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I keep waiting for an excuse to pledge and I just don't see it. Can someone explain how the Adventure Journal isn't full of info that ought to be in the retail box anyway? How is this a stretch goal? (I don't mean to dampen everyone's enthusiasm; maybe I'm kickstarted out.)

Hrm had a video where Ronnie mentioned the big undead worm thing, but I guess it didn't work.

The dungeon journal includes a lot of extra scenarios that aren't going to be in the retail box, like those that belong to KS exclusive characters and the like. There will certainly be some difference.

Creator Mantic Games less than a minute ago

@ GrimDork - Scenarios for your Kickstarter exclusive, The DKH classic scenarios, short story - these are all in the Journal.

Adventurer's companion in the retail box is what's being upgraded though! The goal is to develop some more fluff and rules - turn it into something more akin to Warhammer Quest's beast of a roleplay manual. And that costs money and time.

http://users.telenet.be/WHQ_TheHouse/Docs/WHQ%20-%20Roleplay%20Book%20v1.01.pdf

Yeah I get it, I just don't believe that they weren't going to do this anyway.

I think this KS has been far slicker than Mantic's previous efforts, a well managed and paced campaign that is probably going to end slightly above their projections - remember it was always intended as a 'small' KS - and as such should be considered a success. But personally I find the whole product incredibly sterile and unexciting, particularly the sculpts, and I'm far from convinced the (very good) DKH two player rules are an ideal base to build a five player dungeon crawler on.

I think I'm only going to pledge for a single expansion, if at all - that gets me a nice variety pack of figures and few useful cards and tiles delivered for a pocket money price ($25/£15), and judging by the greenskin artwork in the last update one or two stretch goal heroes might end up in each expansion too. What's holding me back from even that is the choice between overdone greenskins (only the mawbeasts and hopefully new orcling sculpts appeal) or the demons of Generica..

It somehow feels like there should be more expansions. I can (possibly) see myself staying in for the EB and just adding the scenario packs in via PM. I don't see anything else interesting here. I dunno. I'm pretty underwhelmed. I'm not even excited by the models, being BG plastic, I can appreciate them, but I can also take or leave them, and paying Mantic of all people for resin exclusives, sight unseen seems like a fool's errand.

I alternately might drop the EB down to $1 if I need the money for other stuff and see how the game is looking in the PM in 8 months when it's close to shipping. After all, $100 or $150 is an awful lot to plunk down this far in advance for a game you hope might be good fun to play. Especially when nothing about it actually excites you.

Hmm, glad to see it confirmed that this 'advanced' style stuff is actually going to be included! Although as others have said it was always going to be the intent.

Like the sounds of it though, and if a few extra $10k will pay Jake Thornton's overtime for a few months to write these rules, then so be it!

I assume the hardback collectors book is just a nicer version of the softback version already present, or do you get extras with it?

 Fugazi wrote:
I keep waiting for an excuse to pledge and I just don't see it. Can someone explain how the Adventure Journal isn't full of info that ought to be in the retail box anyway? How is this a stretch goal? (I don't mean to dampen everyone's enthusiasm; maybe I'm kickstarted out.)

I've highlighted a bit of your text there Fugazi. I do think this is becoming more and more of a thing. The first few 'big' KS'es on Dakka were absolute roller coaster-rides of threads (Sedition Wars, Zombicide etc.) but I do wonder if the novelty and excitement is starting to wear off a little. Now, there just seems to be the cold, hard reality of miniatures per dollar and resin/plastic type

 Fugazi wrote:
I keep waiting for an excuse to pledge and I just don't see it. Can someone explain how the Adventure Journal isn't full of info that ought to be in the retail box anyway? How is this a stretch goal? (I don't mean to dampen everyone's enthusiasm; maybe I'm kickstarted out.)

The Adventure Journal is the stuff they talked about a lot pre-KS, and is the only reason I'm here at all. It's certainly the only decent way to justify the $100 KS asking price.


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 scarletsquig wrote:
There's always a pledging spike whenever a new expansion gets added, if they're able to release another two expansions that will get the average pledge up to around $200 (the usual average is $225 or so).
Still think they missed a trick by not doing hard plastic dungeon builder sprues in addition to the card, would be very cool to have some nicely painted 3d textured surfaces to game on rather than card tiles which will warp eventually.
At least Dwarven Forge backers will have something to be happy about since the game is completely compatible with those tiles.
Agree that something big like Reaper's $10 dragons would really help at this point. Mars Attacks had some really nice huge pieces like the bugs and DKQ needs more girbblies.

Plastic floor tiles aren't really worth the cost of creation for something that wants to be a mass market wargame and step into the shoes of something like Heroquest - and also doesn't have the wiser appeal of something like ruined walls or spaceman walls. I get it that you'd really like them yourself, but they clearly wouldn't be worth the extra cost for Mantic.

