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 Paradigm wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Detracting from "my enjoyment of the game" is something different to what I'm discussing though.

If someone is going to whine and moan that I don't have my huge book with me so that I can run my Vulture Gunship or Scanners(you know, those little pylons?) for my IG?

So it's just a personal thing. Ok, I don't agree with that (just because some people stop you from having fun with some stuff, I don't see that as a reason to stop them from the same. If you were more willing to grant them concessions, they might be easier letting you use FW), but it's your choice.

And for the record, I think the people denying you FW are being unreasonable.

I should also say that it is going to be entirely dependent upon a bit of context and the situation in question.

If you come at me with a netlist and say "This plastic AOBR Warboss is Grukk, here are his rules" but don't have the Stormclaw booklet?

I'm going to laugh at you and say "NOPE. He's a regular Warboss per Sanctus Reach."

Seems dumb ^


Could understand if he had a D strength battlecannon for an arm or something... But he's just one of the less underwhelming Ork Special Characters for his points.


Not game-breaking at all.

 MagicMan wrote:
Seems dumb ^


Could understand if he had a D strength battlecannon for an arm or something... But he's just one of the less underwhelming Ork Special Characters for his points.


Not game-breaking at all.

TFG come in all forms really.

Just picked up a copy of Stormclaw because I've been a fan of Space Wolves fiction and wanted to start a 40k army for while. Was thinking of selling the orks. How should I include the rules for Grukk? Obviously I want to keep the rules for Dragongaze, so I can't give the whole book away. What's the normal procedure?

Thanks

PS I'd imagine the rules for the Killa Kanz and the rest are already in the ork codex?

The rules for the Killa Kanz and the rest are not in the Ork Codex.

What you got in there are rules for what effectively are new units, additions to the Ork Codex at large. They can be fielded as "just plain Kanz" or Nobz or what have you, but they legitimately are new units otherwise.

there are people with the rules and books from stormclaw but none of the models.

many of the preorders GW sold were bought by "people" that like money more than models, and broke the contents down into lots and put them up for sale.

Some people did purchase the rulebook without the grukk model fyi.

A beginner's perspective, for whatever it is worth.
I'm not a pirate. I am 185 dollars into this game just for books, and it really annoys me to hear that $50 only bought me some portion of the rules for orks, especially when it says, "Codex: Orks contains everything you need to collect your very own greenskin horde..."
Unfortunately, it isn't "Everything you need"
I Just bought the stormclaw only the Orks from ebay, assuming that I already had the rules for them.
It seems a bit ridiculous that anyone (and games workshop) would have a problem with someone looking up the stats online.
Would you accept a photocopied page? suppose the person split the box with a friend, and just kept a photocopy of the relevant pages. What about copied on a note card in pen? Cell phone picture of the info? How exactly are you suppose to split that pack between 2 people, keeping each with a copy of the rules?
What if there is a tear on the page in question, and that number looks like a 8 but it could have been a 3....
Yes, I grant you, in ancient times the answer to that would have been to go and buy another one. Nowadays, we look this stuff up on forums, like this lovely one right here.
Sorry for all that, I'm just a little bothered getting into this game, only to realize every GW product seems to require another purchase to use properly.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The rules for the Killa Kanz and the rest are not in the Ork Codex.

What you got in there are rules for what effectively are new units, additions to the Ork Codex at large. They can be fielded as "just plain Kanz" or Nobz or what have you, but they legitimately are new units otherwise.

Its a mixed statement. The Kanz are...Kanz. There is nothing special about the models. It's the RULES that make the every day Kan 'special'. So, yes, the KANZ are in the Ork Codex. But the special rules/formations that grant EXTRA to the ordinary Kan are NOT in the codex. The Kanz you get in the Stormclaw box are not 'new units'. The data sheets are the 'new unit' you speak of.

