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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 16:41:17
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Sneaky Sniper Drone
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So a warlord trait lets you infiltrate your warlord and 3 other non vehicle units. Buildings are only treated as vehicles when being shot at. Buildings are not vehicles. So can I put my vengeance weapons battery behind enemy lines for maximum trolling?
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Valhallan Guard vs Tau. v |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 17:02:26
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Ventiscogreen wrote:So a warlord trait lets you infiltrate your warlord and 3 other non vehicle units. Buildings are only treated as vehicles when being shot at. Buildings are not vehicles. So can I put my vengeance weapons battery behind enemy lines for maximum trolling?
you might want to read up on the fortification rules.
They are treated as vehicle for more than just being shot at...
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 17:53:25
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Ventiscogreen wrote:Buildings are only treated as vehicles when being shot at. Buildings are not vehicles. I think the bigger question is, "Are they technically even units?" Since they don't count as being units on the field when the rest of your people are wiped out. I always viewed them as "Terrain with benefits" which would mean they can't infiltrate. Also, dunno how your enemy lines usually look, but good luck trying to find a spot in their deployment zone where there are no units for 18" (cuz there's no way you're going to find a 12" radius circle with no LOS).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/22 17:57:42
"Listen up! Dis here's da Plan. Ya win. If ya didn't win, it's 'cuz ya didn't follow da Plan." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 18:46:07
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Confessor Of Sins
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In addition to what DeathReaper posted, don't forget buildings can get captured.
So feel free to donate it to your enemy in that way
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 20:49:10
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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To add an extra level of difficulty; Buildings are not Claimed prior to Deployment.
This is an important distinction as only Claimed Buildings have access to the Rules which given such buildings. As it is a Rule stating that a Claimed building is a Unit in the possessors Army, and Unclaimed Buildings are nothing more then terrain, without access to this Rule the Building stops being a Unit and that causes all sorts of problems with a wide range of rules that effect Models or Units. Therefore the Building has to be deployed before it can be targeted, even if it was a legal choice to begin with, making it too late to benefit from being the target of such a Rule.
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8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 20:58:39
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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JinxDragon wrote:To add an extra level of difficulty; Buildings are not Claimed prior to Deployment.
Where did you find this? Buildings are claimed if they are purchased as part of your army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 21:01:00
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Fragile wrote:JinxDragon wrote:To add an extra level of difficulty; Buildings are not Claimed prior to Deployment.
Where did you find this? Buildings are claimed if they are purchased as part of your army.
It's irrelevant really, buildings are treated like vehicles when determining if a special rule affects them. infiltrate says 3 non vehicles. ergo you can't infiltrate them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 21:02:26
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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sirlynchmob wrote:Fragile wrote:JinxDragon wrote:To add an extra level of difficulty; Buildings are not Claimed prior to Deployment.
Where did you find this? Buildings are claimed if they are purchased as part of your army.
It's irrelevant really, buildings are treated like vehicles when determining if a special rule affects them. infiltrate says 3 non vehicles. ergo you can't infiltrate them.
Irrelevant or not, I still wish to know where that came from as I have not found that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 21:13:32
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Fragile wrote:sirlynchmob wrote:Fragile wrote:JinxDragon wrote:To add an extra level of difficulty; Buildings are not Claimed prior to Deployment.
Where did you find this? Buildings are claimed if they are purchased as part of your army.
It's irrelevant really, buildings are treated like vehicles when determining if a special rule affects them. infiltrate says 3 non vehicles. ergo you can't infiltrate them.
Irrelevant or not, I still wish to know where that came from as I have not found that.
They're claimed at the start of the game. pg 112. Deploying for battle is where I believe the game starts, but it has been debated around here before on when the game actually starts. so once you say, ok I'm starting to deploy, the game has started and the building may be affected by some special rules that modify deployment. You can even put them in reserves if you'd like.
But claimed or not, they're treated like vehicles for determining special rules. And a claimed building is a unit in your army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 21:17:46
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The confusion comes because there are two ways fortifications come into the game.
