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Because the other thread is focused upon the looks of these flyers (nothing against that, I just prefer discussing a units in-game abilities), I decided to create this thread to focus more on the amazing (imo) rules of both flyers.
Now I haven't put this in tactics because this is aimed at being a general discussion on the flyers that includes potential tactics and not just solely a discussion on tactics.
Please leave discussions as to the aesthetics on the other thread to prevent duplicate debates.

Here is a copy and paste of what I wrote on the other thread to start it off:

"Just talking about the rules a minute - these things are INSANE for their points cost. 
Look at the stormraven: 
-Tl assault cannon or tl lascannon 
-Tl multimelta 
-2 tl hurricane bolters 
-Cap of 12 
230pts 
I personally think the mm is the most scary thing on this as you can place a mm shot pretty much anywhere on the table with it being a flyer. 

Now the new girls (how I would take them): 
Stormwolf: 
-TWO tl multimeltas 
-Tl lascannon 
-Tl hellfrost cannon (24" st6 ap3 blast or 24" st8 ap1 shot) 
-Cap of 16. 
235pts 
So for the price of 6 tl bolters and 5pts you get, 1 extra tl mm, a tl hellfrost cannon and a capacity of 4 more. For the mm alone that is more than worth the points! 

Stormfang: 
-TWO tl mulitmeltas 
-Tl lascannon 
-Hellfrost destructor (24" st6 ap3 large blast or st8 ap1 lance shot) 
-Cap of 6 
255pts 
So for the cost of 6 tl bolters, 25pts and a loss in capacity of 6, you get 1 extra multimelta and a weapon which is amazing against both tanks, infantry (all the way up to 2+ saves) and flyers. 

Not to mention that the stormwolf is a FA choice and the stormfang is a HS choice so you can have 3 of each in 1FOC. They have been hailed as the best AA out there. Scrap that - they are the best anti-superheavy out there!
Lets look at that. An ork stompa with a kff big mek inside with the fixer uppaz, grot riggers and 2 extra super rokkits (what I reckon the most common build will be for the stompa not including burna boys with 3 meks), costs 940pts. For just 20pts more you can have 3 stormwolves and one stormfang fully upgraded like above, giving you EIGHT twin linked multimelta shots, 4 twinlinked lascannon shots, 3 st8 ap1 shots and a st8 ap1 lance shot... That will smash the stompa in one turn of shooting! What else for 1000pts can take out a stompa with huge overkill in ONE turn? Remember - they will be bubblewrapped against normal melta, but nobody can bubblewrap 12" in every direction if they have just spent half their points on a superheavy! 
Best bit is that most superheavies are pants against flyers ao usually just ignore them - they certainly cant do that now. 

Against ANYTHING with an armour value, either form of these are gold and make a raven look like a pyrovore in comparison (and the raven is ok for its points). And for the years that people were annoyed at helldrakes - well now we have another flyer with a st6 ap3 (large blast instead of template). 
And don't forget hover - if your opponent hasn't moved, once it has done one attack run it can simply drop into hover, move 6" and do an about turn, melting all that rear armour. 
They both also have the advantages of the raven being an assault vehicle (risky I know) and having ceremite plating. 

If you are a competative SW player, why WOULDNT you want multiples of each of these?"

On a seperate note has anybody realised that they can both be almost exactly identical just 20pts difference for the Stormfangs frost gun to be a large blast compared to a small blast or to have lance instead?

How would you use these new additions?

The stormraven can transport a dreadnaught as well. While its risky, if using as an assault vehicle, having two separate units can be pretty handy. As a pure gunboat, the SW flyer wins hands down.

Ah yes I forgot about the dread option its been that long since I used it for my DC dreads! That is a plus for the raven. A minor plus but still a plus.
I think the ability to take both a claw and a fang in one allies slot is brilliant, and I may get the boxed set just to be able to take SW as allies for my BA (I want to start an ork army too).
An airforce with one each of these, a raven and a fireraptor would be more interesting than just having multiple ravens and talons I feel.

I am liking the Stormfang as the A-10 I always wanted to field [I might be using an A-10 Model for it] and may never use it as a transport. It looks perfect as a Close Air Support Aircraft.

The Stomwolf though might be a great Wolf Guard Terminator Delivery System. Put Logan, Arjac and 4 other WGT [I even have my Pack figured out] and it should be able get them all in the face of whatever I want.

The lack of "Skies of Furry” letting them kick troops out the back is going to hamper their use to deliver wolves into combat. I’ve never been a fan of reserving assault units. You are looking at a turn 3 assault at best. And then being caught hovering for a turn.

