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This has been something that I have been wondering for a little bit. Can lists be made to be fluffy, ie playing how that army is portrayed in the fluff without unit spam and still be relatively competitive or are these two concepts polar opposites? Do we sacrifice strategy and tactics for a story line based army, screw how the fluff portrays them and go for a stream lined tournament list or is there a way to marry the two without sacrificing much?

Yes, they can. White scars bikelists are a classic example of this.

Depends on the codex. In general though, the "no spam" limitation prevents many lists from achieving the goal, if only due to limited number of units.

For example, a mono-Tzeentch Daemon list consisting of Fateweaver. a Lord of Change, 6xHorrors, 3xScreamers and a Flamer unit or two would be very competitive, and also very fluffy. But it would also fall under the purview of unit spam.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, they can. White scars bikelists are a classic example of this.

Okay, White Scars can do it but can every codex do it?

Yes they can be with the Astra Militarium and their Forgeworld counterparts. For example my Elysians fluff is based around an "Air Assault" company and I have every squad with a dedicated Valkyrie to carry them around. Almost every opponent would have a difficult time handling over x10 flyers in a 2000pt game and though the list is no invincible it is definitely competitive.

What is unit spam?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Depends on the codex. In general though, the "no spam" limitation prevents many lists from achieving the goal, if only due to limited number of units.

For example, a mono-Tzeentch Daemon list consisting of Fateweaver. a Lord of Change, 6xHorrors, 3xScreamers and a Flamer unit or two would be very competitive, and also very fluffy. But it would also fall under the purview of unit spam.

This. Spam is not the opposite of fluffy.

I don't think that anyone who saw my khorne lord+MoK termies+HUGE PILE OF BERZERKERS army would necessarily call it unfluffy, even though, excluding one model, there are only two different units. Further exclude a single unit, and it's literally one unit spammed over and over again, but what's unfluffy about a red tide?

Anyways, I think the OP needs to do a better job at more specifically defining "competitive" and "fluffy". The terms as-is are so vague it's nearly impossible to have a conversation about them.

I will say that, assuming reasonable proficiency and a lack of wonky luck, it is possible to win games with most fluffy lists against anything up to, but excluding top-power lists. Of course, my berzerker tide could probably beat a top-power list, it would just require me to be a bit lucky, or the power-list player to be a newbie.

I've found that, once again, assuming basic proficiency, there isn't actually THAT much difference in power level between most lists. At least, not so much that decent die rolling by one player can't seriously impact their ability to win. Reality is far, far, FAR away from the idea that there are a handful of lists and everything else is unplayable garbage. That idea only works if 40k is a no-skill non-strategy game, or if it's outcome weren't largely determined by dice.

As such, I'd say to the general, vague point of the thread that yes, assuming that you have a reasonably strong command of how to play the game, and that you've built your list to follow the basic fundamentals of list building, then if that list is also fluffy, then you can be both fluffy and win games.

 gmaleron wrote:
Yes they can be with the Astra Militarium and their Forgeworld counterparts. For example my Elysians fluff is based around an "Air Assault" company and I have every squad with a dedicated Valkyrie to carry them around. Almost every opponent would have a difficult time handling over x10 flyers in a 2000pt game and though the list is no invincible it is definitely competitive.

I agree. Elysians are win big/lose big. My opponents have commented that it's the only time that they've seen heavy bolter door guns on Valkyries.

All Nid lists are fluffy by design. It's the hive mind don't you know ....

Nope, they are mutually exclusive. There are typically a minimum of 'the best' units to use in any given codex so making a list as competitive as possible generally means including multiple copies of those units.

That said, a lot depends on what you consider 'fluffy', in your case you seem to indicate multiple identical units is not.

Most mono-codex lists are fluffy, the only issue comes with silly allies, e.g. The Baron with jetbike seercouncil, Taudar and Inquisitors allied with everything.

The hardest restriction for me is unit sizes with Chaos armies. I would never run my Slaaesh Marines in anything other than units of 6, which is far from optimal.

Having said that, it is possible to justify pretty much anything with a bit of thought. For example I read a 40k book where an Inquisitor had gone over to the side of the Tau. If you can come up with a decent backstory, then for me anything goes.