Agreed on the embiggened models. The D&D games' large monsters have a "ok, it's serious time now" feel to them when they're plonked down on the table. This game has lots of minions, a few "ogres" and not much else. The end bosses are normal size.

I think they're missing a trick by not including many, many more monster profiles in the Adventurer's Journal, and instead sticking only to their own fairly bland sets of Undead and Orc profiles when people really want Dragons and Hydras. Plus the other army list profiles.

WOW.

So I just looked at that PDF for Warhammer Quest. I've never actually seen it.

WOW.

That is a hell of a lot of game in there.

If Mantic can match that, I think I'm set.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Fugazi wrote:
I keep waiting for an excuse to pledge and I just don't see it. Can someone explain how the Adventure Journal isn't full of info that ought to be in the retail box anyway? How is this a stretch goal? (I don't mean to dampen everyone's enthusiasm; maybe I'm kickstarted out.)

The Adventure Journal is the stuff they talked about a lot pre-KS, and is the only reason I'm here at all. It's certainly the only decent way to justify the $100 KS asking price.

I'm wondering if Mantic have shot themselves in the foot with some of their previous KS, as this one still seems like a really good deal to me, even if it ended right now. I mean, how many miniatures and stuff do you expect for $100? This one perhaps won't risk me being buried alive when the box of miniatures are delivered to my door, in the way that a couple of the previous ones have, but it still seems like a good deal especially when you factor in the free P&P.

Of course it helps the exchange rate is so good this way around (think it works out about £60 UK monies) - Azazelx, I'm sure it should be even more pronounced for you (isn't that about the price of a box of 40k terminators in Aus?!)

 Azazelx wrote:
I dunno. I'm pretty underwhelmed.

I am too, but I know that's because my level of whelm is directly related to my knowledge of the advanced rules, which at present is directly proportional to my knowledge of particle physics.

Read the quirkworthy blog updates, that's as much information as we're likely to get. Sounds fairly nuanced for a boardgame, bordering on RPG that autoincludes minis. But the money isn't in hand, the development hasn't happened yet and the rules simply don't exist yet.

I'm willing to buy the rules on faith, and if I turn around and get burned by something simpler than I had hoped for there will still be a fair amount of plastic goodies to work through, though I"ll be much much more wary of the fantasy skirmish if that ever comes to exist and hits kickstarter.

There seem to be an awful lot of tiles too, I realize we probably aren't going to hit a dollar per mini unless we fund a couple more expansions before it's over (in the base pledge I mean), or they just start throwing goodies in there... but there's more to it than just models and it's things that I don't have yet.

For people who already have a similar board game, I can understand the lack of whelm.

 Pacific wrote:

I'm wondering if Mantic have shot themselves in the foot with some of their previous KS, as this one still seems like a really good deal to me, even if it ended right now. I mean, how many miniatures and stuff do you expect for $100? This one perhaps won't risk me being buried alive when the box of miniatures are delivered to my door, in the way that a couple of the previous ones have, but it still seems like a good deal especially when you factor in the free P&P.

P&P isn't free for me.
But here's the rub:

These are 1-piece plastic boardgame figures in coloured plastic. I don't value those anywhere nearly as highly as I do proper miniatures.
I don't value Mantic's models as especially worthwhile in terms of asking price, with the exception of the undead. I find the vast majority of their sculpts to be sub-par.
The resin masters shown so far for this look good, granted, but Mantic doesn't have a good track record of going from concept to sculpt.
Those skeletons with their tiny-thin limbs are going to warp like a melon-fether and be painful to reset when they are cast in thin, mould-lined, boardgame PVC.

So, given that I'd mostly be pledging for the non-miniatures parts, with the exception of the trolls (that look pretty good) and perhaps the Molochs (if they turn out ok - a gamble to be sure given their track record). So I'm most interested in the rules, tiles, etc.

So in terms of miniatures, the value of this package is quite low indeed. I'm sure they'll be ok to use for a boardgame, but I don't value them highly in the same way that I don't value the Ravenloft figures all that highly, either. Or most of my Bones.

Of course it helps the exchange rate is so good this way around (think it works out about £60 UK monies) - Azazelx, I'm sure it should be even more pronounced for you (isn't that about the price of a box of 40k terminators in Aus?!)

Well, if I were stupid enough to buy GW stuff locally, it might be. But I only cherry-pick specific GW proiducts locally as I need them, and get anything else with a big discount from US-RRP

I have to admit I am very much over large amount of miniatures because I have to paint them which will probably never happen with numbers this larger. Not to mention that mantic doesn't always deliver on quality in their kickstarters even if their rules are generally very good.

A warning: be sure to use gaming specific search terms when looking for alternative dungeon furnishings, especially at work.

Hahahahaa

Yeah Dungeon Sagas itself sounds like a pretty heavy handed BDSM book series come to think of it...

Whips and chains resin expansion pack!!

