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Only B and E are correct, as far as I know it.

The 9 marines are definitely able to attack the lord, regardless of the challenge outcome. That's fairly clear.

The only question is if the lord kills the sergeant with HoW, does he get to make his power fist attacks. I say yes, just like choice B, except the "the challenge is now over" is not necessary. Challenge or no challenge, those other marines can attack the lord.

B and E are correct as per the RAW.

 deviantduck wrote:
1 lone chaos lord vs 1 Sergeant, and 9 marines.
The Lord and the Sgt are in a challenge.

Which of these are correct?

A: The lord kills the sgt via HoW at init 10. Combat is now over. 1 wound is dealt and the Lord won the entire assault. The 9 marines now take a morale test.

B: The lord kills the sgt via HoW at init 10. The challenge is now over and the lord then attacks the 9 marines. And the 9 marines attack the lord back.

C: The lord fails to wounds the sgt during HoW. Deals 2 wounds to sgt during normal attacks. Sgt dies, 1 wound is allocated to remaining 9 marines. 1 marine dies. Combat is now over. 8 marines take a morale test.

D: The lord and the sgt fail to wound each other in the challenge. The other 9 marines nap.

E: The lord and the sgt fail to wound each other in the challenge. The other 9 marines attack the lord.

B and E are correct


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The only question I think is if the lord swings against the Sgts WS or the marines WS.

I would like to point out that there is no 'may' involved, if the Model is Engaged in Combat it is required to proceed down the sequence.
The only question is, as others have pointed out, what Weapon Skill would the Challenger compete against?

JinxDragon wrote:
I would like to point out that there is no 'may' involved, if the Model is Engaged in Combat it is required to proceed down the sequence.
The only question is, as others have pointed out, what Weapon Skill would the Challenger compete against?

The units WS, why would it be anything else?

Deathreaper,
I will need to review a Rule to ensure that I am not mistakenly remembering something, but I do remember that a challenge is on-going till the end of the Phase.
So I will review if the Weapon Skill used in the Challenge is the Unit's or the opponents and get back to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be at the Weapon skill of the Unit, the Challenge has ended for all purposes bar Out-side Forces.

 Akar wrote:

Pg. 102

(Fighting a Challenge) 'When rolling To Hit and To Wound, they always use the Weapon Skill and Toughness of their opponent.'

(Combatant Slain) 'When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be on going until the end of the phase...'

i think this covers it all... "the challenge is still considered to be ongoing" so yes, the lord can make his attacks in ini step 1
but he still uses the chalengees stats to hit and to wound.

When i wrote that, i wrote B and E to be the only two to be incorrect. I don't understand everyone's logic.

The challenge is ongoing until the end of the phase. the challenge is supposed to be separate from the rest of the fighting. If a lone model is in a challenge vs 1 model in a 10 man squad, and the other 9 marines get to attack him, what is the point of the challenge? How does it make it any different than a lone model fighting a 10 man squad without a challenge?

6th had all of the rules for people not engaged in the challenge to support their champion via rerolls, and it seems all of that is removed, but the rest of all of the challenge rules seem to be the same, barring the wound spilling.

 deviantduck wrote:


The challenge is ongoing until the end of the phase. the challenge is supposed to be separate from the rest of the fighting.

The bold part is no longer true, it was last edition, but not in 7E. It is no longer 'separate', it just creates a different, um... damage priority.

If a lone model is in a challenge vs 1 model in a 10 man squad, and the other 9 marines get to attack him, what is the point of the challenge? How does it make it any different than a lone model fighting a 10 man squad without a challenge?

Challenges now are all about (and really only about) who gets wounded first from an attack. The Character will wound the other character first, and then the rest of the bad guy unit. The good guy unit will wound the other unit first, and then the bad guy character.

So, if my Hive Tyrant charges your tac marines, and I challenge your sgt, I get to wound him first, instead of you just putting the wounds on to the rest of the unit. (I *believe* LoS does not work either... have to check) But if my 5 attacks all hit and all wound, after they kill the Sgt, they will start killing tac marines. Likewise, regardless of what I do, all of your living models will get to attack the HT at your init step.

6th had all of the rules for people not engaged in the challenge to support their champion via rerolls, and it seems all of that is removed, but the rest of all of the challenge rules seem to be the same, barring the wound spilling.

Well yeah... but the 'wound spilling' is a huge change, and is what makes this all possible....

I guess my brain is still wrapped up with 6ed challenges.

It all makes more sense from that perspective, i just didn't pick up that PoV from the rules.

Thanks Mr. Dump.