1) they are part of the 'terrain' and are put down pretty early in the processs. These are 'unclaimed' etc etc.
2) they are purchased as part of your army, and are not on the field until you deploy them along with the rest of your army.
The ones you purchase, are part of your army, and are units of your army. They start the game already claimed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 22:12:58
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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I will get the Rule when I get back to the library, damn going back to work and all that, but it doesn't come Claimed when purchased.
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8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 22:31:24
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Confessor Of Sins
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JinxDragon wrote:I will get the Rule when I get back to the library, damn going back to work and all that, but it doesn't come Claimed when purchased.
As above: I'd be quite curious if you could quote or post a page number =)
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/22 23:29:38
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Again, give me some time seeing I am stuck in an office right now....
I only know it exists because it was something reviewed for the 'Mr Lonely' list I keep experimenting with. It was brought to my attention when I was documenting the problems an all Building list would have to over-come. It wasn't one that caused any issue, but it stood out because prior to that moment I would of assumed that all purchased Buildings are considered claimed as part of the List Building process. Prior to that point in the timeline the building is unclaimed as any other....
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8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 01:52:49
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Under
Preparing for Battle
The Battlefield
Fortifications: " If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models. If you decide to use a fortification as a piece of neutral scenery, then it is set up during this step."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 03:22:25
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Under stronghold assault buildings are claimed if you buy them for your army
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 03:26:40
Subject: Re:Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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“Fortifications that are buildings typically start the game under the control of one player, and can both attack enemy units and be attacked by them in turn. In many respects, these buildings function like any other unit in a player’s army”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “STRONGHOLD ASSAULT.” iBooks.
Okay, looks like fortifications definitely start under your control.
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"Listen up! Dis here's da Plan. Ya win. If ya didn't win, it's 'cuz ya didn't follow da Plan." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 09:04:02
Subject: Re:Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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Buildings of all types use aspects of the Transport vehicle rules. The main difference
between buildings and actual vehicles is that they can’t move, they can be
controlled by either side and units from either side can embark upon them.
IMO. Buildings are vehicles for more than just shooting
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/23 09:06:58
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 16:11:39
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Nem, Lot of other Rules, at this point it is pretty clear that the Rule has to single out Buildings for exceptions if they effect Vehicles. I just noticed that the rule in question was actually refered to above by another poster, but it does tell us when a Building gets the claimed status and the Rules that go along with it: At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player, whilst all other buildings are ‘unclaimed’. Prior to the Start point they have no claimed status simply because no Rule has yet given them such status, and only Claimed Buildings are considered to be Units in the Army. The official Start of the Game point can only be defined by looking at the timeline for when Rules that occur Before the Game must be resolved by. Before the Game contains this requirement on the matter: These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle... so Deployment is where the official Start point must lie. Within the Deployment for Battle section contains a very interesting line: Once the Armies are Chosen... which ensures Choosing an Army is something we resolve before before we have access to the Deployment Rules themselves and hit that Start point. As Choosing Your Army is also a noticeable time-line point in most Missions, one that is staked far before Deployment is on the Timeline, there additional evidence to show that List-building is done far before the official Start point of the game. It is at Deployment when they are officially Claimed and become Units Warlord Traits must be resolved at the Before the Game point in the timeline, such as selecting Units which will benefit At time of Resolving Traits the Fortification is just Terrain and not a Unit
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/23 16:26:06
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 16:24:03
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Ah, i see the reasoning. They are not claimed until they are deployed, but you select the "3 infiltrating units" from the warlord trait before you deploy.
At which point they are not even existent?
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 16:27:29
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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They exist in that semi-real state of 'off the table' with the rest of the full fledged Units awaiting deployment. I like to consider it the warp... cause it is more humorous to see Buildings floating along side the unprotected Units, all on their way to some other Battlefield.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/07/23 21:49:06
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 19:29:18
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I see the rule that has you select the Warlord trait before the game starts, I do not see the rule that requires you to determine which 3 units are selected has to be done before the game begins.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And you completely ignored the rule I quoted above:
"If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models."
