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My biker lord kills his challenge opponent at initiative 10 with his hammer of wrath.

Come initiative 1, does my lord make his attacks, and all wounds carry over into the unit? Or does my lord not get to attack, because his model he would be directing his attacks against is now dead?

And does he pile in at initiative step 1, after rolling hammer of wrath at I10?

Don't have my rulebook with me but I think it says that a challenge is separate from the rest of the melee phase and attacks can only be against the opponent of the challenge. So no pile in and no other attacks against the rest of the unit.

It doesn't matter since you overkill wounds into the rest of the unit.

 CrownAxe wrote:
It doesn't matter since you overkill wounds into the rest of the unit.

But if you never got to swing, how can you cause wounds? You're not allowed to attack anything else, you don't get Pile-In (and the enemies aren't allowed to attack you unless all other targets are down).

Had a similar situation happen when the MSS killed the model before the Overlord got to swing.

Rules tell us that the model is still considered to be in the challenge until the end of combat. It didn't make sense, but we still rolled against the champions WS/T and just put the wounds on the unit. Seemed the best way to deal with a situation that wasn't addressed.

 Akar wrote:

Rules tell us that the model is still considered to be in the challenge until the end of combat. It didn't make sense, but we still rolled against the champions WS/T and just put the wounds on the unit. Seemed the best way to deal with a situation that wasn't addressed.

That's what I'd do too.

Spetulhu wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
It doesn't matter since you overkill wounds into the rest of the unit.

But if you never got to swing, how can you cause wounds? You're not allowed to attack anything else, you don't get Pile-In (and the enemies aren't allowed to attack you unless all other targets are down).

There still is an enemy unit, why doesn't he get to swing and pile in?

 CrownAxe wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
It doesn't matter since you overkill wounds into the rest of the unit.

But if you never got to swing, how can you cause wounds? You're not allowed to attack anything else, you don't get Pile-In (and the enemies aren't allowed to attack you unless all other targets are down).

There still is an enemy unit, why doesn't he get to swing and pile in?

I think the confusion is because there was a challenge issued, but the HOW attacks killed the challenger/challengee before the Challenge combat took place. And since both models were technically in the challenge, but his opponent is now dead, he effectively doesn't have a target to swing at anymore and sits that round of combat out. Or, thats what I'm gathering anyway.

 CrownAxe wrote:
There still is an enemy unit, why doesn't he get to swing and pile in?

I don't think most sane players would disagree with this statement. It's a simple issue with the rules telling us specifically that it doesn't work this way.

Pg. 102

(Fighting a Challenge) 'When rolling To Hit and To Wound, they always use the Weapon Skill and Toughness of their opponent.'

Because we don't have instructions on how to handle the situation when he dies, the 'always' part to us meant that you use the his profile, even if he isn't there.

(Combatant Slain) 'When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be on going until the end of the phase...'

Backs up the first point in a weird twisted way, and actually forces us to remain in the challenge. This makes the 'Pile-in and swing against the unit' a weaker way to resolve the attacks rules wise. This was the source of the confusion for us at least, so we went back and applied the 'Fighting a Challenge' rule, and while it was odd, it worked and we felt it was fair to both sides.

the new rules allow for the challerger to kill the rest of the unit once the other challenger fighter is dead, so yes your PW fist gets to swing and kill them,

the new rules ALSO allow for the unit to kill your lone challenger, provided they have nothing else to swing at.

so challenges no longer force you to only kill one guy, but they also do not protect your lone guy from the other models in the unit just because he challenged.

Im pretty sure the issue isn't what gets to die, so no one is debating the carry over rules. It's HOW they get to do it.

 Akar wrote:

(Combatant Slain) 'When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be on going until the end of the phase...'

Backs up the first point in a weird twisted way, and actually forces us to remain in the challenge. This makes the 'Pile-in and swing against the unit' a weaker way to resolve the attacks rules wise. This was the source of the confusion for us at least, so we went back and applied the 'Fighting a Challenge' rule, and while it was odd, it worked and we felt it was fair to both sides.

Please read the whole quote, leaving off a part of it is disingenuous.

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces (see below)."

The part you left off is really important. "for the purposes of Outside Forces" means that you can only allocate to a model in a challenge once all other members of the squad are dead.