But as flying gunboats both of them look like they should work. They are expensive, but pack a lot of guns. As someone who is only going to see them across the table (I don’t play wolves) I’m OK with them. They don’t strike me as worse then any other flyers. If buying them straight, the gunboat is much better, as I’d fly them empty. But if the transport is available as a DT, it is going to be very tempting.

 Nevelon wrote:
The lack of "Skies of Furry” letting them kick troops out the back is going to hamper their use to deliver wolves into combat. I’ve never been a fan of reserving assault units. You are looking at a turn 3 assault at best. And then being caught hovering for a turn.

But as flying gunboats both of them look like they should work. They are expensive, but pack a lot of guns. As someone who is only going to see them across the table (I don’t play wolves) I’m OK with them. They don’t strike me as worse then any other flyers. If buying them straight, the gunboat is much better, as I’d fly them empty. But if the transport is available as a DT, it is going to be very tempting.

I agree with this. This is what I do most of the time with my stormraven. The DT idea is very tempting indeed. I'm eager to see one or multiple of these fielded.

Well I will be going with a Skyshield Landing Pad [or two] with the Ready for Takeoff for the Stormwolf. This gives me one [or two] on the table to start with.

Skyshield landing pads are a good shout!

I'd not thought about the loss of skys of fury. That is a big one.

But still - the firepower these put out is silly. Especially with potms. Slamming down an ap3 st6 large blast on some marines whilst the other guns reduce a tank a turn to molten slag is brilliant!
Even the stormwolf has great firepower. To have two twinlinked multimeltas that can be placed anywhere pretty much gives fantastic tactical flexibility, especially with potms. And of course you will also have a tl lascannon and a tl st8 ap1 shot... I wouldn't even use it as a transport despite it having a cap of 16.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Skyshield landing pads are a good shout!

I'd not thought about the loss of skys of fury. That is a big one.

But still - the firepower these put out is silly. Especially with potms. Slamming down an ap3 st6 large blast on some marines whilst the other guns reduce a tank a turn to molten slag is brilliant!
Even the stormwolf has great firepower. To have two twinlinked multimeltas that can be placed anywhere pretty much gives fantastic tactical flexibility, especially with potms. And of course you will also have a tl lascannon and a tl st8 ap1 shot... I wouldn't even use it as a transport despite it having a cap of 16.

They are nice, but not unprecedented. Most marine players should already be thinking about heldrakes vector striking and baleflamering them. The gunboat takes up the exact same role in my threat assessment. Sure, it’s using PotMS instead of VS to kill two things a turn, and the marine killing is a large blast, rather then a template, but the job is the same. Bonus vs. the wolf is that I get cover saves.

The transport is a better gunboat, but a worse troop hauler then the raven, but otherwise more or less the same (just with some wolf pelts glued on)

The Skyshield seems OK, but does start you on the ground. Sure, you get the 4++ for being on the pad, but everything can fire at full effect on you. You pay a chunk of points to swap a 1-in-6 hits for a 50% invuln. And starting on the table 1st turn, which is a perk most of the time. How many points do you want to invest in these flyers?

I think a fun list to put together would be a null deployment list. Everything either in pods or a flyer. But list building should probably wait until we see the whole codex.

Well Starting on the pad gives you a 4++ which is good. However is ends up being great even after that. I am not spending 80 points on my Stormwolf, I am spending it on my army.
After it leaves here are thing you can put on it for the 4++ Save.
>Long Fangs
>Land Speeders
>A podded in Rifleman Dread
>Grey Hunters

I like the transport one better tbh.

The helfrost cannon the transport is twinlinked, the helfrost destructor (large blast one) is not. You lose lance, but getting the reroll to hit is pretty big in the statistics of succesfully causing damage to a vehicle. Which to me makes the cannon better than the destructor for hunting anything AV13 or less and any MC. The destructor does have a magical place in hunting jetseers, if you get a psychic power off on one of these that lets you ignore cover saves you can put a lot of hurt on even a fortuned jetseer unit.

The helfrost rule is interesting. It has no effect really on 1 wound models, what makes it interesting is it's kind of an anti meta weapon. It has a good chance to kill mid range multi wound models outright, like Tau battlesuits, and a lot of the multi wound non MC daemon stuff. It also has a 1/6 chance to outright kill any MC with S6+ that it causes an unsaved wound to. So if you get a lucky wound on a WK you get an additional 1/6 chance it just freezes and explodes or something. 1/6 may not be great, but its another roll to try and get a free big kill.

tldr- I think the new model is quite good, for the cost even [in pts at least...] and I see many SW lists that are competitive including 1-2 often.