The only way you can have the 'rest of' is if the fortification is "one of".
"Mary went to the store with the rest of the girls." Makes sense.
"Bob went to the store with the rest of the girls" Does not make sense.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/23 19:31:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 19:41:38
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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JinxDragon wrote:Nem,
Lot of other Rules, at this point it is pretty clear that the Rule has to single out Buildings for exceptions if they effect Vehicles.
I just noticed that the rule in question was actually refered to above by another poster, but it does tell us when a Building gets the claimed status and the Rules that go along with it:
At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player, whilst all other buildings are ‘unclaimed’.
Prior to the Start point they have no claimed status simply because no Rule has yet given them such status, and only Claimed Buildings are considered to be Units in the Army. The official Start of the Game point can only be defined by looking at the timeline for when Rules that occur Before the Game must be resolved by. Before the Game contains this requirement on the matter: These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle... so Deployment is where the official Start point must lie. Within the Deployment for Battle section contains a very interesting line: Once the Armies are Chosen... which ensures Choosing an Army is something we resolve before before we have access to the Deployment Rules themselves and hit that Start point. As Choosing Your Army is also a noticeable time-line point in most Missions, one that is staked far before Deployment is on the Timeline, there additional evidence to show that List-building is done far before the official Start point of the game.
It is at Deployment when they are officially Claimed and become Units
Warlord Traits must be resolved at the Before the Game point in the timeline, such as selecting Units which will benefit
At time of Resolving Traits the Fortification is just Terrain and not a Unit
Can we also remember master of ambush allows for 3 non-vehicle models and buildings are treated as vehicles for use of special rules. Buildings are illegal targets for master of ambush, no matter when they are claimed, they can not infiltrate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 19:44:34
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Hey, maybe Bob's just special, okay? Don't judge.
Given that fortifications take up a force org slot and things that take up a force org slot are units, we have to technically say that fortifications are units from the point of selection.
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"Listen up! Dis here's da Plan. Ya win. If ya didn't win, it's 'cuz ya didn't follow da Plan." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 22:13:23
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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SirLynchmob, Have not over-looked that, but it is irrelevant to the academical debate of 'when does X occur' which is far more fun right now. Coredump, Where in the Warlord Trait does it give permission to make the choice at a later point in the timeline? Given that the Rule states that choice X occurs, and doesn't state that choice X can be delayed, we can only make that choice when it is presented to us... before the Start of the Game. As for the whole 'Rest of the Units' take a look at the context of the Rule: During Deployment I won't go into detail pointing out that the subject matter of that sentence could be the Entire Army, which makes 'Rest of' read a great deal differently, because it is irrelevant. As the sentence relates to a point after 'Before the Game' abilities have to be Resolved, it further supports the time-line presented within all the other Rules I have quoted. Until someone can prove that Deployment occurs before the Start of the Game, instead of being part of the 'Start of the Game process,' then Buildings are Claimed either before the time it comes to physically put them on the table-top or at the very same time as that act occurs. That would mean, even if your interpretation is correct, that it still doesn't create a conflict with anything that I have put forth.... TehGonzalez, Where does it state that things which take up Force Organization Slots are Units? There are Army Building methods which do not use the Force Organization Slots. - Reviewed: The Choosing your Army section does refer to everything within as if they where Units, which doesn't make Buildings Unit but does even more wonderful broken things to the Rules then I imagined!
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/07/24 03:26:36
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 22:56:42
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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JinxDragon wrote:
Coredump,
Where in the Warlord Trait does it give permission to make the choice at a later point in the timeline?
Given that the Rule states that choice X occurs, and doesn't state that choice X can be delayed, we can only make that choice when it is presented to us... before the Start of the Game.
You are creating a rule that does not exist. The trait says three units get an ability, it does not say when I must decide which three. You have created an additional restriction that does not exist in the rules.
