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I think a lot of the chapters are turning to legion building again as the end times approach. There may only be a thousand chapters but who knows how many have secretly been building their strength. I doubt it's very uncommon. The dark angels are probably at our over 10,000 men in total strength now.

If they ever advance the timeline I'd expect to see that tend continue, as well as see an unprecedented number of foundings. There is plenty of astartes implants in storage, the imperium could reinforce the existing chapters and found new ones simultaneously. And of course the more marines there are total, the faster you can make even more marines.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I think a lot of the chapters are turning to legion building again as the end times approach. There may only be a thousand chapters but who knows how many have secretly been building their strength. I doubt it's very uncommon. The dark angels are probably at our over 10,000 men in total strength now.

If they ever advance the timeline I'd expect to see that tend continue, as well as see an unprecedented number of foundings. There is plenty of astartes implants in storage, the imperium could reinforce the existing chapters and found new ones simultaneously. And of course the more marines there are total, the faster you can make even more marines.

Yeah. If it's the end times why the hell not boost astartes? I mean, innumerable tyranids are encroaching upon the Imperium....some..help maybe? More spess mehreens maybe?

I don't think returning to legions will kill Grim dark, it might fuel it more. Writers and GW are less likely to let SM lose large scale battles because it could mean an entire chapter has no chance of recovery. Its all good tho, another chapter might just spawn off the UM and pop up like its no big deal. if you put the top 25 popular chapters (GW, FW and BL) to Legion strength, the plot could move forward and it would not only be more epic (imagine 10,000 Space Sharks, or SW or BT fighting huge tyranid fleets)

Buff everything up! not just marines, keep them out numbered still the way they are by crons, orks and nids. The fight against chaos growing larger and more costly, it shows how doomed humanity really is even with their huge legions of armored Feth yeah machines. Nothing dashes hope more than seeing your last line of defense super soldiers get slaughtered due to overwhelming numbers.

The stories you could tell about how a whole company of marines was lost after four months of fighting between orks and tyranids, the last transmissions of the PDF come through and the reality that humanity is only stalling the inevitable really hits home. This is just my opinion and a direction I could see if you beefed up 40K and turned the grimdark up to 11.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
I don't think returning to legions will kill Grim dark, it might fuel it more. Writers and GW are less likely to let SM lose large scale battles because it could mean an entire chapter has no chance of recovery. Its all good tho, another chapter might just spawn off the UM and pop up like its no big deal. if you put the top 25 popular chapters (GW, FW and BL) to Legion strength, the plot could move forward and it would not only be more epic (imagine 10,000 Space Sharks, or SW or BT fighting huge tyranid fleets)

Buff everything up! not just marines, keep them out numbered still the way they are by crons, orks and nids. The fight against chaos growing larger and more costly, it shows how doomed humanity really is even with their huge legions of armored Feth yeah machines. Nothing dashes hope more than seeing your last line of defense super soldiers get slaughtered due to overwhelming numbers.

The stories you could tell about how a whole company of marines was lost after four months of fighting between orks and tyranids, the last transmissions of the PDF come through and the reality that humanity is only stalling the inevitable really hits home. This is just my opinion and a direction I could see if you beefed up 40K and turned the grimdark up to 11.

Yess! This post said it all. Legions would be a lot more interesting on a much larger scale. As you said, losing a legion of 10,000 is a lot more grimdark then losing 1,000.

Kiwidru wrote:
Earth has a population of 7.05 billion, without system-wide planetary specialization of the far future.

Even if a SM is equivalent to 1,000 humans, it would take 7,050 chapters to fight earth to a tie.

7,050,000,000 humans / 1,000 humans per marine= 7,050,000 marines
7,050,000 marines / 1,000 marines per chapter = 7,050 chapters.

That's so stupid: their arnt even 7,050 chapters in GW lore.

even if a marine could average 10,000 guardsmen, it would take over 700 chapters at their current sizes to pacify earth.