The firing arcs on the weapons means you will not be using all that firepower at once. On the Stormwolf, you get one upper turret mounted Helfrost cannon, a hull mounted twinlinked Lascannon, and two sponson mounted heavy bolters. Good luck measuring the arc for the hull mounted twin linked lascannon- seeing as how there is a good 2"-3" between the barrels. They have a 45 degree left and right, but as you can't shoot through your own vehicle, they have a +22 degree up elevation. Due to the bow of the Stormwolf, the heavy bolters will be reduced to a very strict 45 degree field of fire... and both will never be able to shoot at the same target. The top turret will be awesome for shooting at anything above the Stormwolf, but pretty useless for shooting at anything on the ground, again because you can't shoot through your own model.

The Stormfang has similar issues, except instead of a turret Helfrost, it has a hull mounted Helfrost. Once again, 45 degrees left/right, and up/down.

Put either of these models on a GW flying stand and you will NOT be able to shoot at anything within about 8"-9" of the weapon. And no, you can't tilt the model down, nor would I allow a "custom flying stand", or have the vehicle in a permanent "tilt" nose down or in a bank. I'd call that modeling for advantage. Thanks GW for your crappy vehicle rules!

While it was a poor choice by the sculptor and designer to place the weapons where they did on the Stormwolf/fang, they made up for it by placing a LOT of weapons on the model. Just remember, it will be impossible to shoot all it's weapons at the same target. At best, you will get 3 out of the 4. That's why they gave it Power of the Machine Spirit.

They are awesome anti-aircraft gunboats, but I'm still trying to figure out how that turret mounted Helfrost cannon is going to hit anything on the ground. Until I get the model, the best approximation I can get is using the Stormraven upper turret. If I want to shoot at something on the ground, I have to angle the turret about 45 degrees left or right, then angle down 22.5 degrees... and take a measurement. I get about 12". That means the closest target I could shoot at on the ground with the Helfrost cannon would be 45 degrees left or right of the hull, and 12" away as measured from the turret. Basically, if you have the bow of the Stormwolf pointed at your target on the ground, you will NOT be able to hit it with the turret.

In other words, there are HUGE deadspots where these models will not be able to shoot anything on the ground.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to it's effectiveness as a gunboat... WOW. Just... WOW. Lots of awesome guns. Maybe not the best flyer in the game, but very, very good.

It's role as a transport vehicle though... I dunno. Without the Skies of Fury rule, it makes any unit assaulting a very all or nothing thing. At best, the Storm<noun> arrives turn 2, using Hover. Unit disembarks. Note that the Storm<noun> can only move up to 6" from your table edge... that makes it difficult for the unit to be in a position to assault anything next turn. 6" transport move, +6" disembark, +d6" run move. Turn 3, the unit gets another 6" move and 2d6" charge... maybe not so bad. Possible 36" move for that unit with no difficult terrain. They will be shot at for one turn, then overwatch on the next turn.

Worst case: Storm<noun> automatically arrives turn 4. Disembarks the unit, and hopefully the unit is able to assault something next turn as the game could end on Turn 5.

Yes, there is a whole lot more to it then that- enemy position, objectives, etc. etc. The point here is, without Skies of Fury, it really, really limits the transport and assault capability of the Storm<noun>. I could see using a cheap, small unit (5 scouts maybe?) inside the Storm<noun> deployed late game to take objectives. That's about it. Or, you could go all your eggs in one basket and have a Wolf Lord in Termy Armor with a bunch of Wolf Guard in Termy armor... 600 points! Howdy ho!

A possible list comes to mind- two Storm<nouns> in a Drop Pod list. We shall see.

I see your point. However you seem to be considering a single infantry model. Most units stretch across a fair few inches and most tanks are a few inches wide (especially on side armour). So more guns will be in LOS than what you think.
Also my opponents let me tilt my assault marines so they are leaning forward as if they are jumping, and my speeders tilted as if they are zooming forward fast. So they wouldn't complain if one of these is tilted forward as though it is on a strafing run. I would imagine that they would think it a pretty douche move to complain about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You're spot on when highlighting how skies of fury is such a big loss.

Tamwulf - why is the best case to come in hovering? Are you thinking about damage from Crash and Burn?

Otherwise given you cannot assault anyway the turn you arrive from reserves, you could quite happily move 36" in turn 2. ALternatively, as mentioned, SSLP gives you g'teed on the board turn 1.