USPartySquadron wrote:
A beginner's perspective, for whatever it is worth.
I'm not a pirate. I am 185 dollars into this game just for books, and it really annoys me to hear that $50 only bought me some portion of the rules for orks, especially when it says, "Codex: Orks contains everything you need to collect your very own greenskin horde..."
Unfortunately, it isn't "Everything you need"
I Just bought the stormclaw only the Orks from ebay, assuming that I already had the rules for them.
It seems a bit ridiculous that anyone (and games workshop) would have a problem with someone looking up the stats online.
Would you accept a photocopied page? suppose the person split the box with a friend, and just kept a photocopy of the relevant pages. What about copied on a note card in pen? Cell phone picture of the info? How exactly are you suppose to split that pack between 2 people, keeping each with a copy of the rules?
What if there is a tear on the page in question, and that number looks like a 8 but it could have been a 3....
Yes, I grant you, in ancient times the answer to that would have been to go and buy another one. Nowadays, we look this stuff up on forums, like this lovely one right here.
Sorry for all that, I'm just a little bothered getting into this game, only to realize every GW product seems to require another purchase to use properly.

The thing is, the Codex does give you everything you need to play Orks. The 'add ons' are not mandatory in any way, shape or form. It's up to you if the 'add ons' are worth it to you or not. Orks are not the only faction to get these. It's a tactic to allow them to make more models/money over the lifespan of a Codex. I'm OK with them making new stuff, so my Codex doesn't feel like it's getting stale. I wouldn't want them to pump out add ons rapidly instead of just being in the codex from the get go. If GW wanted to make a new unit/character every year until a new codex came out, I'd be fine with that. It doesn't mean I'd buy it if I felt it wasn't worth getting.

Just play with the basic units. The Stormclaw box just gives you NEW WAYS to use the SAME units in the Codex. It's similar to the Waaagh supplement. You can use formations in it to make the original units a little better, with certain restrictions and obligations to follow. Is the Waaaagh supplement mandatory to play Orks? No. Just the basic codex is. Is the supplement hoarding units from the main Codex? No. Again, it just allows you to use them in a slightly different way.

I wouldn't care if someone had a photocopied data sheet to play characters from boxed sets that are difficult to use. Why? Because it's a fething game. Play it to have fun, and stop acting like douchebags. If it were a tournament (Which I don't play), I still wouldn't care. "Sorry brah, you didn't buy that one time, limited edition thing you can never get ever again! So you can't use that really cool, unique model EVER.". /rolls eyes

Yeah, the limited edition part really kills any drive I might have to expect my opponent to have an official copy of the rules for Grukk.

If you want to play Orks, I expect you to have an Ork 'dex. You might want to play Grukk, but you can't buy one! It's sold out! (I know there's resellers, but those copies are going to dry up at some point, too). I would normally be a little reluctant to let people just play using rules they downloaded off the net, or copied from somebody, but there's a legitimate obstacle here. You might be able to find an official copy of Grukk right now, but in six months? A year?

There's nothing preventing you from running him as a stock warboss (and, while his rules are good, so are some of the other Gifts of Gork and Mork that you can't take with Grukk). However, I think he's easily enough encapsulated that letting someone run him without the 'official copy' isn't too big of a deal. Of course, if GW made these extra rules available for a reasonable price as an electronic download, it would be kind of nice, too, but then, I'm kind of irritated with the whole "limited edition" nonsense in the first place.

 Kanluwen wrote:
...

That's an interesting approach.

I've bought some plastic clay and have made me some mek accessories so that a blackreach boy that i've bought from e-bay now has a huge wrench and a welding mask and counts as a mekboy. And now i'm making lobbas - gw pricing is hilariously over the top and big gunz are really easy to scratch-build. You just need grot models to fire them afterwards. Will move to a battlewagon next but that's gona be really hard. And meganobz made out of regular nobz - the hardest ones cause i find humanoid stuff to be the most difficult to create.

