messy, and I dislike the fact that it limits unit AVA but not Specialists, Special Weapons or any of the options that would be limited for an equivalent Sectorial list.

It's like me saying 'Sectorials are all about overpowering your line infantry through the use of links and calling it a day' which is why I don't like the playstyle.

It's wrong, and it's going to attract negative attention, in the same way as saying vanilla is 'throw whatever the hell you want in and call the job a good one'. I've got no problem with people expressing their opinion, but you in particular seem to attract a lot of negative attention when you do. Maybe you don't realize you come off like that? Every board I see you post on I see you get the same reaction for merely 'voicing your opinion', yet you seem bewildered when it happens every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, just to make a point about vanilla lists being an incoherent mess, here's a list I used recently.

Hassassin Barid Lt
Hassassin muyib Spitfire
Hassassin Muyib HRL
Al Hawwa Sniper
Sekban AP rifle
Jannisary AP rifle
Ghulam Doctor
Nasmat
Nasmat
Kum Shock CCW
Kum Shock CCW

Looks like a hodgepodge? Okay, let's make a theme!

Tarik gained intel that a high value target was going to be in the area, and relayed the intel to Sultinate high command. They tasked him with eliminating the target. His first request was to be allocated a pair of Kum riders from area command, as his Khawarij brothers were not available and he needed people who could keep pace with him and provide support. They approved it, on the condition that a Ghulam doctor could follow. They were tired of having to replace his body, as it was expensive and not foolproof, considering all the bioengineering in him. Nasmats should be able to keep pace with him, so they gave the doctor two of them.

The fleet master also has intel that in the area might be some valuable intel, so they requested that a Hawwa agent follow. Command requested some extra muscle, so fleet command also gave them a Sekban who was available, and a Jannisary who was returning from a nearby action.

The Hassassins, being given word that another target in the area earmarked by the Old Man in the Mountain for an early retirement, politely invited themselves along, with some heavy firepower, a pair of Muyibs with a Heavy Rocket Launcher and a Spitfire. They also demanded that a Hassassin Barid take overall command of the detail, knowing Tariks brashness in combat and tendency to lead from the front and not consider the overall engagement.

Now that the combat detail was sorted, they departed area command on the hunt for their objectives.

A theme doesn't have to be 'these guys are a typical combat group'. A theme can be anything, and it's quite easy to make a theme for a disparate group of individuals.

Strange, they suggest adding a TAG, but there doesn't seem to be much anti-TAG weaponry in the box. That doesn't seem like the best way to do things.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Red Harvest wrote:
... And this is a discussion for a different thread. Feel free to start one. Or you can read what others have had to say on the subject. Here on the soon to be closed official forums
http://infinitythegame.com/forum/index.php?/topic/12389-sexual-objectification-in-infinity/

Edit: to add that I hope any discussion here will at least be civil, given that this forum is moderated.

Yes, those are all good suggestions.

Let's stay on topic here.

Thanks!

We'll say this again.

Man in these sorts of situations it just seems the quote function is abused a bit. FWIW I don't really see any problem with what kanluwen said. When people say they don't like ... its kinda inherent that its an opinion, highlighting it as such seemed to be more inflammatory to me than anything. I think you two have just crossed paths too much.

I agree the suggestions of what to add to the packs is a bit odd. I can't see a tag complementing what's in them well, let alone an iguana matching up to a jotum. For either side I'd say a hacker would be worthwhile in expanding. The protection for your HI is nice and then it opens up remotes so you've got a whole bunch of other things to go with. Seeing as it sounds like you've gone with corrigedor, that's sorted with a wildcat hacker so maybe a lunokhod would be a good investment next.I like tsyklons, but know we others aren't so keen on them but they can always be proxied with a lunokhod first as they almost look the same.

In terms of support units corrigedor have a good alternative to the classics in the tomcats. They are very versatile dudes. I haven't used regular docs/engs in JCC in a long time (but that also comes down to me disliking support dudes in general). Other units are the Moran, its the only infiltrator JCC has but its quite unique with the koalas. If you like the lunokhod, you should like him, vis versa.

Added stuff;
I'm not a fan of snipers in JCC, all units that can take them fare better with their other options (normally hmgs). They're alright on other dudes like spektrs... And that's about it. One unit really worthwhe getting for JCC is McMurrough. He works really well, but as a merc can only be used in that sectorial for ITS stuff. Everyone seems to swear by that anyway as hardly anyone seems to take non-ITS lists.

I'm not gonna make much of a move on pano

Both sets are quite low on SWC right? (a sniper and maybe proxy a hacker each?)

The suggested TAG adds some good firepower, so I can see some sense in that, at least from that angle. Not sure on the points costs though with the others.

I'm thinking ice storm, then add jotum and geckos. But just because they look badass.

 jedi76 wrote:
I'm thinking ice storm, then add jotum and geckos. But just because they look badass.

You're not wrong!

But be sure to have some protection for your T.A.G.s in the form of hackers and/or engineers!

 jedi76 wrote:
I'm thinking ice storm, then add jotum and geckos. But just because they look badass.

I would suggest the Iguana or the Szalamandra over Geckos.

It does irk me to have to suggest against Geckos as I love those buggers, but the Geckos are not heavy hitters in the way that people are used to with TAGs. They are for all intents and purposes a biggerized Heavy Infantry model toting Medium Infantry/Heavy Infantry weaponry. Pairing Geckos against a Jotum is not really a balanced way to do it if you want to introduce TAGs into the mix.
The Iguana or Szalamandra are more in line with a Jotum in terms of firepower and the role that you would be giving a TAG.

Just as a sidenote, with the changes we know so far for N3, the Geckos should become better due to Rifle range upgrade, while it seems the HMG-TAGs might be slightly worse at close range (due to HMG debuff)
That said, don't underestimate a BS15 HMG TAG at close range, it can still ruin your day, active and in ARO

We'll the iguana is pretty cool too I suppose. That prominent sensor 'package' between its legs makes me abit uncomfortable for some reason I think ill probly go with the geckos and just find a hacker or dude with a missile launcher for jotums.

Something to remember with TAGs is you can and will take them down with small arms fire. They have high ARM, but only 3 structure points, some even only 2, like Geckos and the Anaconda.

Sure, it's nice to have a Panzerfaust or Missile Launcher to sneak around the side and give one an almighy wollop with an AT weapon. But throw enough shots at them, and they will fail saves. Every time I've downed my brothers O-Yoroi, it's been without an AT weapon.