The way the model is built, putting aesthetics aside, will really hamper effectiveness I think.

The weapons are mounted to the rear end of the craft, with the transport section blocking LoS extensively.

Drawing LoS from the cockpit mounted weapons is going to be a nightmare, if it's not angled downward on its flightstand (not sure if that would count as modelling for advantage or not), the those guns are only going to be able to engage other flyers and longer range targets. The Stormwolf's rear mounted turret will face much the same issue, that transport section is going to block LoS quite effectively. Meanwhile the sponsons are going to require the aircraft to be pointed directly at a target to bring both of them to bear, and the MM option especially is going to have range issues if bringing both to bear given that they appear to be ~5" or so back on the model, meaning the front needs to be within ~7" of the target.

On paper the thing looks powerful, but from a practical standpoint, you're going to be unable to use those weapons a lot of the time just from shoebox blocking LoS.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Tamwulf - why is the best case to come in hovering? Are you thinking about damage from Crash and Burn?

Otherwise given you cannot assault anyway the turn you arrive from reserves, you could quite happily move 36" in turn 2. ALternatively, as mentioned, SSLP gives you g'teed on the board turn 1.

I made a small error in my original post about the Stormwolf- it is an Assault Vehicle. This opens up the tactical options IMMENSELY. I'll come back to that in a sec.

Models may not embark/disembark from a Zooming flyer (MWB, pg. 84 'Zoom' third paragraph). What I had though, and it still applies to the Stormfang and it's passengers, is that you would bring it on from Reserves on Turn 2, passengers would jump out, shoot or run, then Turn 3 they would get to assault. Anytime the Stormfang wants to do something with it's passengers, it's going to have to hover, and that makes it very vulnerable. This is why the lack of Skies of Fury is such an advantage for the Stormraven- it can always zoom, and the guys can always disembark and assault.

The Stormwolf still has to Hover for it's passengers to embark/disembark. The difference here is due to the Assault Vehicle rules, the guys can jump out and assault on the same turn. The Stormwolf becomes more attractive now.

Ironically enough, the best fire arc for the Helfrost cannon on the Stormwolf is the rear arc. This is also a huge advantage as it's one of the very few flyers in the game with a gun that can shoot behind it, and a very, very good gun. Will definitly be worth it when an enemy flyer pops up behind the Stormwolf.

Units can and are spread out a bit on the board, plus vehicles are a bit larger when it comes to targeting them with the Storm<noun>. Remember though, with few exceptions, you can only remove models as casualties that you can actually see. Blast weapons are an exception to this rule. The Helfrost cannon in it's blast mode will be, but things like the Heavy Bolters... ugh. The design of this ship will make shooting at a unit a nightmare as you try to figure out which models can actually be wounded by each weapon, and then which model to remove as a casualty- and it's not going to be the closest model in a lot of cases.

@Poly Ranger- it's a lot harder to claim modeling for advantage with infantry models unless you start to say kneeling models, or prone models can't be seen or draw LoS to a target because of their position on the field. Similarly, a Land Speeder tilted forward has no real effect on it's arcs- it's low enough to the board and enjoys a 180 degree arc that isn't really blocked by the rest of the model. There was a player at my old LGS that modeled a really cool Grey Knight Nemesis Dread Knight that looked like it was sliding into home plate. It was an awesome looking model, until he started claiming "By TLoS rules, you can't see my Dread Knight behind this low hill, so you can't shoot it", but if he had assembled it according to the directions, it would have been 5" tall instead of the 2.5" he made it. By tilting forward even by say, 10 degrees a Storm<noun>, you drastically change what the model can shoot at. Looking at all the pictures of the Storm<noun> in the White Dwarf, it's mounted perpendicular to the table with no tilt at all. If it has a ball and socket mount that allows you to tilt it forward like a Land Speeder, then awesome! If it's like all the rest of the flyers that use that stand, then no, I'm sorry, if you tilt it forward it's modeling for advantage. And I can prove it using the magic of mathematics. Again, blame the poorly written vehicle rules of 7th ed.

If it's a douche move to complain about it... well, it's OK as long as you and your opponent talk about it before the game, right? Not talking about it before the game would be the douche move in my opinion. THAT is where the modeling from advantage comes from. You "hide" or just don't tell your opponent that this model is better tilted forward on its stand then the way it's originally mounted. I would be perfectly OK with my opponent being upfront and telling me that. Not telling me that and then deploying the model would provoke some discussion during a game.