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 vipoid wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
Regardless of what people think about the rules, I think most agree that GW's models look amazing. It's probably one of the biggest reasons we continue to buy them.

Some models look amazing... many others don't.

About half the vehicles they sell are just 'a box with tank-tracks' or 'a box with wings'. Nicely detailed boxes, but boxes nevertheless.

Also, there are just a lot of models that are decent, but not worth the price they charge. e.g. Immortals look ok, but I just can't see them as being worth £5 per model.

And, they also have a lot of models that are just plain ugly - yet they still charge premium prices for them. Look at either of the 'bat' units in VCs and tell me they look amazing.

Finally, I don't necessarily want extra detail (or whatever it is that makes them look amazing, at the cost of jacking up the price) on all my units. It's fine on big monsters and characters, but on an infantry unit that I'm going to have several boxes of? I'will happily sacrifice a bit of detail if it means keeping the cost down.

I started to feel things were tanking (lol) when they had to release so many effing rhino varients. I know that it ammount to weapon swaps, but I just feel the vehicle smorgasbord started there. Some armies get one or two different tanks, and some have dozens.

I agree that if GW was selling at the same rate as total war gamer, dark sphere or element games they would win back people like me who looks for bnib stuff elsewhere.

Is it because this calculated expectation to win more buyers too high a risk for them or are they just fools for real??

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
In the last few weeks I've bought a Morkanaut, Stormclaw set, Flash Gitz, Ork Codex, Thraka supplement, Battlewagon and an Imperial Knight.

I'm on a low wage but can still afford these on top of mortgate, car, bills, etc. So I really don't see an issue with the prices as they are.

To be honest, for what goes into designing, production and material costs I'm amazed they're as cheap as they are.

Has anyone seen the pre-painted Dungeons & Dragons 6 figure set for £18.00? They are seriously ugly, badly painted with little detail. Give me GW figures over the likes of them any day.

Logic like this hurts my head.

Sense It could be worse, why complain? Sense I can afford it, why complain? The quality is fine, so who cares about the prices? With all the effort in design, production, and material costs, not to mention all the time spent play testing (Wait a moment...) why should we complain?

That logic is flat out wrong. sense theirs a place that sells an 80 dollar luxury hotdogs in new york, it would be ok to buy a 20 dollar hotdog somewhere else right? I mean, it could be worse. I can afford that 20 dollar hotdog, so whats the problem? That 20 dollar hotdog tasted pretty good, so it was worth it. I bet it takes allot of money to design the hotdog, produce the hotdog, and all of the costs associated with the hotdog, we must be getting a deal for the 20 dollar hotdog.

Literally the logic is terrible.

So do you make similar complaints to expensive restaurants? Do you go bug Ferrari about the price of their cars. I mean, a Ferrari still gets you from A to B just as much as a Skoda, and a Skoda is more reliable. Why shop at Waitrose when you can shop at Aldi?

So no, it's not terrible logic at all. It's every day marketing. I genuinely feel there is quality in GWs products that I am prepared to pay for, just as much as people pay for quality in pretty much every other product on the market. Now quality is quite often a personal preference and what people see as quality is something different altogether. From your post I guess you don't value GW models as much as I do, which I can fully understand, everyone has their own priorities and values.

Now I do buy other products and see the value in them. Warlord Games are great value. Wizkids Heroclix are over-priced tat, but I like the game and still buy them.

Personally I put value in what I get out of a product. I don't collect Action Figures any more because they just sit on a shelf. I get more enjoyment out of 40K than any other game right now so am happy to pay the prices.

Given I can buy a 2 terrabyte hard drive for less than $100, it's pretty hard to say that the effort going into designing the Marneus Calgar kit warrants it being the same price, when it probably costs a couple dollars for each kit to be produced.

Plastic toys should not cost as much as they do but we pay it because we like our plastic toys. There is a limit though and for what seems to be enough people now, it seems to have been reached. I too can spend something like $300 on hobbies a week but when offered a choice of Cadians or double the quantity of Eisenkern at better quality with more options, the choice is simple. As more competing ranges come to market, fewer GW ranges will see purchases Space Marines will have direct competitors with hard plastic Mantic Enforcers and the even better Dreamforge Valkir by the end of the year. GWs top selling range seeing stiff competition for once and at much better prices.

I posted this in another thread and thought I would bring it here with a few changes because...
I swear I am a glutton for punishment because I always come to these threads to try to convince people that this entire topic is opinion and each opinion is as valid as the next. We will never really get anywhere because it is entirely based on subjective opinion.
GW prices are just fine and this is a list of reasons why I disagree with the minority out there. Would I like them to be less. Well yeah. Free would be awesome but that isn't going to happen.