This math is incredibly flawed. You need to control for age at a minimum to get a better estimate of the fighting population and even then that doesn't account for the percentage that actually becomes militarized. 629 million people are under the age of 4 for starters. http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/broker

Accounting for all people (both genders) aged 15 to 49, you have a total of ~3.705 billion people who are in "prime" fighting age. Lets go full grim dark and assume that 90% of that population is currently under arms, you'd have a military of ~3.33 billion people. Of course, that leaves no one to produce anything (weapons, food, batteries, etc) that are required for a war and is a whole seperate discussion. The world wide trend is closer to something like 1-2% of people actively under arms, which makes for a much smaller ~74 million soldiers. Significantly less marines required, particularly when you start going into the nuance of where and when they'd be used.

There are so many cases in dexes, supplements, WD's, novels, where SM hold a battlefront or advance on an opponents battle line. They do not just perform surgical strikes, which is the usual defense of the 1000 number. They cannot sustain the amount of attrition needed for this type of warfare.
10,000 makes sense and has a better 'feel' to it imo.
Plus look at their fleets. BFG said a chapter could have upto 10 strike cruisers and 3 battle barges. Not including all the escort vessels. It also states that a strike cruiser can carry over a company of marines + support vehicles and 6 thunderhawks.
Now if each company has SIX thunderhawks each, why don't they use them in pitched battles? Six thunderhawks is far more powerful than a company of marines. They also have 3-4 dreads per company, two hands worth of tanks/speeders, stormravens, stormtalons, TFCs etc. So if you have say 6 thunderhawks, 6 stormravens/talons, 4 dreadnoughts and 8/9 tanks/speeders, 4/5 TFCs per 100 marines... WHY DONT THEY USE THEM??? Why do we never see this ratio in battles? The ratio would make far more sense if we had more marines per company!

Source saying that every company has all these things?

PanzerLeader wrote:

Kiwidru wrote:
Earth has a population of 7.05 billion, without system-wide planetary specialization of the far future.

Even if a SM is equivalent to 1,000 humans, it would take 7,050 chapters to fight earth to a tie.

7,050,000,000 humans / 1,000 humans per marine= 7,050,000 marines
7,050,000 marines / 1,000 marines per chapter = 7,050 chapters.

That's so stupid: their arnt even 7,050 chapters in GW lore.

even if a marine could average 10,000 guardsmen, it would take over 700 chapters at their current sizes to pacify earth.

This math is incredibly flawed. You need to control for age at a minimum to get a better estimate of the fighting population and even then that doesn't account for the percentage that actually becomes militarized. 629 million people are under the age of 4 for starters. http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/broker

Accounting for all people (both genders) aged 15 to 49, you have a total of ~3.705 billion people who are in "prime" fighting age. Lets go full grim dark and assume that 90% of that population is currently under arms, you'd have a military of ~3.33 billion people. Of course, that leaves no one to produce anything (weapons, food, batteries, etc) that are required for a war and is a whole seperate discussion. The world wide trend is closer to something like 1-2% of people actively under arms, which makes for a much smaller ~74 million soldiers. Significantly less marines required, particularly when you start going into the nuance of where and when they'd be used.

LOL. Excuse me, ill correct that to, "That's so stupid: their arnt even 3,700 chapters in GW lore." The point was a thought exercise to show how stupid the whole concept really is if someone over 13 thinks about it.

1. Lore states there are ~1000 chapters
2. Ultramarines/successors account for ~2/3rds of all marines
3. Ultramarines have ~30 recognized successors

DOES NOT COMPUTE (Although i guess it is possible that the other 600 successors have all been miraculously hidden)

Quotes are hard

-Check BA dex and C:SM ultramarine example of chapter. Divide number of vehicles by 10 to get an average.
-Check whichever ancient WD it was which released the SM battlefleet States that a strikecruiser holds enough room for an entire company + support vehicles. Also states it holds two flights of 3 thunderhawks. Also states each chapter has 1-3 battle barges and 1-10 strike cruisers.