The challenge only is considered to be ongoing for the purpose of other models allocating wounds to the character in said challenge. not for any other purpose, so the model with HoW would get his swings if he were engaged, but he does not get to pile in because of this rule: "Furthermore, neither the characters in the challenge nor the models that have made way to allow the characters to get into base contact make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached." (Characters chapter, Fighting a challenge section).

So he would kill with HoW, not be allowed to pile in, but swing at the unit ( WS / T ) if he can?

EDIT: NVM, just read the rule that prevents them from piling-in.

 Akar wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
So he would kill with HoW, not be allowed to pile in, but swing at the unit ( WS / T ) if he can?

He'd still get to 'Pile-in' when his initiative step came around, since HoW doesn't trigger/prevent piling-in. Following the rules for piling-in, he would have to move into base contact with an enemy model, even if the challenger is no longer there.

No he does not get to pile in...

"Furthermore, neither the characters in the challenge nor the models that have made way to allow the characters to get into base contact make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached." (Characters chapter, Fighting a challenge section).

Well, he doesn't really need to pile in, does he? He still counts as in base to base with the challengee until the end of the round, so regardless as to whether he's in btb with other models or within 2" of a friendly, he gets to swing still right?

Hammer of wrath is an odd bird, though. I've had it screw my opponents out of entire close combats. He charged at the end of a long line of cultists with a full squad of white scars. His whole unit got into btb, but only with a few cultists. His hammer of wrath attacks killed like 8 or 9, which was daisychained way out away from his unit. When he piled in, nobody managed to get to btb, so nobody got to swing. I then piled in at initiative 3, made it to btb, and not only got to attack with my cultists but got to swing with my chaos lord, who wasn't engaged and able to make a challenge, but now was within range to swing.

The combat did not end well for him, all because of his "bonus" rule. Remember: Hammer responsibly.

He kills the challenger with HoW. Good Job. Now he watches the rest of the assault without participating, because he is still in a challenge and doesn't have a legal target to allocate attacks to.

So you have the opposite interpretation of everyone else in the thread?

Explain why, please.

In addition, could you tell me if I'm able to simply forego my hammer of wrath attack and not roll it?

 Spellbound wrote:
In addition, could you tell me if I'm able to simply forego my hammer of wrath attack and not roll it?

No, you can't opt to not complete a mandatory action. Hammer of Wrath isn't a "may", it simply generates a hit that has to be resolved.

 DeathReaper wrote:

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces (see below)."

The character is still in a challenge until the end of the assault phase.
The assaults are two separate fights, with the exception that wounds spill over at the end.
What happens if you fight the non challenge side first?
HoW certainly goes at init 10, but init 10 in that assault/challenge. The rest of the squad has its own init 10 phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
although, with wounds spilling over now, i guess the init phases do need to happen at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spellbound wrote:
His whole unit got into btb, but only with a few cultists. His hammer of wrath attacks killed like 8 or 9, which was daisychained way out away from his unit. When he piled in, nobody managed to get to btb, so nobody got to swing. I then piled in at initiative 3, made it to btb, and not only got to attack with my cultists but got to swing with my chaos lord, who wasn't engaged and able to make a challenge, but now was within range to swing.

Was the 'he' your chaos lord? how can he deal HoW attacks and then issue a challenge? Doesn't the challenge need to be declared before init 10?

Here's another thing I was never able to quite understand, regarding challenges and HoW:

I charge my cultists with chaos lord on a bike into combat.

Chaos lord does NOT make it into base to base. No HoW.

Chaos lord issues a challenge. Enemy sergeant accepts. Sergeant moves into base to base.

At initiative 10, I'm in btb. I roll HoW? Or I don't, because I didn't make it to btb? Or I DO, because due to the challenge I DID make it to btb?

I would think you do, since you don't hit init 10 until you are b2b in the challenge. I always interpreted issuing/accepting a challenge init 11.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spellbound wrote:
His whole unit got into btb, but only with a few cultists. His hammer of wrath attacks killed like 8 or 9, which was daisychained way out away from his unit. When he piled in, nobody managed to get to btb, so nobody got to swing. I then piled in at initiative 3, made it to btb, and not only got to attack with my cultists but got to swing with my chaos lord, who wasn't engaged and able to make a challenge, but now was within range to swing.

Was the 'he' your chaos lord? how can he deal HoW attacks and then issue a challenge? Doesn't the challenge need to be declared before init 10?

