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Given the respect and genetic lineiage of sucessor chapters to the original legions, if one of the vaunted primarchs did return, yes odds are low but let's forget that for a bit.

Would the sway they have over the marines, espechilyy ones which did not stray far from the template of the original legion and its values/tradition's form a level of unity which could be called a semi legion as even a chapter master is second to the gene father and true son of the emperor.

what would the inquisition start thinking or the high lords that such a military power block has potential to form given there rank and near legendary reputations.

Given some have so many sucsessors and linked chapters, one man abet a demi god may yet weild power long feared in the minds of terra if they so chose to.

Personally, I think 1,000 man chapters have always been ridiculous. It's not nearly enough marines to conduct thorough combat operations and the appearance of a primarch shouldn't have to be needed to expand chapter strength.

I think legions should come back into the picture, at least 10,000 marines each. GW's numbers are idiotic and plain stupid.

Just my opinion though. To answer your question, it would depend. Roboute Guiliman would fight tooth and nail to keep things the way they are because this is how he left it. Leman Russ on the other hand would push for larger chapters.

I agree, Guilliman would try as hard as he could to try and keep it the way it is but if someone like Dorn came back i reckon he would immediately recreate an Imperial Fists legion, also i'm pretty sure he started that annual tournament thing to show all the successor chapters they were still his Gene-sons.

Pimarch return in the present Imperium conditions?

Civil war. Again.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Personally, I think 1,000 man chapters have always been ridiculous. It's not nearly enough marines to conduct thorough combat operations and the appearance of a primarch shouldn't have to be needed to expand chapter strength.

I think legions should come back into the picture, at least 10,000 marines each. GW's numbers are idiotic and plain stupid.

Just my opinion though. To answer your question, it would depend. Roboute Guiliman would fight tooth and nail to keep things the way they are because this is how he left it. Leman Russ on the other hand would push for larger chapters.

The High Lords of Terra probably don't trust Space Marines enough to allow them to return to Legion status. It wasn't just Guilliman alone who approved the Second Founding - The High Lords were also solidly behind it as well as other Primarchs. In fact, Rogal Dorn's refusal to split his Legion nearly started a second civil war. Add to that growing distrust how Space Marines go renegade almost routinely. A Space Marine Chapter going renegade is a crisis to be sure, but a Legion strength Chapter going renegade would be catastrophic.

Second point - the mass production of Space Marines during the heresy led to many of the gene seed flaws we now know of today. A return to Legions would exacerbate the current flaws and only add more.

On another point, most Chaos Legions don't even operate on a Legion level anymore. World Eater, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, etc.

From a setting standpoint, return of the Legions would contradict the "GRIMDARK" setting that exists currently. With the current level of Space Marines available there's always the threat of being overwhelmed or destroyed by outside/covert forces, because the Marines cannot be everywhere at once, and there are not enough Marines available to participate in drawn out campaigns of attrition needed to thoroughly rout an enemy force. If the threat of annihilation were not ever present as it is now, there would be no reason why the Imperium would have any trouble whatsoever eliminating the threats they face now.

Abaddon the armless wrote:
I agree, Guilliman would try as hard as he could to try and keep it the way it is but if someone like Dorn came back i reckon he would immediately recreate an Imperial Fists legion, also i'm pretty sure he started that annual tournament thing to show all the successor chapters they were still his Gene-sons.

Very true. After all, Rogal Dorn almost started a second civil war with Roboute Guilliman to keep legions in operation. As you said, the Imperial Fists and all their successor chapters gathered for what I believe is the Feast of Blades, where the Imperial fists and their relative chapters gather and send a single champion to participate in non-lethal honor duals. It is held every one hundred years and it strengthens their bonds of brotherhood. I'm sure if Dorn came back, they would all be happy to gather and become one with their gene-father again.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Abaddon the armless wrote:
I agree, Guilliman would try as hard as he could to try and keep it the way it is but if someone like Dorn came back i reckon he would immediately recreate an Imperial Fists legion, also i'm pretty sure he started that annual tournament thing to show all the successor chapters they were still his Gene-sons.

Very true. After all, Rogal Dorn almost started a second civil war with Roboute Guilliman to keep legions in operation. As you said, the Imperial Fists and all their successor chapters gathered what I believe is the Feast of Blades, where the Imperial fists and their relative chapters gather and send a single champion to participate in non-lethal honor duals. It is held every one hundred years and it strengthens their bonds of brotherhood. I'm sure if Dorn came back, they would all be happy to gather and become one with their gene-father again.

That as the kind of thing I ment, natural loyalty, and alone summon the black templers, there nearly a legion on own, if they come in full strength. Dorn being there father could call there oath furfilled potentially.