From an in-lore perspective:

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

The key issue is that it gives individual marines too much power. As superhuman the Space Marines are, they're still flawed and corruptable. The Imperium already went through the Horus Heresy. The 1000 marine limit was designed specifically to circumevent this issue. Gulliman knew that in the event a marine chapter/legion fell to Chaos, or went renegade, (Which certain chapters have done) that 1000 marines would be a far less loss than 10,000.

If the Imperium wanted to boost the number of marines, it would be more viable to instead increase of the number of chapters running around, so there can still overall more marines.

From my own perspective:

Having 1000 marines per chapter isn't bad. It works to the marines advantage, as it makes them appear more badass (imo). Marines are more than just soldiers of war, they work in conjunction with PDF, Imperial Guard, whoever and they become a force multiplier. For most chapters, they are soldiers of legend that do more than wreck house on the field, but are also a source of inspiration and morale that make the more common soldiers beside them fight harder.

IMO, boosting a chapter's numbers would work against this image, and instead make them more like Elite Mooks.

pm713 wrote:
Source saying that every company has all these things?

What? If I understand what you're asking:

"The 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Companies are known as Battle Companies and are split into six Tactical Squads, two Assault Squads and two Devastator Squads." -Lexicanum

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Source saying that every company has all these things?

What? If I understand what you're asking:

"The 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Companies are known as Battle Companies and are split into six Tactical Squads, two Assault Squads and two Devastator Squads." -Lexicanum

You didn't understand. I was asking for a source that all spacemarine companies always have that many Thunderhawks and other vehicles mentioned in the post above mine.

After thinking, could be another reason the codex shrunk them.
THe ultras fought dispersed amongst the humies.

Walking flags, bolster the line here and there.

pm713 wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Source saying that every company has all these things?

What? If I understand what you're asking:

"The 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Companies are known as Battle Companies and are split into six Tactical Squads, two Assault Squads and two Devastator Squads." -Lexicanum

You didn't understand. I was asking for a source that all spacemarine companies always have that many Thunderhawks and other vehicles mentioned in the post above mine.

Oh, in that case:

"Though each Company within the Chapter maintains their own store of light vehicles, such as Rhinos and Land Speeders, heavy armour is kept within the Armoury's motor pool and deployed only on a mission-by-mission basis. The only exception is the Chapter's 1st Company, which maintains a permanent store of Land Raiders for their personal need." -Lexicanum

Conclusion, thunderhawks and such count as heavy armour and are deployed at the whim of the armoury.

No more confusion on that one everybody.

Kiwidru wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

Kiwidru wrote:
Earth has a population of 7.05 billion, without system-wide planetary specialization of the far future.

Even if a SM is equivalent to 1,000 humans, it would take 7,050 chapters to fight earth to a tie.

7,050,000,000 humans / 1,000 humans per marine= 7,050,000 marines
7,050,000 marines / 1,000 marines per chapter = 7,050 chapters.

That's so stupid: their arnt even 7,050 chapters in GW lore.

even if a marine could average 10,000 guardsmen, it would take over 700 chapters at their current sizes to pacify earth.

This math is incredibly flawed. You need to control for age at a minimum to get a better estimate of the fighting population and even then that doesn't account for the percentage that actually becomes militarized. 629 million people are under the age of 4 for starters. http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/broker

Accounting for all people (both genders) aged 15 to 49, you have a total of ~3.705 billion people who are in "prime" fighting age. Lets go full grim dark and assume that 90% of that population is currently under arms, you'd have a military of ~3.33 billion people. Of course, that leaves no one to produce anything (weapons, food, batteries, etc) that are required for a war and is a whole seperate discussion. The world wide trend is closer to something like 1-2% of people actively under arms, which makes for a much smaller ~74 million soldiers. Significantly less marines required, particularly when you start going into the nuance of where and when they'd be used.

LOL. Excuse me, ill correct that to, "That's so stupid: their arnt even 3,700 chapters in GW lore." The point was a thought exercise to show how stupid the whole concept really is if someone over 13 thinks about it.