I also hate the "put the models aside" bit about challenges. i know a couple fellas who take advantage of this and move their guys 6" forward, then after combat sweeping advance another d6, and end up 6-12" away from where they were when they issued the challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spellbound wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spellbound wrote:
His whole unit got into btb, but only with a few cultists. His hammer of wrath attacks killed like 8 or 9, which was daisychained way out away from his unit. When he piled in, nobody managed to get to btb, so nobody got to swing. I then piled in at initiative 3, made it to btb, and not only got to attack with my cultists but got to swing with my chaos lord, who wasn't engaged and able to make a challenge, but now was within range to swing.

Was the 'he' your chaos lord? how can he deal HoW attacks and then issue a challenge? Doesn't the challenge need to be declared before init 10?

No "he" was my white scars opponent, charging my unit of cultists with chaos lord that was stretched out. At combat start, my lord was unengaged and unable to issue/accept challenges. At initiative 1, my lord piled in and was able to swing. His guys weren't. Their HoW killed too many cultists, such that after he piled in nobody was in btb, but then my pile in brought my guys to btb. This particular anecdote is a funny HoW situation, but is not related to the rules question I posted for this thread, so don't try to connect them.

Seems there's some division going on then. Some think that due to wounds spilling over I DO get to swing, and the wounds just go on other folks, while some think I don't get to, because my challenge opponent is dead before that initiative step came around. Hmmm.

I could try using this against enemy warbosses on bikes, which abound lately. Save my squads a good 4-5 casualties. Depending on how any "official" wording goes. Seems to me he should still be able to swing.

Top of battle, challenges declared, then HoW resolved. HoW kills one challenger, init 10-2 the opponents models must pile in probably putting the other challenger back into engagement range. Init 1 Power Fist attacks happen, but only if the model is engaged which since he can't pile in himself only happens if the enemies modeled piled into him at their initiative steps.

I'm not a fan of challenges to begin with. I think it's just extra rules that slow down the game and doesn't really add much to the gameplay or narrative.

 deviantduck wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces (see below)."

The character is still in a challenge until the end of the assault phase.

Only "for the purposes of Outside Forces", as I have cited.

The assaults are two separate fights, with the exception that wounds spill over at the end.

This is not true, it is a single combat.

What happens if you fight the non challenge side first?

you fight in Initiative order, so if there is a challenge with I4 and the other combatants have I5, you do I5 first.

HoW certainly goes at init 10, but init 10 in that assault/challenge. The rest of the squad has its own init 10 phase.

It is all the same I10 it is all one combat.

Wouldn't "for the purposes of outside forces" mean, if interpreted broadly, that I can still attack, because my attacks are able to affect outside forces?

Outsiders can kill challengers, they just have to allocate their wounds to other models first. Likewise, challengers can affect outsiders, they just have to apply wounds to the challenger first. If there is no "first" (no other models), the outsiders attack the challenger. Why can't it then work the other way, that the challenger still hits other models, there's just no "first" to put his wounds against, so they go elsewhere?


This was an argument the other way when the rules first came out. Some people claimed that if I was a unit of chaos lord + single cultist and I was in a challenge, the other models in their unit COULD hurt me because they applied wounds to the cultist FIRST and then spilled over. But in the next round, as there WERE no other models, they could NOT hurt my chaos lord because the rule specifically said you MUST apply wounds to other models first.

Naturally, that's ridiculous. Having to apply wounds to other models first was specifying an order, not establishing a requirement. Why wouldn't it work the same way for the character in the challenge?

1 lone chaos lord vs 1 Sergeant, and 9 marines.
The Lord and the Sgt are in a challenge.

Which of these are correct?

A: The lord kills the sgt via HoW at init 10. Combat is now over. 1 wound is dealt and the Lord won the entire assault. The 9 marines now take a morale test.

B: The lord kills the sgt via HoW at init 10. The challenge is now over and the lord then attacks the 9 marines. And the 9 marines attack the lord back.

C: The lord fails to wounds the sgt during HoW. Deals 2 wounds to sgt during normal attacks. Sgt dies, 1 wound is allocated to remaining 9 marines. 1 marine dies. Combat is now over. 8 marines take a morale test.

D: The lord and the sgt fail to wound each other in the challenge. The other 9 marines nap.

E: The lord and the sgt fail to wound each other in the challenge. The other 9 marines attack the lord.