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So I was thinking exactly how you create a Space Marine. From memory, the creation happens in stages. There's different sets of surgeries for different implantations (third lung, second heart, the brain node, black carapace, etc). But I couldn't think of how the gene-seed actually fits into the scenario. It says that a gene-seed would replicate itself once and only once inside a Space Marine and upon maturation the gene-seed would be removed by an apocathary to be implanted to the next neophyte.

First question, how are the organs differentiated from gene-seeds restocked? The fluff says that not all neophytes live through the process and they die at various stages of the transformation. This would mean that you would have a surplus of specific organs while some you are in desperate need of, such as the first set of organs used in the first surgeries. The gene-seed every only makes one set of organs, how are these organs restocked? And even if al the neophytes survive, you can only make one Space Marine, not two. Say you have a gene-seed in a Space Marine. He lets gland mature into another gene-seed. So now you have a new and old gene-seed. The new one can replicate into another gene-seed and its organs but the old one cannot do that anymore. So how would you implant the old gene-seed and non-existing accompanying organs to make another Space Marine. It would seem like one Space Marine can only ever make another Space Marine and not two. And if the neophyte doesn't survive then no more Space Marines.

And how in the world would you get an excess of gene-seed to submit to the High Lords of Terra or even have a secret stash of them? Again, from fluff the gene-seed can only ever replicate once. After replicating they are either stored for future use or placed in a neophyte. If a neophyte were to die in the process, the gene-seed is salvaged but what would happen if the second gene-seed wasn't fully developed? Now you have two unreplicatable gene-seeds. Add in combat loses where the gene-seed was destroyed from a blast, surgical error where the gene-seed was damaged during surgery, the life expectancy of each gene-seed from wear and tear, and now you have more gene-seed loss than you have gain. This would be almost like a half life situation. After XX amount of years, you'll only have half the gene-seed stock available. After another XX years, a quarter of the stock. After a while, there should be not enough gene-seeds to create anymore Space Marines. Even using vat-grown "clones" to grow the gene-seeds and organs, there's no 100% chance of acceptance of the gene-seed I think. I guess they have to find a suitable candidate that accepted all the organs, and use their DNA to create the clones to accept further gene-seed, but I'm not sure if its a 100% acceptance rate.

Both progenoids can be reused. The purpose of the progenoid is to gather samples from the other organs over time, so that when it is removed it has the genetic material necessary to grow a whole new set of organs. If the marine is killed before the progenoid can mature than yes, that progenoid is useless I suppose, but a mature marine will produce two usable progenoids from his body.

It's all right here:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.U87dY0CmVqM

First, the second geneseed is removed from a marine after they have died. That's how the second geneseed gets used and that's why apothecaries are so important to have in the field.

Second, you said it yourself. If the chapter is already at maximum capacity (which is slightly more than 1,000 marines, but that's a different discussion), then young marines can still have their 5-year geneseed removed and stocked up for later use. It doesn't automatically have to be put into a new recruit. And what exactly is the "life expectancy of gene-seed from wear and tear?" Geneseed is is seen as one of the most important commodities of a chapter, it's certainly not going to experience any 'wear and tear' after its been returned to the chapter. As long as more marines are living past 10 years of service than there are marines not getting their geneseed removed at all (and for the majority of chapters, this is the case) then they will have a surplus, or at the very less, maintain a stable supply.

Well when a daddy space marine and a.. another daddy space Maine I guess... love each other very much...

SkyHawk wrote:
First question, how are the organs differentiated from gene-seeds restocked?

I am not certain what this question is asking. However, there are three stages involved with gene-seed. You have first of all the Zygotes harvested from a mature (five years for the neck and ten years for the chest; apothecaries harvesting from dead Astartes is greatly over-used in the fiction) Progenoid Gland, one Zygote for each implant. These Zygotes are then grown to maturity in laboratory conditions and preserved for future use. Lastly, the mature organs are implanted into a new recruit. There is no mention in the background if any differentiation is made between mature Zygotes that have been preserved for months, years, decades et cetera so presumably there is no issue with how long they have been stored.

The fluff says that not all neophytes live through the process and they die at various stages of the transformation. This would mean that you would have a surplus of specific organs while some you are in desperate need of, such as the first set of organs used in the first surgeries.

Not all Chapters have complete sets of implants though. The Imperial Fists for instance lack the Sus-An Membrane and the Betcher's Gland so it is possible these losses come about because, for whatever reason recruits reject the implants and/or die as a result of having them. It is the Black Carapace and the Progenoid Glands which are vital to a Chapter and since they are the last implants a recruit should have proved viable.

Of course, logically this dose give rise to several conclusions/questions. Firstly, most recruits don't fail the implantation process. Probably. This could be a case of the writers not giving enough thought to how this all works.

Secondly, these recruits don't count against a Chapter's one thousand man complement so a Chapter could therefore have numerous recruits acting as little more than test-slaves to produce more Zygotes; when a Chapter is founded it seems plausible that they harvest nigh on two thousand sets of Zygotes and that they begin recruitment right away, there is potential there for an awful lot of not-space marines quietly producing zygotes for the Chapter.

