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In the 6th edition book, ruins had 4 pages of rules. Those pages are not found in the 7th edition book

In the 6th ed book, in relation to assaults in ruins, the rules said the fallowing:

"In some cases, the ruin might genuinely be unstable or uneven, or the the space could be very limited on a particular level, making it impossible to move charging models into base contact with the unit they wish to charge. When this happens, it is perfectly acceptable to place models as close to their foe as possible, including the level below or above, providing that you make clear to your opponent which of your models are in base contact with his models. We find that directly below or above works well, representing hem charging up or down a flight of stairs."


So, using the example of a unit entirely occupying an upper floor of a ruin, it would seem impossible to charge them as there is not enough room for at least one of the models in the charging unit to make base to base contact with the unit above. Discuss.

 Crablezworth wrote:
When this happens, it is perfectly acceptable to place models as close to their foe as possible, including the level below or above, providing that you make clear to your opponent which of your models are in base contact with his models.

Not much to discuss, given that they directly address your question in part of what you quoted.

Did you even read the post? That's from the 6th edition book... the whole point of the thread is that that rule is GONE.

ooops. my bad. Guess you're right.

It is not impossible.

"Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as somebody nudges the table, leaving your beautifully painted miniature damaged or even broken. In cases like this, we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its ‘actual’ location. If, later on, your enemy is considering shooting at the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so he can check line of sight." (The Movement Phase chapter, Wobbly Model Syndrome section).

"MOVING THROUGH TERRAIN
As part of their move, models can move through, up or over any terrain they encounter,
unless the terrain is noted as being impassable.
Models can also use their move to ‘climb up’ terrain, as long as the model is able to finish
the move on a location where it can be stood."


The rule you're referencing assumes the model in question can at least be placed there tenuously (it's likely to fall from a table bumb). It doesn't let you pretend models can hover in mid air.




though it is allowed to charge an enemy unit it is impossible for it to harm.

and it can be stood on a level of a ruin if 0.000001 cm of its base can fit there. Then you invoke WMS.

If by stood you mean fall over






stand


/stand/


verb

verb: stand; 3rd person present: stands; past tense: stood; past participle: stood; gerund or present participle: standing



1. have or maintain an upright position, supported by one's feet.

Some models do not have feet, so that definition is not valid.

This is the same WMS discussion you have been having since 5th, nothing has really changed.

You're the one bringing it into the discussion chief

Well the suggestion from 6th was a very good suggestion, and would still apply.

7th edition has rules on how to measure the charge, and what you do about it. The "initial charger" has to be in base contact, however you want to go about it... Move on from there with the WMS rules.



Great picture, but unless you are charging anything up on those trees, you can't make it there yourself.

If you can fit 1 enemy model, then you can fit 1 of yours, simple way to see it....

Unfortunately for someone playing assault nids, this seems to mean (though unsportsmanlike and very RAW) that certain units are neigh untouchable in seventh edition, as opposed to the more lenient sixth.

This makes it basically impossible to attack models on ruins with MCs and Walkers. :/

I had that problem this week playing CSM&IK vs GK:
Something huge cometh, let's climb on this ledge to be in more convenient punching height.
Picture posed to illustrate the silliness:

 Stephanius wrote:
This makes it basically impossible to attack models on ruins with MCs and Walkers. :/

I had that problem this week playing CSM&IK vs GK:
Something huge cometh, let's climb on this ledge to be in more convenient punching height.
Picture posed to illustrate the silliness:

Spoiler:

It actually looks quite epic

The funny part is that the dreadnought wasn't permitted on the upper level of the ruins in sixth edition. I cannot find a restriction on who can climb up a ruin in 7th, even though both the terrain and the model are Citadel (tm)!

 Stephanius wrote:
The funny part is that the dreadnought wasn't permitted on the upper level of the ruins in sixth edition. I cannot find a restriction on who can climb up a ruin in 7th, even though both the terrain and the model are Citadel (tm)!

There is no more restriction, they threw out like 4 pages of ruin rules.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:
The funny part is that the dreadnought wasn't permitted on the upper level of the ruins in sixth edition. I cannot find a restriction on who can climb up a ruin in 7th, even though both the terrain and the model are Citadel (tm)!

There is no more restriction, they threw out like 4 pages of ruin rules.

Yes, that was my fear. Hilarious abuse potential, making units charge-proof.

Or tank shocking up into a ruin...sigh

I still don't see how the charge is denied?

The assault rules are clear that you measure B2B and then make it into CC...

Gutting the ruin rules in addition to all the different terrain rules is one of the things that makes the 7th Edition book look half-assed and rushed, IMO.

I love that the rules for different terrain is literally I think one page. Then they basically say "OH! Here are special rules for all the terrain you can buy in our store. If you're not using this stuff, well too bad."

Like they remove the entire concept of Area Terrain... but then they add it in as a special rule for the Citadel Woods. Give me a freaking break.

I loathe the terrain rules for 7th. It took our group just one game to basically house-rule "Area Terrain" back into the game for 90% of the home-made terrain that we play with. We still miss the "Random Terrain" table for woods, but we haven't gone so far as to add that back in yet.