Most people believe GW prices are just fine. This is true for me as it is for many others. This is a luxury, as most hobbies are. It is up to the individual what to buy.
A very vocal minority don't and believe the prices are unreasonable. And they swear they are representative of the whole. Most often I believe this has more to do with their own difficulties affording the product than the actual price itself. If they could go out and buy anything, whenever they wanted, they would possibly complain less. (some people just like to complain)

The other frequent complaint amongst the minority is that prices have gone up over the years.
They have. Most everything has. It is a complaint and a valid reason for an individual to choose not to buy, but it is not representative of any fact other than they cost more now.

The idea that other companies are cheaper is also a fallacy.
dollar for dollar Price per model is generally the same if not higher, plus the average competitors kits are not always as good a value either.
The most often example is Privateer Press.
A box of Invictors is $45 msrp. For 10 models in 3 maybe 4 poses. (which they attempt to hide by rotating the same sculpts) This is the same through most of their range.
GW kits give you 10 models plus option, plus extra bits for a similar price point. Often about $5 less for core troop.
PP Collossals/gargantuan are an average of $20 more that the large kits from GW and tend to be smaller and again lack different options.
We do have other companies making fantastic models, like some of the Japanese mecha kits, but these are display models not gaming models. Some of the GW models are already fragile enough.
As for good versus bad models that is entirely subjective just as choosing to play space marines or tyranids. The aesthetic is up to you.
.
Another fallacy claimed to be proof that it is too expensive is that people can/do buy it for a discount. All this shows is the desire for the product and that other vendors are willing to attempt to make up profit on volume.
The fact that they can accomplish this shows that the item is highly desirable.
The higher and lower prices based on usage or popularity is standard marketing. GW is not doing anything different to any other company. Xbox knows that most people will need an extra controller and doesn't include it so you can buy another one by itself. More popular games start at $60 less popular as low as $30 (I'm guessing on those prices because I don't play xbox so I don't know how specific they are but I do see different prices on the shelves.)

Cost of entry to play is too high. (which for some it may be too high but it is not proof of unreasonable pricing only that it is too high for that individual.). Play lower points and the entry cost gets lower and lower.
Other examples include the idea that you can play with less models in other games.
Depending on the army you choose you can lower the model count, then lower the points and it becomes even less.
I have a 1500 point Deathwing army with 19 models. I could make a 1500 point army of a different kind with well over 200 models.
I don't blame the company for the choice of army I play and personally I think it is disingenuous to blame the company.

The ideas that other companies do 'X' and GW doesn't is not valid proof either because turning the table shows the same general idea. I.e GW does 'X' so the other company should.
For example some state how company X gives the rule book for free, so GW should. yet it is just as simple to say GW get $50 for a book so company X should charge $50.
No one seems to ask if the reason they are giving the book away is because no one feels that that book is worth $50, where as if people are buying GW books then they have found value in that book.(Theory of Subjective value)

The biggest challenge to overcome is that your like/dislike is just as valid as everyone elses. It does not prove anything other than your feelings. And for some strange reason GW is the company people love to hate.
Your purchase or lack there of shows your stance. That is all.
The fact that people have such angst towards GW but go to GW forums, follow their product and continue to discuss all things GW is really quite telling.
One persons trash is another persons treasure.

Ork Trukk - $20.00
Starter Set - $60.00
Codexes - $40.00
Terminators and all other infantry models - $50.00 or less.
All models above 60...reduced to 60.

 Throt wrote:
Most people believe GW prices are just fine.

When your post is based on this false premise, it's not really worth reading. The rapidly declining sales along with numerous accounts of players stating it's at least partially due to prices show it as incorrect.

edit: I skimmed the rest and yeah, so much... baloney? I believe is the US term for it.

Apropo of nothing.

Furioso Dreadnought Kit, a plastic kit that allows you to make 3 different Dreadnoughts, with all relevant arm options, various sarcophagus lids etc £28, released 2011.

New Bjorn/Space Wolf Ven Dread/Murderfang kit, all of the above. £33.

So a 20%+ hike cause reasons.

Followed by GW sinking in a stream of bubbles, leaving their shareholders wondering what went wrong....

GW is not charging what the market will bear, they are charging what the market will not bear - and are suffering therefrom.

The Auld Grump

 Yonan wrote:

 Throt wrote:
Most people believe GW prices are just fine.

When your post is based on this false premise, it's not really worth reading. The rapidly declining sales along with numerous accounts of players stating it's at least partially due to prices show it as incorrect.

edit: I skimmed the rest and yeah, so much... baloney? I believe is the US term for it.