1. Lore states there are ~1000 chapters
2. Ultramarines/successors account for ~2/3rds of all marines
3. Ultramarines have ~30 recognized successors

DOES NOT COMPUTE (Although i guess it is possible that the other 600 successors have all been miraculously hidden)

Quotes are hard

acthey have ~30 LISTED sucessors. there's never been a complete list of sucessor chapters, and never will be given one of the names of the game is "Create your own sucessor chapters" which is also why codex space Marines refuses to use any absolute language regarding sucessors not being formed of chapters like the salamanders.

BrianDavion wrote:

Kiwidru wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

Kiwidru wrote:
Earth has a population of 7.05 billion, without system-wide planetary specialization of the far future.

Even if a SM is equivalent to 1,000 humans, it would take 7,050 chapters to fight earth to a tie.

7,050,000,000 humans / 1,000 humans per marine= 7,050,000 marines
7,050,000 marines / 1,000 marines per chapter = 7,050 chapters.

That's so stupid: their arnt even 7,050 chapters in GW lore.

even if a marine could average 10,000 guardsmen, it would take over 700 chapters at their current sizes to pacify earth.

This math is incredibly flawed. You need to control for age at a minimum to get a better estimate of the fighting population and even then that doesn't account for the percentage that actually becomes militarized. 629 million people are under the age of 4 for starters. http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/broker

Accounting for all people (both genders) aged 15 to 49, you have a total of ~3.705 billion people who are in "prime" fighting age. Lets go full grim dark and assume that 90% of that population is currently under arms, you'd have a military of ~3.33 billion people. Of course, that leaves no one to produce anything (weapons, food, batteries, etc) that are required for a war and is a whole seperate discussion. The world wide trend is closer to something like 1-2% of people actively under arms, which makes for a much smaller ~74 million soldiers. Significantly less marines required, particularly when you start going into the nuance of where and when they'd be used.

LOL. Excuse me, ill correct that to, "That's so stupid: their arnt even 3,700 chapters in GW lore." The point was a thought exercise to show how stupid the whole concept really is if someone over 13 thinks about it.

1. Lore states there are ~1000 chapters
2. Ultramarines/successors account for ~2/3rds of all marines
3. Ultramarines have ~30 recognized successors

DOES NOT COMPUTE (Although i guess it is possible that the other 600 successors have all been miraculously hidden)

Quotes are hard

acthey have ~30 LISTED sucessors. there's never been a complete list of sucessor chapters, and never will be given one of the names of the game is "Create your own sucessor chapters" which is also why codex space Marines refuses to use any absolute language regarding sucessors not being formed of chapters like the salamanders.

Excellent point. [Sarcasm] It makes total sense that there would only be a record of less than .05% of the successors of the most prolific and recognized spacemarine breeders out there. what is the point of having over 99.5% of your military force HAVING NEVER BEEN SEEN OR INTERACTED WITH BY ANY HUMAN IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND? Who is checking the record keeping on Macragge?!? It is completely logical that they kept and widely published the records of .05% of the autonomous military organizations that spawned, each of which has the power to destroy entire human systems, and no one has ever asked about the other 99.5% of the battle-crazed superhuman killing machines that they are flooding the galaxy with. [/Sarcasm]