I have found my Iyanden list is very competitive against most SM, AM and Tau armies. High toughness lots of low AP shots. Good armor saves, solid psychic presence and mobile with the wave serpents. It does really well at 2k and higher.

However Dark Elder, Tyranids and orks wreck me. The DE and Nids have lots of poison. The Nids and orks generally have too many bodies for me to deal with as well.

Can all lists be fluffy and competitive? Probably not. Also certain armies makes it easier to be fluffy and competitive. Elder, SM and AM come to mind.

The moment that you optimize for competitivr options you are no longer fluffy.

Like many have said fluffy and competitive are not mutually exclusive. Some examples:

White scars
Mech Eldar
Iyanden
Mono-Tzeentch

Also, fluffy is very subjective. Technically, any Tau and Tyranid list could be considered fluffy as they are known for radical adaptations to deal with specific threats. Fluffy is really just a state of mind.

Drop pod lists are pretty fluffy for most marine chapters, and are very competitive in 7th.

Flying Bakery is fluffy, although in fluff the Nightscythe to Doomscythe ratio seems to be lower than in-game.

When I was younger it would of pained me to say this but fluff is what you make of it. See if I wanted to I could run an all bike Ultramarine army and be fluffy. I could spam anything I want from any codex and be fluffy. All you need is a low amount of imagination to hash out a reason for the army and bam you have a fluffy army. Or you know its because you said so...that can make something fluffy too.

My Necron army has zero theme to it. I own a minimum of one of each choice in the codex. My reasoning for it is that it is all part of the Overlords personal armory (to include the warriors, immortals..etc.) There you go. So now any army combination I field is simply the Overlord choosing from his stuff the optimal choices to win the battle. And why wouldn't an Overlord do that? Why wouldn't a Tau Commander or Space Marine Captain or Farseer bring the most power force they have at their disposal?

Even allies work too. Daemons and Tyranids, looks stupid, sounds stupid yet is fluffy. All you have to say is this is a attacking hive fleet and the daemons are pulling one of those "just as planned" scenarios.

If your opponent gets butthurt over how you look at your army and fluff that really is on them. They were going to find a reason to be hurt one way or another. That being said fluff reasoning for a power list doesn't mean you don't have to communicate with your opponent on just what style of game you two want to play.

I seeing a lot of mixed answers here but yes when I said competitive, I meant power-lists, lists designed specifically to win tournaments. Where you are playing mathhammer as you work out your army probably more than thinking of the fluff reasons behind it.

Ah, well, it's still possible.

Not everybody is of an equal level of skill, and the more skilled you and your collective pool gets, the more the results of games are determined by luck anyways, even if you do have somewhat of a "skill" disadvantage with a weaker list.

Plus, we're talking about odds to win a game, here. A stronger list has a higher chance to beat a weaker list, but that doesn't mean the stronger list wins every game - it just means that it tends to win more in aggregate over time.

Absolutely , I play Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines, it's very very very very very ( That's FIVE Verys! Count them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 . Ah ha ha ha ha) it's very fluffy and competitive.

Screamer-Star was very fluffy (mono tzeentch) and was one of the most competitive lists out there

Would you say that it is fluffy wuffy though?

Hollismason wrote:
Would you say that it is fluffy wuffy though?

Yes since its mono tzeentch

How many additional fluffies though , that's the real question everyone wants to know.

IMO
Necrons can easily even with their flyer spam and wraithwings
pretty much every nid list
a lot of orks list can be
Sisters can (but if you want fluffy AND competitive you drop a lot of the codex)


I'd say it depends more on the player making the list what goes through their mind when they make it are they thinking of the fluff and what makes "since" while list making or are they thinking of how they can win more? And one person's view on fluff might not be another's because of w/e reason

Hmm...well here is another question, outside of a Campaign setting, how often do you ask in a pick up game or in an actual tournament do you ask your opponent whether they have a fluffy list and what is the reason behind everything or do you just play reserving your judgments for what you see on the table?

For a while, Space Wolves drop pod lists were fluffy and competitive.

You could argue that every tyranid, Ork, and Necron list is fluffy to a degree.