Thirdly, the implants can be salvaged and re-used. I have not read of an instance where this happens, the assumption is that a dead recruit equals lost implants but this might not be the case and since these Zygotes are, in and of themselves, fully mature organs, it is possible that they can be re-used. An Oolitic Kidney is an Oolitic Kidney, one would think, though it begs the question, what is the difference between an Oolitic Kidney from the freezer and one from a recently deceased Astartes? Sure, one is older than the other, but, the organ works throughout a Marine's life, it does what it does with no apparent use-by date so why must a recruit necessarily have a never-before-used Oolitic Kidney? Do they even always get a brand new Oolitic Kidney?

This is different for both the Black Carapace, which matures within the Marine once implanted, and the Progenoid Glands which also mature with the Marine and should have both been harvested when the Marine was in his late twenties/early thirties anyway. This is not so for the other implants so potentially they are salvageable and re-usable a simple matter of organ donation as with any deceased person.

The gene-seed every only makes one set of organs, how are these organs restocked?

And even if al the neophytes survive, you can only make one Space Marine, not two.

Say you have a gene-seed in a Space Marine. He lets gland mature into another gene-seed. So now you have a new and old gene-seed.

The new one can replicate into another gene-seed and its organs but the old one cannot do that anymore.

So how would you implant the old gene-seed and non-existing accompanying organs to make another Space Marine.

It would seem like one Space Marine can only ever make another Space Marine and not two.

And if the neophyte doesn't survive then no more Space Marines.

This is why I say the trope or harvesting Progenoid Glands from dead Marines is over-used.

Let's ignore the fiction and look at the source material. The neck Progenoid matures in five years and the chest Progenoid in ten (and no, I don't know why one should be slower than the other, they are identical organs and it makes no logical sense to me but hey). Once mature a Progenoid can be harvested. That is the end of the story and any talk of letting a Progenoid stew because that must help somehow is merely a fan created rationalisation for all of these centuries old Astartes having Progenoid Glands to harvest when they die. Going by the source material this should only ever happen with very young Marines and realistically, the apothecary would be salvaging an immature Progenoid Gland.

The simple fact is that these organs can and surely must be harvested as soon as they are mature, to leave them to stew makes no logical sense at all, mature is mature it's as simple as that and to delay removal risks damage and possible destruction which is crazy.

A Marine has two Progenoids which both collect material from the other implants, including each other, and therefore provide two sets of implants not one. There is no new/old Progenoid Glands, there is the marine's own Progenoid Glands which generate within themselves two Progenoid Gland zygotes just as they do for the other implants. A Space Marine therefore generates four Progenoid Gland Zygotes.

And how in the world would you get an excess of gene-seed to submit to the High Lords of Terra or even have a secret stash of them?

As I say earlier, a Chapter likely has stock which, as new Zygotes are created by each successive generation of Marines, rolls over meaning a Chapter could have, potentially, many hundreds of sets of Zygotes.

Again, from fluff the gene-seed can only ever replicate once.

Yes and No. A mature Progenoid Gland once harvested is just so much medical waste, but a Marine has two, therefore two sets of implants.

After replicating they are either stored for future use or placed in a neophyte. If a neophyte were to die in the process, the gene-seed is salvaged but what would happen if the second gene-seed wasn't fully developed? Now you have two unreplicatable gene-seeds.

By this point, being killed by the implantation process should no longer be an issue, hence why the recruit is implanted with the two crucial implants, Progenoids and Black Carapace. So long as the recruit lives five years then he will have produced a mature Progenoid which can be used to replace him so, no loss. If he survives ten years then not only will he have produced the necessary to replace himself but enough for another Astartes. This is why recruits/scouts are used how they are used, the Chapter gives them combat experience without throwing them in at the deep end (usually) thus ensuring that, bar really bad luck or a total feth up, both Progenoids should reach maturity.

Add in combat loses where the gene-seed was destroyed from a blast, surgical error where the gene-seed was damaged during surgery, the life expectancy of each gene-seed from wear and tear, and now you have more gene-seed loss than you have gain. This would be almost like a half life situation. After XX amount of years, you'll only have half the gene-seed stock available. After another XX years, a quarter of the stock. After a while, there should be not enough gene-seeds to create anymore Space Marines. Even using vat-grown "clones" to grow the gene-seeds and organs, there's no 100% chance of acceptance of the gene-seed I think. I guess they have to find a suitable candidate that accepted all the organs, and use their DNA to create the clones to accept further gene-seed, but I'm not sure if its a 100% acceptance rate.

I understand why you are coming to this conclusion but I believe it is based on misinterpretation of the background which, taken as is, does not lead to this situation.

Of course, some Chapters do have problems with the Progenoids. I wasn't entirely certain if Sarah Cawkwell had made a mistake with the background or what, but, she has the Silver Skulls with only one Progenoid Gland and there is enough of a hint from the source material that a Chapter/s can lose/have lost the ability to reproduce Progenoids and/or the Black Carapace and these Chapters dwindle away in the manner you describe above.

I subscribe to the theory that most chapters have tons of donor farms where new progeonoid glands are grown. Attriting a chapter is basically impossible, most of the time that you hear about a chapter getting wiped its all at once or because there was a genetic failure or because their apothecaries all died.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I subscribe to the theory that most chapters have tons of donor farms where new progeonoid glands are grown. Attriting a chapter is basically impossible, most of the time that you hear about a chapter getting wiped its all at once or because there was a genetic failure or because their apothecaries all died.

This is actually supposed to happen when Terra wants to create a new chapter. They take a slave, implant progenoids, harvest them, implant them in two slaves, and so on and so forth until they have organs for 1000 space marines.