Rednoak,
Incorrect as that quoted section is incomplete, there is a condition after the ... which is vital to this discussion. I will let other readers and yourself look at the Combatant Slain Rule in the Rule-book for themselves. It is a good warning why you don't just blindly take an internet post at it's word and if you see a Rule being quoted with ... it is best to read the rest of the paragraph being mentioned for one's self. In this scenario the Challenge is considered ongoing for one and one purpose alone, which does not include calculating where the surviving Characters Wounds are Allocated too, what Weapon Skill that Character rolls against and other such things involved in actually carrying out an Attack. All those exist in an exception that is no longer evoked, so we default back to the non-Challenge method of doing such things.

That one thing is very important however, and why it is a great idea to Challenge when your coming in with a Hammer of Wrath or other high initiative bonus attack, so please review the ... for yourselves.

RedNoak wrote:

 Akar wrote:

Pg. 102

(Fighting a Challenge) 'When rolling To Hit and To Wound, they always use the Weapon Skill and Toughness of their opponent.'

(Combatant Slain) 'When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be on going until the end of the phase...'

i think this covers it all... "the challenge is still considered to be ongoing" so yes, the lord can make his attacks in ini step 1
but he still uses the chalengees stats to hit and to wound.

There is a missing part of that quote...

"for the purposes of Outside Forces" was left off and it important to the discussion.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/606634.page#7049110

chanceafs wrote:
Top of battle, challenges declared, then HoW resolved. HoW kills one challenger, init 10-2 the opponents models must pile in probably putting the other challenger back into engagement range. Init 1 Power Fist attacks happen, but only if the model is engaged which since he can't pile in himself only happens if the enemies modeled piled into him at their initiative steps.

I feel he's got the right of it.

Challenges declared.
HoW challenger goes at at Initiative 10 (with no pile-in move before, since he had to be in base contact to issue a challenge in the first place).
Hammer of Wrath resolved.
Other models in combat make Pile-In moves and attacks (rules specify that you only make Pile In moves at your highest initiative attack, if you have attacks at multiple initiatives).
HoW challenger makes his remaining attacks at I1.

The only circumstance where he wouldn't make those attacks was if he wasn't engaged in combat any longer. That could happen, as it's possible for Pile In moves to be insufficient to reach the enemy, but the rulebook covers that situation, and tells us that the models are unable to engage using all remaining pile in moves, then the assault comes to an end and all remaining initiative steps are lost (pg 49).

So it's possible for a, say, lone Biker Lord to only get his Hammer of Wrath attack in a challenge, but its pretty unlikely. For example, he might be charging a spread out, oblique line of models, each at maximum possible consistency distance, with his target at the front and closest. He fires his bike-mounted weapons and the target uses Look Out Sir to spread those attacks to the models behind him, who are within 6". That shooting kills one or more of them, removing the closest. The biker lord charges and contacts his target, issuing a challenge, which is not declined. Hammer of Wrath kills the target. The remaining troops are now more than 3" away from the Biker Lord, and cannot close to engage him using a pile in move (since the closest is at least 4" away, as they were at maximum coherency distance). That combat would end at the end of their initiative phase and the biker lord would get no attacks. He wins the combat by the HoW wounds (which would probably be one, unless he somehow had a HoW strong enough to cause instant death). It's a pretty specific group of circumstances (most particuarly, the grouping of foes which is so broad as to prevent them from piling in), but it's possible. And, for once, it seems to be fairly well described in the existing rules!

 DeathReaper wrote:

Spoiler:

RedNoak wrote:

 Akar wrote:

Pg. 102

(Fighting a Challenge) 'When rolling To Hit and To Wound, they always use the Weapon Skill and Toughness of their opponent.'

(Combatant Slain) 'When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be on going until the end of the phase...'

i think this covers it all... "the challenge is still considered to be ongoing" so yes, the lord can make his attacks in ini step 1
but he still uses the chalengees stats to hit and to wound.

There is a missing part of that quote...

"for the purposes of Outside Forces" was left off and it important to the discussion.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/606634.page#7049110

The part you left off is really important. "for the purposes of Outside Forces" means that you can only allocate to a model in a challenge once all other members of the squad are dead

...and if the chalengee is dead you start allocate wounds to the squad. i fail to see how this is not clear?
since "for the purposes of Outside Forces" also means if you kill the guy you are still considered beeing in a challenge. to me it sounds like a two-way-scenario. so if you kill your challenger before you could do all attacks, you still use the dead guys stats to determine hit and wound rolls.

RedNoak wrote:
...and if the chalengee is dead you start allocate wounds to the squad. i fail to see how this is not clear?

That part is clear. if you kill the chalengee then any excess wounds are applied to the remaining models in that unit. HoW usually only does 1 wound, so if that wound kills the challengee then there are no wounds to apply to the other models in the unit.