 AWesker1976 wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Personally, I think 1,000 man chapters have always been ridiculous. It's not nearly enough marines to conduct thorough combat operations and the appearance of a primarch shouldn't have to be needed to expand chapter strength.

I think legions should come back into the picture, at least 10,000 marines each. GW's numbers are idiotic and plain stupid.

Just my opinion though. To answer your question, it would depend. Roboute Guiliman would fight tooth and nail to keep things the way they are because this is how he left it. Leman Russ on the other hand would push for larger chapters.

The High Lords of Terra probably don't trust Space Marines enough to allow them to return to Legion status. It wasn't just Guilliman alone who approved the Second Founding - The High Lords were also solidly behind it as well as other Primarchs. In fact, Rogal Dorn's refusal to split his Legion nearly started a second civil war. Add to that growing distrust how Space Marines go renegade almost routinely. A Space Marine Chapter going renegade is a crisis to be sure, but a Legion strength Chapter going renegade would be catastrophic.

Second point - the mass production of Space Marines during the heresy led to many of the gene seed flaws we now know of today. A return to Legions would exacerbate the current flaws and only add more.

On another point, most Chaos Legions don't even operate on a Legion level anymore. World Eater, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, etc.

From a setting standpoint, return of the Legions would contradict the "GRIMDARK" setting that exists currently. With the current level of Space Marines available there's always the threat of being overwhelmed or destroyed by outside/covert forces, because the Marines cannot be everywhere at once, and there are not enough Marines available to participate in drawn out campaigns of attrition needed to thoroughly rout an enemy force. If the threat of annihilation were not ever present as it is now, there would be no reason why the Imperium would have any trouble whatsoever eliminating the threats they face now.

I,m not saying they should be as ginormous as they once were, just 10,000 each, which if you think about it still isn't entirely stupid. If a legion of 10,000 went to Chaos, there are more than enough loyalists to combat the threat. There are ways to make SM numbers more believable while at the same time retaining a grimdark setting, which I do love.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jhe90 wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Abaddon the armless wrote:
I agree, Guilliman would try as hard as he could to try and keep it the way it is but if someone like Dorn came back i reckon he would immediately recreate an Imperial Fists legion, also i'm pretty sure he started that annual tournament thing to show all the successor chapters they were still his Gene-sons.

Very true. After all, Rogal Dorn almost started a second civil war with Roboute Guilliman to keep legions in operation. As you said, the Imperial Fists and all their successor chapters gathered what I believe is the Feast of Blades, where the Imperial fists and their relative chapters gather and send a single champion to participate in non-lethal honor duals. It is held every one hundred years and it strengthens their bonds of brotherhood. I'm sure if Dorn came back, they would all be happy to gather and become one with their gene-father again.

That as the kind of thing I ment, natural loyalty, and alone summon the black templers, there nearly a legion on own, if they come in full strength. Dorn being there father could call there oath furfilled potentially.

Exactly. Natural loyalty to a father they have faithfully been fighting for, for 10,000 years. They would not hesitate.

jhe90 wrote:
Given the respect and genetic lineiage of sucessor chapters to the original legions, if one of the vaunted primarchs did return, yes odds are low but let's forget that for a bit.

Would the sway they have over the marines, espechilyy ones which did not stray far from the template of the original legion and its values/tradition's form a level of unity which could be called a semi legion as even a chapter master is second to the gene father and true son of the emperor.

No. The Primarchs already accepted the need for Chapters and some were around for quite some time after the second founding.

when the Astral claws went renegade they took 3 other Chapters, the Badab PDF, and the Maelstrom Battlefleet with them.

Having enough Loyalists to deal with a renegade legion of 10K marines assumes there are no other alien incursions or Chaos conflicts anywhere else in the Imperium. The Tau still exist today because the Damocles Crusade was abandoned due to a 'Nid incursion.

You also assume that renegade legions would not receive support from other Chaos renegades or legions. (see Siege of Vraks)

 AWesker1976 wrote:
when the Astral claws went renegade they took 3 other Chapters, the Badab PDF, and the Maelstrom Battlefleet with them.

Having enough Loyalists to deal with a renegade legion of 10K marines assumes there are no other alien incursions or Chaos conflicts anywhere else in the Imperium. The Tau still exist today because the Damocles Crusade was abandoned due to a 'Nid incursion.

You also assume that renegade legions would not receive support from other Chaos renegades or legions. (see Siege of Vraks)

Nothing would have changed. If Huron and his renegade chapters had 10,000 each and the attacking loyalists also had 10,000 men, nothing would have changed. Just a larger amount of carnage and bloodshed

Animus wrote:
No. The Primarchs already accepted the need for Chapters and some were around for quite some time after the second founding.