So, imagine, here you are loaded with all your forgeworld gw-approved © models and 10 books including a brb, faq, codex, supplement 1, supplement 2, codex for your allies, white dwarf for models that are in white dwarf only, etc. And here i come to play with you. Got all the rules digitally on my phone, have a big part of my army scratch-built and most other stuff bought on e-bay or from local guyz. Will you play this game?

Da Butcha wrote:
Yeah, the limited edition part really kills any drive I might have to expect my opponent to have an official copy of the rules for Grukk.

If you want to play Orks, I expect you to have an Ork 'dex. You might want to play Grukk, but you can't buy one! It's sold out! (I know there's resellers, but those copies are going to dry up at some point, too). I would normally be a little reluctant to let people just play using rules they downloaded off the net, or copied from somebody, but there's a legitimate obstacle here. You might be able to find an official copy of Grukk right now, but in six months? A year?

There's nothing preventing you from running him as a stock warboss (and, while his rules are good, so are some of the other Gifts of Gork and Mork that you can't take with Grukk). However, I think he's easily enough encapsulated that letting someone run him without the 'official copy' isn't too big of a deal. Of course, if GW made these extra rules available for a reasonable price as an electronic download, it would be kind of nice, too, but then, I'm kind of irritated with the whole "limited edition" nonsense in the first place.

The stormclaw book is available as ebook in unlimited quantities. So getting Grukk's rules legally should not be a problem, even though the price isn't reasonable - at least not for me. I'm not paying 25€ for the rules of single model - the rest of the book is worthless to me anyways.

Sorry guys, but I don't have the rules in english here... What is shred effect ?

 RedizDead wrote:
Sorry guys, but I don't have the rules in english here... What is shred effect ?

Re-roll wounds.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 RedizDead wrote:
Sorry guys, but I don't have the rules in english here... What is shred effect ?

Re-roll wounds.

Ok so like Snikrot, correct?

Yep, same rule.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Considering the only way to have the rules that you can use for Grukk(right now at least) is to have bought Stormclaw, which would mean you should have the model...no I would not let them use the rules without the model.

Why? It's a Warboss with a Combi-Rokkitt and a fancy Power Claw. Pretty easy conversion. Do you only allow people to use the Official Citadel Miniature for all special characters, never any model someone has decided to make because they prefer their Marneus Calgar/Lucius The Eternal/Aun'Va/Eldrad/Swarmlord to the official one?

If you wanted to field Grukk Face-Rippa as a Warboss with a Kombi-Rokkitt, Power Klaw, and Attack Squig, the way that Sanctus Reach suggests if you do not have the Stormclaw rules?
Fine with that.

The real crux of the issue here H.B.M.C. is that someone is wanting to field the rules without the model--which the only way to do so at the moment is to pirate the rules/copy-paste them off a forum or some other avenue which involves you getting a pretty nice HQ choice without you paying for the rules or buy them off of someone who bought Stormclaw(which if you're doing this, why aren't you just buying Grukk from them as well?)...which is slightly unlikely as the Stormclaw boxed set and the rules contained within are all additions to your Space Wolf or Ork Codex. They might get posted under the FAQs at some point so that people can have the rules(like was done with the Interrogator Chaplain for Dark Angels from the "special edition" Dark Vengeance set), but at the moment it was something you have to pay to get the rules for.

If someone wanted to field the model without the rules? Fine with that. But when you start wanting to use the special rules that came with the set where the model came from, I have a slight issue.

In regards to your other question: No. As long as it's a reasonable conversion(i.e. you can tell pretty quickly what is what just by looking at it), I'm fine and dandy with it. I have a Creed and Kell conversion I'm working on right now since there is no reasonably easy way for me to give the models respirators.
This is kind of a strange case though. I wouldn't mind letting someone field a conversion of a FW model if they had the rules but not the model, etc. It's just in this case the rules and the model are from the same set. There is not really a logical series of events that I can see ending with someone having one but not the other.

I test EVERYTHING before I buy model or book. I've got like 5k in the game

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