i can see it now: waynes world cut scene
*twoodullu twoodollu twoodullu*
-+-+-+-space marine walks out of a drop pod in the midst of guardsmen fighting chaos marines.-+-+-+-
Human on Random Planet: Alright! space marines came to save the day! what chapter are you from?
Space Marine: the hipster chapter, you've probably never heard of us.
HoRP: that sounds cool, but how do i know you're good marines, and not jsut bad marines with no horns?
SM: dude, were from the ultramarines... you've heard of them, RIGHT?
HoRP: of course! they're the best! do you have close ties with them?
SM: Nah.
HoRP: huh? why not.
SM: not worth it to document the creation of an autonomous military force, why would you need to?
HoRP:...I dont know, i guess so that your military allies can verify who you are? i mean, there's gotta be a record; with the inquisition, or the imperium of man, or a titan legion you've fought with, or maybe jsut some people within the spacemarines that remember. even within your own records...they have to start SOMEWHERE?
SM: nah, its too hard to keep track of.
HoRP: But, i imagine there is a receipt somewhere, documenting your existence, proving you are who you are...right. cause i know of some actual ultramarine successors, and they dont seem to have a problem with record keeping
SM: UHG, i automatically regroup when i fall back, and you see Marneus Augustus Kalgar over there... This'll be our secret, but that's the Other Guy *wink wink* with a different color shirt on. And that Other Guy wouldnt work for us unless we were using the same chapter tactics, would he?
HoRP: I guess so...It jsut seems strange that Ultramarines are training tons and tons of military personnel, arming them, and then just setting them free to their own devices, how can you be sure that these chaos marines were fighting arnt Ultramarine successors, too?
SM: Chaos marines have horns ...duh.
HoRP: that IS a good point, but what about the chaos chapters go rogue, but dont turn to chaos? Or marines that cut their horns off for deception, how do you tell them apart?
SM: Chaos Marines dont automatically regroup when they fall back, look you ask a lot of questions for a human. Just accept that im the good guy, and im carpet bomb this planet's human population in the name of the emperor.
HoRP: my bad, it jsut seems awfully evil to have absolute power... i read somewhere that "absolute power something something absolutely."

(seriously, why do i suck at quotes)

If you're going to fix Space Marine numbers then you may as well actually fix them. A ten thousand per chapter "fix " rather than one thousand simply draws more attention to the fact that it's an absurdly small number.
I'd have to say there'd need to be about a million Marines per chapter, if each comes packing the strength of a hundred of a hundred men or whatever then you could see a concentrated Force that size kicking some heads in while still being rare on an Imperium wide basis.

Kiwidru wrote:
Excellent point. [Sarcasm] It makes total sense that there would only be a record of less than .05% of the successors of the most prolific and recognized spacemarine breeders out there. what is the point of having over 99.5% of your military force HAVING NEVER BEEN SEEN OR INTERACTED WITH BY ANY HUMAN IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND? Who is checking the record keeping on Macragge?!? It is completely logical that they kept and widely published the records of .05% of the autonomous military organizations that spawned, each of which has the power to destroy entire human systems, and no one has ever asked about the other 99.5% of the battle-crazed superhuman killing machines that they are flooding the galaxy with. [/Sarcasm]

Just because GW has not publish a list of all the Chapters, does not mean the Imperium in universe doesn't have a more comprehensive list than 30 Chapters.
We've not seen a million Imperial Worlds mentioned in the fluff either.

i get that is a simple loophole to allow kids to make their own chapters, and paint their toys however they want.

It's jsut a completely absurd one that was literally the laziest thing they could have gone with.

 TheCustomLime wrote:


The problem is that if they are only in 1% of the Imperium's wars then they aren't contributing meaningfully to the Imperial war effort. Sure, they may win key victories because of their Space Marineyness but they aren't helping the Imperium's war situation at all. The problem with the Imperium right now is that really big fat meanies can stomp worlds into the dirt without repercussions if they work faster than a few months. Space Marines being at 1% doesn't help the situation any. In fact, with how many of those big fat meanies used to be Space Marines their existence probably made it worse.

It's a catch-22 with Space Marines. Having only a few Space Marines and they have negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources. Having many Space Marines will allow you to stomp enemies into the ground. But having so many allows for even more Chaos Marines who can wreck the Imperium's gak worse than anyone else. End result is that having a bunch of Space marines has a negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources.

The bolded part is the point, their are not enough and the Imperial is falling. The galaxy is dying, as the the fluff. Human being wiped out is the end game. The SM are not meant to stop this, they are meant to show the pointlessness of it all.