Exactly this.

The Codex Astartes was laid down precisely to prevent any person - Primarch or otherwise - from wielding so much power. All the chapters that are faithful to the Codex Astartes - the vast majority - are aware of this. They would not go along with the reforging of a Legion unless that Primarch had some very, very compelling reasons. It's more likely that any attempt at it would lead to a civil war.

Animus wrote:

jhe90 wrote:
Given the respect and genetic lineiage of sucessor chapters to the original legions, if one of the vaunted primarchs did return, yes odds are low but let's forget that for a bit.

Would the sway they have over the marines, espechilyy ones which did not stray far from the template of the original legion and its values/tradition's form a level of unity which could be called a semi legion as even a chapter master is second to the gene father and true son of the emperor.

No. The Primarchs already accepted the need for Chapters and some were around for quite some time after the second founding.

Some only did to stop a second civil war though, put of need not want. And to return to lead 1000 when once you had at most 100,000 to 250,000 at your chomand.
1000 marines is hardly befitting of a primarch.

I mean, 80,000 men back during the Great Crusade was to many, and the 1,000 men chapters today are to small. I believe 10,000 is just right

If the lion returned to the dark angels. The Dark Angels would become a legion once again.

But the other first founding chapters/legions, might increase their numbers. Because only a thousand space marines in a galaxy is far too little.

Asherian Command. Exactly what I'm trying to say.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I mean, 80,000 men back during the Great Crusade was to many, and the 1,000 men chapters today are to small. I believe 10,000 is just right

I'd agree with that. Hence why Black Templars are favorite of mine. along with the Raven Guard, because god knows how many they might actually have. (Like the Minotaurs)

Currently the Ultramarines also have far more than a thousand, as their tyranic war veteran company is still pretty active. And that is well over a hundred space marines and exist outside of the chapter.

Also we don't know if that thousand is counting for in training, just recruited, or space marines assigned to guard the borders on special missions, also we don't know if they count the death watch marines.

Currently as it stands, there isn't just a thousand marines in a chapter. Because there are also pilots of vechiles, and those space marines trained in space combat, and act as the commanders of the vessel.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I mean, 80,000 men back during the Great Crusade was to many, and the 1,000 men chapters today are to small. I believe 10,000 is just right

You double posted.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I mean, 80,000 men back during the Great Crusade was to many, and the 1,000 men chapters today are to small. I believe 10,000 is just right

I'd agree with that. Hence why Black Templars are favorite of mine. along with the Raven Guard, because god knows how many they might actually have. (Like the Minotaurs)

Currently the Ultramarines also have far more than a thousand, as their tyranic war veteran company is still pretty active. And that is well over a hundred space marines and exist outside of the chapter.

Also we don't know if that thousand is counting for in training, just recruited, or space marines assigned to guard the borders on special missions, also we don't know if they count the death watch marines.

Currently as it stands, there isn't just a thousand marines in a chapter. Because there are also pilots of vechiles, and those space marines trained in space combat, and act as the commanders of the vessel.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I mean, 80,000 men back during the Great Crusade was to many, and the 1,000 men chapters today are to small. I believe 10,000 is just right

You double posted.

Mine to, they are loyal, bit crazy and love getting a chainsword into the enemies guts too much but they have a good rdebelious we do our own thing streak but loyal. I also kind of have a growing collection of them :-)

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I mean, 80,000 men back during the Great Crusade was to many, and the 1,000 men chapters today are to small. I believe 10,000 is just right

I'd agree with that. Hence why Black Templars are favorite of mine. along with the Raven Guard, because god knows how many they might actually have. (Like the Minotaurs)

Currently the Ultramarines also have far more than a thousand, as their tyranic war veteran company is still pretty active. And that is well over a hundred space marines and exist outside of the chapter.

Also we don't know if that thousand is counting for in training, just recruited, or space marines assigned to guard the borders on special missions, also we don't know if they count the death watch marines.

Currently as it stands, there isn't just a thousand marines in a chapter. Because there are also pilots of vechiles, and those space marines trained in space combat, and act as the commanders of the vessel.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I mean, 80,000 men back during the Great Crusade was to many, and the 1,000 men chapters today are to small. I believe 10,000 is just right

You double posted.

Yup, my phone was acting up.

Anyway, the 1,000 man estimate is still pretty baseless. I mean, the 1,000 men only count the 100 marines assigned to each company. There should be 50 companies of 200 marines equaling 10,000 combat effective men. That sounds much more believable in a universe as deadly as this.