I do not understand why so many people try to write a CSM "Semi" competitive list. Thats trying to say, I am not competitive since I am fluffy but I am trying to win.

Chaos Space Marines have extreme difficulty being competitive. It is just amusing for me to see, "Semi-competitive" as an excuse to not run 3 helturkey, 9 oblitz, 100 plague zombies.

Although you can make a pure nurgle, khorne, slaanesh, and tzeentch list for Chaos space marines. I dont think Iron Warrior, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and several other legions can be made easily. Huron and Ahriman and Cypher gets Master of Deception but do not belong to Alpha Legion. CSM can not get Raptors or Warp Talons as troops so Nightlords forgo their fast attack options filling it up with weak Raptors and Warp Talons. Iron Warriors are siege warfare masters not dino bot spam. So many list would throw in helbrutes, forgefiends, heldrakes and call it Iron Warrior. When I read, "Storm of Iron" it featured the classic Chosen who infiltrated Honsou and his squad included a lascannon, the enraged Defiler, the swift vindicators, the khorne berserkers, and the single infiltrating obliterator.

The battle cannon on the Defiler is the siege weapon with a range of 72" not the short range of 36" or 48" of a reaper autocannnon or ectoplasma cannon.

 Filch wrote:
I do not understand why so many people try to write a CSM "Semi" competitive list. Thats trying to say, I am not competitive since I am fluffy but I am trying to win.

Chaos Space Marines have extreme difficulty being competitive. It is just amusing for me to see, "Semi-competitive" as an excuse to not run 3 helturkey, 9 oblitz, 100 plague zombies.

Although you can make a pure nurgle, khorne, slaanesh, and tzeentch list for Chaos space marines. I dont think Iron Warrior, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and several other legions can be made easily. Huron and Ahriman and Cypher gets Master of Deception but do not belong to Alpha Legion. CSM can not get Raptors or Warp Talons as troops so Nightlords forgo their fast attack options filling it up with weak Raptors and Warp Talons. Iron Warriors are siege warfare masters not dino bot spam. So many list would throw in helbrutes, forgefiends, heldrakes and call it Iron Warrior. When I read, "Storm of Iron" it featured the classic Chosen who infiltrated Honsou and his squad included a lascannon, the enraged Defiler, the swift vindicators, the khorne berserkers, and the single infiltrating obliterator.

The battle cannon on the Defiler is the siege weapon with a range of 72" not the short range of 36" or 48" of a reaper autocannnon or ectoplasma cannon.

Honestly, I think CSM has a huge disparity between how they are portrayed on the tabletop and then how they are portrayed in the fluff. Honestly, I wouldn't even put the Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Iron Warriors even in the same codex as the other ACTUAL Chaos Legions. All three of those Legions show constantly how much they hate the Imperium but also hate Chaos, I label them more along the lines of Renegade Legions more than Chaos Legions. The Alpha Legion uses Chaos Cults but aren't a force of Chaos, using Chaos forces is just another tool in their espionage bag of tricks. Perturabo was tricked into being a Daemon Prince but other than that, the Iron Warriors stay far away from Chaos seeing them as crazy zealots. The same goes for the Night Lords. I think there should be a separate Codex for these kinds of Space Marines that would a Renegade Marine Codex and detail Legions/Chapters that don't fit into the regular Codex Astartes or Chaos Space Marine archetype. Then have specialized units for each of the Legions that go with the flavor of that army because the Iron Warriors would never use the warp spawn machines of Chaos.

in 5th, before the rules sprawl, yes. Now in the post escalation/ allies world of 40k, it is much more difficult to be competitive* and still be fluffy.

Competitive is subjective. When I say "competitive" i am referring to tournament level competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Most mono-codex lists are fluffy, the only issue comes with silly allies, e.g. The Baron with jetbike seercouncil, Taudar and Inquisitors allied with everything.

The hardest restriction for me is unit sizes with Chaos armies. I would never run my Slaaesh Marines in anything other than units of 6, which is far from optimal.

Having said that, it is possible to justify pretty much anything with a bit of thought. For example I read a 40k book where an Inquisitor had gone over to the side of the Tau. If you can come up with a decent backstory, then for me anything goes.

this is pretty good