So, please either present the rule that states it must be done immediately, or present the rule that I am breaking by deciding during deployment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 23:01:51
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Confessor Of Sins
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coredump wrote:JinxDragon wrote:
Coredump,
Where in the Warlord Trait does it give permission to make the choice at a later point in the timeline?
Given that the Rule states that choice X occurs, and doesn't state that choice X can be delayed, we can only make that choice when it is presented to us... before the Start of the Game.
You are creating a rule that does not exist. The trait says three units get an ability, it does not say when I must decide which three. You have created an additional restriction that does not exist in the rules.
So, please either present the rule that states it must be done immediately, or present the rule that I am breaking by deciding during deployment.
I would actually agree that it is "3 units of your choice", and the Fortification is a Unit in your army from the moment you count the point cost. So it may get the "Infiltrate" special Rule at any time between being written down on your list and being placed on the table, infiltrated.
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/23 23:14:07
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Coredump, It is not enough to simply state that you have permission to do X, when you are attempting to do more then just X. Should the action being attempted is something akin to X but a little different, such as X+1, then the Rule being quoted for permission needs to specify doing X+1 is also as valid as X. To use this situation as an example, the action being attempted is not making the choice but delaying that choice till a later point in the time-line. For it to be a legal move the Rule granting the ability to make a choice would also need to address the ability to delay the choice, usually by providing us a window in which we can make that choice. Without such a window it can only be not be stated that permission to make the choice exists past the moment a choice is presented to us. As the Rule itself mentions nothing about being allowed to delay that choice to another point in the timeline, permission to do exactly that has not been granted.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/07/23 23:30:26
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 18:08:31
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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JinxDragon,
A "Unit" is loosely defined by the BRB as one or more models. Models are defined as "Citadel Miniatures used to play games of Warhammer." You're correct that the rules don't specify that things that take up a Force Org slot are units, but the exception tends to be when more than one unit is taken per Force Org slot. With that precedent, I think the burden is on you to show that Fortifications are not units.
As for delaying the choice of unit to grant infiltration, I get your argument, but what I don't understand is why the "X" form of the rule is an immediate choice rather than a "whenever you want."
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"Listen up! Dis here's da Plan. Ya win. If ya didn't win, it's 'cuz ya didn't follow da Plan." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 18:19:50
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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TehGonzalez wrote:JinxDragon,
A "Unit" is loosely defined by the BRB as one or more models. Models are defined as "Citadel Miniatures used to play games of Warhammer." You're correct that the rules don't specify that things that take up a Force Org slot are units, but the exception tends to be when more than one unit is taken per Force Org slot. With that precedent, I think the burden is on you to show that Fortifications are not units.
Easy enough, terrain is normally not a unit because models must be organised into ‘units’ and something is not a model unless it has a unit type:
"The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organised into ‘units’." (Models and Units chapter, Forming a Unit section 1st sentence).
"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section." (Models and Units chapter, Other Important Information section 1st sentence).
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/24 18:26:37
Subject: Infiltrating Fortifications?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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JinxDragon wrote:Coredump,
It is not enough to simply state that you have permission to do X, when you are attempting to do more then just X.
I am given permission to give up to 3 units Infiltrate..... so I am *following* that rule. There is no further restriction detailing when that has to happen. You are creating that rule. If it said "before deployment" or if it said "immediately" or something similar, you would have a point. But it gives me permission to do exactly what I am doing.
As the Rule itself mentions nothing about being allowed to delay that choice to another point in the timeline, permission to do exactly that has not been granted.
As the Rule itself mentions nothing about being allowed to make that choice immediately, permission to do exactly that has not been granted.
I could just as easily make the claim that you *have* to do it during deployment, since there is no rule allowing you to do it immediately.
It works both ways.... the point is the rule says *nothing* about any time restrictions. It does not say to do immediately. it does not say you can't do it immediately. It does not say to do it during deployment, it does not say you can't do it during deployment. All it does is give permission to give 3 units infiltrate.... that is *all* it says. As long as you do that, you are following the rules.
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