And a panting leather-daddy named "Bear" as a KS exclusive hero.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Whips and chains resin expansion pack!!

And a panting leather-daddy named "Bear" as a KS exclusive hero.

Is that a veiled Brian Blessed reference?

Does the game end when you say your safe word?

I have no idea who Brian Blessed is. So no. Although it is amusing that my name is Brian.

This guy

Please stay on topic - thanks!

 scarletsquig wrote:
There are currently 12 KS exclusive minis which I think is a little bit nuts for any campaign, why fund all that and never release it? Going to have to pass on getting them all at some point, especially at $8 a pop.. Reaper Bones does exist after all. I do find the presence of exclusives to be a draw but after a certain point it has the opposite effect if the Ks just turns into one huge pile of models that are never going to see retail release.

No other Mantic KS has had this many exclusives.. or exclusive rulebooks... or this much resin.

I concur - I hate KS exclusives. Luckily here substitute mini's aren't a problem, indeed I doubt I will use any of the models in the box. But yes if there was anything significantly unique about the exclusives I would drop the game as I hate the concept and I have no desire to introduce games to friends they can't get complete copies of.


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 rosafari wrote:
But personally I find the whole product incredibly sterile and unexciting, particularly the sculpts, and I'm far from convinced the (very good) DKH two player rules are an ideal base to build a five player dungeon crawler on.

Snap. Like a burning pony or whatever my cool daughter says these days.




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If I were going wild on this campaign?

95 EB, 25 exp, 25 exp. Then Dungeon raiders,30, for the mincer (for a fun scenario), war trombone and wiz (both for blood bowl sideline).

175. I guess I could go for the acrylic counters, despite Mantics awful record there. 15.

Still $10 short though... Some resin counters? I already have plastic piles of bones from my Mantic undead.

I'm in agreements about the exclusives not being appealing. Especially exclusive rules and scenarios. I don't mind if you want to alternative versions of a model or something like that but it's frustrating to see people who don't kickstart a game unable to have the full experience.

Also a lack of retail release often means those characters are going to be poorly supported within the actual rules.

I wonder if Mantic upped the KS exclusives for Dungeon Sagas because Dreadball Xtreme seemed to have the fewest KS exclusives yet, and it didn't end well?

 Vermonter wrote:
I wonder if Mantic upped the KS exclusives for Dungeon Sagas because Dreadball Xtreme seemed to have the fewest KS exclusives yet, and it didn't end well?

What didn't go well about DBX? $625K+ and the development of 12 teams is pretty good for a sequel.

 Yonan wrote:

 Vermonter wrote:
I wonder if Mantic upped the KS exclusives for Dungeon Sagas because Dreadball Xtreme seemed to have the fewest KS exclusives yet, and it didn't end well?

What didn't go well about DBX? $625K+ and the development of 12 teams is pretty good for a sequel.

Zero last day craziness, replaced by a lot of backsliding at the end. There were other factors besides the lack of many exclusives (Frenzy was a huge mistake), but it was Mantic's first KS to go out with a whimper rather than a bang. I feel very secure saying "it didn't end well."

The problem is Vermonter, if you say that most people have that image of the Japanese guy walking up the stairs, with his wife around the corner in bed with someone else, and a load of knives and swords on display on the bedroom wall.. (to use an internet reference..)

I quite like some of the new exclusives - the 'kroot-'like Druid guy and the dwarven engineer are pretty nice.

Also, there has not been a single news item for HQ25 during the entirety of this Kickstarter campaign, which is making me nervous and my left-mouse button hover over the increased pledge that much more likely for this one..

 scarletsquig wrote:
There's always a pledging spike whenever a new expansion gets added, if they're able to release another two expansions that will get the average pledge up to around $200 (the usual average is $225 or so).

Just to reiterate a point I missed up above.

There's 3 days to go. It's incredibly unlikely that they're going to be able to release two more expansions and fill each one of them out properly to the point where they're on a value-parity with the initial two. Let's be blunt here - the Abyssal add-on isn't properly filled out yet and at the rare we're going it will take most of the next 3 days just to do that.

 scarletsquig wrote:
I might drop down to $1 for now, the only reason I'm in this currently is for the exclusives, and it looks like I won't be able to get them all. It's a minimum of $41 extra to the $100 pledge to get all the KS exclusive minis currently, never mind the other exclusive stuff.

There are currently 12 KS exclusive minis which I think is a little bit nuts for any campaign, why fund all that and never release it? Going to have to pass on getting them all at some point, especially at $8 a pop.. Reaper Bones does exist after all. I do find the presence of exclusives to be a draw but after a certain point it has the opposite effect if the Ks just turns into one huge pile of models that are never going to see retail release.

No other Mantic KS has had this many exclusives.. or exclusive rulebooks... or this much resin.

When you're looking at the $1 pledge, and bemoaning the excessive KS exclusives of a Mantic KS, there might just be something wrong with it.