Murrdox,
Terrain Rules are designed to be 'modular,' allowing much more flexibility in the types of terrain that can be produced in the future. What little we have seen in 7th Edition may lack luster, but keep in mind they exist to be more or less "examples" of Terrain and the rules they may have. They are not a complete list of all Terrain available, nor do they even list every Rule we might see linked to a piece of Terrain. I personally like the system as it allows us more control over the battlefield, better then being dictated that everything has to fir into X or Y.

 DeathReaper wrote:
i some models do not have feet, so that definition is not valid.

This is the same WMS discussion you have been having since 5th, nothing has really changed.

name one basic infantry unit without something to stand on.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I still don't see how the charge is denied?

The assault rules are clear that you measure B2B and then make it into CC...

Because no model was able to make it into base to base contact. 5the edition and 6th edition had rules for what to do if that occurred, rules that are no longer in the book.

Indeed, but what rule actually STOPs you from being in base contact after you have rolled higher than the distance between the bases?

The rules say that you measure the distance between the bases.
The rules say you make it to Base to base if you roll high enough.
Now why would NOT be in base contact? Please show me the rule that says so?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Indeed, but what rule actually STOPs you from being in base contact after you have rolled higher than the distance between the bases?

The rules say that you measure the distance between the bases.
The rules say you make it to Base to base if you roll high enough.
Now why would NOT be in base contact? Please show me the rule that says so?

Because the unit you wish to assault occupies the entire ruin floor above your unit, there's no room to place one of your models in base contact with theirs. If no model makes it into base contact, the assault didn't happen. It doesn't always come up, often with 28mm base models there's enough room for at least one of the models in the charging unit to get up, however, as model size increases, the issue becomes more and more common ie monstrous creatures and other large models. When models move vertically, they can still only be placed where they can be stood.

Oh i understand how the point is made. But it's breaking rules:

You have declared a charge on the unit up top.
They are not completely surrounded by Impassable terrain or anything, so you are eligible to charge.

Upon the assault phase, you declare a charge on them.
As long as you Roll what you need, the initial charging model (regardless of the other guys) MUST be in base contact with its target.

Simple rules: they say you are in Base contact, so you must be in base contact, regardless of whether you can fit or not.

You don't even need to show me a picture, or situation or anything. The rules are followed step by step with the last step "being in base contact".

If somehow the initial charger "can't be placed in B2B", then you have broken the rules for the assault phase.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Upon the assault phase, you declare a charge on them.
As long as you Roll what you need, the initial charging model (regardless of the other guys) MUST be in base contact with its target..

It's not just about the distance, though. You need to be able to legally place the model in base contact.

Unless you allow WMS to apply to the situation (and opinions are somewhat divided on that, as shown in this thread) if the charge target is occupying the entire level there is no way to legally place the model in base contact.

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Upon the assault phase, you declare a charge on them.
As long as you Roll what you need, the initial charging model (regardless of the other guys) MUST be in base contact with its target..

It's not just about the distance, though. You need to be able to legally place the model in base contact.

Unless you allow WMS to apply to the situation (and opinions are somewhat divided on that, as shown in this thread) if the charge target is occupying the entire level there is no way to legally place the model in base contact.

I will quote the rules if i have remembered them correctly. But the "move initial charger" paragraph tells you to put him in base contact, what rule denies you this? (Quotes here would help)

Ultimately, yes WMS will come in when the situation of "In B2B but can't fit him" comes up, but before that, there is explicit wording forcing him to be in B2B.

ED: Once i get my book

 BlackTalos wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Upon the assault phase, you declare a charge on them.
As long as you Roll what you need, the initial charging model (regardless of the other guys) MUST be in base contact with its target..

It's not just about the distance, though. You need to be able to legally place the model in base contact.

Unless you allow WMS to apply to the situation (and opinions are somewhat divided on that, as shown in this thread) if the charge target is occupying the entire level there is no way to legally place the model in base contact.

I will quote the rules if i have remembered them correctly. But the "move initial charger" paragraph tells you to put him in base contact, what rule denies you this? (Quotes here would help)

Ultimately, yes WMS will come in when the situation of "In B2B but can't fit him" comes up, but before that, there is explicit wording forcing him to be in B2B.

ED: Once i get my book

"MOVING THROUGH TERRAIN
As part of their move, models can move through, up or over any terrain they encounter,
unless the terrain is noted as being impassable.
Models can also use their move to ‘climb up’ terrain, as long as the model is able to finish
the move on a location where it can be stood."

And the problem is that in the instance of a floor full of enemy models, there is physically no place to stand the model and any other charging models.

WMS doesn't apply because WMS is for models that are difficult to place not impossible.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
i some models do not have feet, so that definition is not valid.

This is the same WMS discussion you have been having since 5th, nothing has really changed.

name one basic infantry unit without something to stand on.

Gun /shield drones come to mind.

 Crablezworth wrote:
WMS doesn't apply because WMS is for models that are difficult to place not impossible.

This was incorrect last edition and it is still incorrect in 7th.