Let's say a Primarch did return, what would the Imperium's reaction be to it?

Inquisition, High Lords, Mechanicum, etc

Say for example Rogal Dorn reappeared and unitled the Fists again, I wonder how Perturabo would react to his old nemesis returning to the field.

 AWesker1976 wrote:
Let's say a Primarch did return, what would the Imperium's reaction be to it?

Inquisition, High Lords, Mechanicum, etc

Say for example Rogal Dorn reappeared and unitled the Fists again, I wonder how Perturabo would react to his old nemesis returning to the field.

He wouldn't care. He's been stuck on his world for years.

He wouldn't care. Rogal Dorn would probably lead all the space marines, and try to be the superior administrator of the Imperial fists and try to show many things about the chapter and try and increase its number and stop it from being the go to beat em up for a chaos space marine force.

Corax's return would mean that the raven guard are redeemed and he will gather his troops and prepare them

With vulkan's return, the Salamanders would become near unbeatable. As this also means Vulkan He'stan has gotten all the artifacts.

With Jaghati Khan's return the White Scars would be even more unified.

 Judge Dredd wrote:
Pimarch return in the present Imperium conditions?

Civil war. Again.

agreed

primarchs are gone for a reason - like thunder warriors. Their use came to end and are no longer needed. The marines operate now on a lower power level and balance is maintained bringing one back now would prove to be more of a threat than a good thing.

jhe90 wrote:
Some only did to stop a second civil war though, put of need not want.

Maybe Russ, with his token Wolf Brothers, but Vulkan accepted the Codex gracefully when he chatted with Guilliman and it was made clear the mauled Salamanders would not be split.
Dorn had a vision of the Emperor and was cool with the Codex after that and putting his Legion through the Iron Cage.

jhe90 wrote:
And to return to lead 1000 when once you had at most 100,000 to 250,000 at your chomand.
1000 marines is hardly befitting of a primarch.

So because of ego they would risk starting a civil war that they did not want to start 10k years ago when they had a stronger position?

Space Marines dealt with their Legion baggage millenia ago.

I always thought that the space wolves never spilt and were just under strength and never came back to full.

Black Templars have a huge amount of space marines and break them up across different crusades to hide their massive numbers.

Dark Angels and there successors in the fluff are almost always in contact and with the inner circle controlling all of them combined they might be close to chapter strength - and if the lion would stop being emo on the rock he might be able to some good, or cause a civil war.

 Whereswaldo wrote:
I always thought that the space wolves never spilt and were just under strength and never came back to full.

Black Templars have a huge amount of space marines and break them up across different crusades to hide their massive numbers.

Dark Angels and there successors in the fluff are almost always in contact and with the inner circle controlling all of them combined they might be close to chapter strength - and if the lion would stop being emo on the rock he might be able to some good, or cause a civil war.

The Lion is in a coma. The injuries he sustained were quite immense. So he was put to sleep until they have real need of him.

 kerikhaos wrote:

 Judge Dredd wrote:
Pimarch return in the present Imperium conditions?

Civil war. Again.

agreed

primarchs are gone for a reason - like thunder warriors. Their use came to end and are no longer needed. The marines operate now on a lower power level and balance is maintained bringing one back now would prove to be more of a threat than a good thing.

What??? Primarchs not needed??? More of a threat than a good thing???

That is outrageous. 1,000 strong chapters is just funny. I literally just laugh. 1,000 SM's can't do anything effectively. The only reason it seems they are good enough is because Dan Abnett writes about how god-like a SM is. It's just not real.

I absolutely love SM's and they are my main army but I hate how unreal their storyline has become. It's just embarrassing.

Realistically they wouldn't need to actually reform their legions. If Sanguinius returned you can bet that every BA successor chapter would follow his every order, regardless of whether or not they were merged back into a legion. The same is true for most, if not all of the other primarchs and their sons.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I mean, 80,000 men back during the Great Crusade was to many, and the 1,000 men chapters today are to small. I believe 10,000 is just right

The largest legions numbered in the hundreds of thousands, not tens.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I mean, 80,000 men back during the Great Crusade was to many, and the 1,000 men chapters today are to small. I believe 10,000 is just right

The largest legions numbered in the hundreds of thousands, not tens.

Yeah I know, the average legion size was 80,000. The largest was the Ultramarines at 240,000 and the smallest was the Thousand Sons (I believe?) At 10,000.

Maybe I'm wrong, but either way it is a crap ton of astartes.

Nah, that's still a negligible number of Astartes if you're going to look at how many Marines you would actually need to pursue a conventional ground war.