With something that could do more than one HoW wound, like a carnifex, you would apply the remaining wounds to the unit.

since "for the purposes of Outside Forces" also means if you kill the guy you are still considered beeing[sic] in a challenge.

This is not correct, like at all.

Outside Forces has specific instructions about the challenge and its ongoing effects. For the purposes of wound allocation to the model that was in the challenge is the only purpose that the model is still considered to be in a challenge.

He is not in a challenge in regards to his own attacks.

to me it sounds like a two-way-scenario. so if you kill your challenger before you could do all attacks, you still use the dead guys stats to determine hit and wound rolls.

No you do not as you are no longer in a challenge for purposes of weapon skill, only for purposes of outside forces.

So after going over the rules and reading the threads, there are 3 things that CAN happen.

1) The model kills his opponent using HoW, but still has to use the challengers WS/T even after he dies, which then allocates wounds to the now non-existent challenger first, which then pushes all the wounds onto the unit.

2) The model kills his opponent using HoW. He then gets to swing against the unit when his initiative step rolls around provided he is still Engaged, since he doesn't get to pile-in.

3) The model kills his opponent and since there is no model left in the challenge, he doesn't get to swing at all.

All three situations are the reason we're here because we don't have any rules for what happens when a challenger kills his opponent before he gets to swing (HoW/MSS) Have I got it right so far?

We already know I support #1, because the rule says 'always' which is the only thing that could cover a dead model. No it doesn't make any sense, but it's the only rule we got to go on. To me it works for now since no one seems to get overly screwed.

Situation #2, after reading the bits that I had missed makes the most sense. I think this is the best solution and might be adopted as a good 'house rule'. I didn't even think about the whole 'engaged' thing until reading this. My main army is I2, so it's not likely that my IC would be unengaged, so have never even seen that it's possible.

Situation #3 doesn't work anymore. It was something that existed in the last edition. The model in the challenge MUST fight at his initiative step, provided he is still engaged after the Pile-in step per the assault rules. He doesn't get to pile-in, but other models in his unit can re-engage him if for some reason he is out.

It is possible though, like the HoW example, if the model had an unwieldy weapon, to easily become unengaged, since the rest of the unit can potentially kill enough models before he gets to swing. Rarely, an issue since if this happens you're either already so far ahead in kill count to not need the security, or the pile-in from the other guys will be sufficient to re-engage him.

Did I miss anything?

I think the main reason I'm against #3, is that it's a pretty lame excuse to have a Khorne Lord on a bike solo charge with the 'Axe of Blind Fury' (if that's still a thing), have the challenge issued by some cultist or conscript character, which will most likely die to HoW, preventing the Axe from murdering the unit which is why he charged them in the first place.

If that's the case, then do I have to roll my attacks separately?

Say I'm fighting a WS6 captain who's in a squad of WS4 marines.

If I have 4 attacks, I'm hitting the captain on a 4+. Say I roll 4, 3, 3, 3. That's only one hit, but that causes instant death, so it kills him.

But attacks against the rest of the squad would HIT on 3's. So should I roll to hit, then roll to wound, with each of my attacks to see how they'll carry over?

I think you use the WS of the challenger for the duration of the fight, otherwise you have to break the rules of rolling all your hit rolls first, then rolling wound rolls.

I suppose if the hammer of wrath kills him, it's easier to justify rolling against his squad's WS

Since all 4 of the attacks go off on the same init., you have to use the captains WS so the 3's would miss.

If the captain died from a hammer of wrath, then you would be swinging againgst the squad on your initiative.

 Spellbound wrote:
I suppose if the hammer of wrath kills him, it's easier to justify rolling against his squad's WS

I agree, it's just a matter of whether the always part covers his death or not.

edit. .

 Akar wrote:
So after going over the rules and reading the threads, there are 3 things that CAN happen.

1) The model kills his opponent using HoW, but still has to use the challengers WS/T even after he dies, which then allocates wounds to the now non-existent challenger first, which then pushes all the wounds onto the unit.

2) The model kills his opponent using HoW. He then gets to swing against the unit when his initiative step rolls around provided he is still Engaged, since he doesn't get to pile-in.

3) The model kills his opponent and since there is no model left in the challenge, he doesn't get to swing at all.

#2 is the only correct option as per the RAW.

I think it's an inherent problem with the HoW ruling saying it happens at initiative step 10. It should happen BEFORE any initiative steps to make this simpler, but that's aside from the point.

I would say the correct way is to count the model as "dead" for the purposes of initiative step, then resolve PF hits against the model's toughness, spilling all the wounds over to the squad.

It's a weird thing, but this is how I feel it should be run. HoW shouldn't be a penalty, which it would be in this case. The wording definitely needs to be change to where HoW is resolved before challenges are declared.