You are assuming it is a false premise with no understanding of the post. I can easily say you do not understand the post because you admitted you skimmed it and did not read it. You are free to make your assumptions.
Skimming a post is not a very efficient way of determining baloney. But it is helpful to maintain your personal bias.

Declining sales is not necessarily, and definitely not defined by price point. A persons economics plays a role and with the current economy that is the most likely factor add to that This is a niche hobby if you have no one to play with most stop buying. When local stores close and people have no one to play with these play into sales. Price point is very low on the scale, though as I said, for some it is the deciding factor. But they are not the majority.
As people have less disposable income, things like hobbies become less important as money must be allocated elsewhere.
My wife and I are on 1 income at the moment so I have less money to buy GW with.
If you read my post you would see that I believe there to be a vocal minority screaming about prices. You would have also seen that I am not saying it doesn't happen but it is FAR from the root cause.
As a Mod you can probably see who is posting in these topics. Typically it is the same people, the accounts are numerous but often it is the same people repeating themselves. Many people just don't care to get involved and peacefully enjoy their games.
Most often when I decide to jump into these on whatever site, it is often the same names over and over.

Other than baloney do you have anything to show the declining sales is related more to prices than the other factors that apply to all business? Like the economy.
If I remember rightly sales fell by 9% mostly due to a poor year in North America which is not a surprise as most companies suffered over prior years and were only able to move ahead through restructuring.

hammeyaneggs wrote:

Do you go bug Ferrari about the price of their cars. I mean, a Ferrari still gets you from A to B just as much as a Skoda, and a Skoda is more reliable.



/off topic
What the heck is a Skoda?

No, I don't bug Ferrari about their prices. Know why? Because they're a legitimate prestige brand who are genuinely amongst the best at what they do, making high performance, small production volume, highly advanced cars, by a significant margin. Just as I wouldn't have a problem paying £000 to a sculptor to make me a range of bespoke minis, should I have that sort of cash on hand. Games Workshop is not Ferrari, they are a mainstream brand, perhaps not Ford, maybe BMW if one were feeling generous, who think it is sufficient to act like a premium brand and charge like a premium brand, but fail to grasp they aren't selling a premium product.

FYI Skoda are a former Eastern European car manufacturer (Czech, IIRC) lampooned mercilessly throughout the 70s and into the 80s for their poor build quality and reliability, before being purchased by Volkswagen and turned into one of those brands which lacks the caché of some of the more well-known marques, but has been quietly churning out good quality, well built and competitively priced cars for a number of years, with the odd weirdo like the Yeti and their range of high performance diesels (VRS's IIRC)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Throt wrote:


Declining sales is not necessarily, and definitely not defined by price point. A persons economics plays a role and with the current economy that is the most likely factor add to that This is a niche hobby if you have no one to play with most stop buying. When local stores close and people have no one to play with these play into sales. Price point is very low on the scale, though as I said, for some it is the deciding factor. But they are not the majority.
As people have less disposable income, things like hobbies become less important as money must be allocated elsewhere.
My wife and I are on 1 income at the moment so I have less money to buy GW with.

Which would be a solid argument if GW hadn't continued to maintain their financial performance throughout the worst of the financial crisis, largely unaffected it seems, and certainly they claim to be "recession proof." Only now, as most major economies are returning to growth, are GW showing signs of struggle.

The UK economy returned to pre-crisis levels for the first time the week before GW published their financials this year, and the country is experiencing record levels of employment (admittedly the quality of that employment isn't necessarily uniformly great, but employment nonetheless.) While I don't doubt there are individual cases, like yourself, where personal economic factors have curbed spending, and it would take a fool to try and claim the financial crisis had no effect whatsoever on any business, but to try and use it to explain the recent downturn in revenue? Sorry, the timing just doesn't fit.

 Ugavine wrote:
So do you make similar complaints to expensive restaurants?

Sure, I certainly do make similar complaints about expensive restaurants. There are plenty of places (and brands) that overcharge just to be more exclusive. I have never found that paying over the odds guarantees better food or service (usually the opposite). Nothing grinds my gears like a place that charges £100 a head for a meal that consists of one slither of kani and a carrot cut into a star shape. Those places can bugger off!

But when it comes to value I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong answer. It depends on your attitude and what you consider a fair comparison. When I eat at expensive places I tend to look at my food, realize it's the exact same stuff I can get anywhere, and then feel that I've been scammed. I don't really get it. But perhaps someone else will see some value in the place that I didn't. Maybe they got to post on their facebook that some D-list celebrity (who I'd never have heard of) was eating there at the same time, and that made it all worthwhile. Who knows what drives other people?

Certainly the 'exclusive' 'elite' business model has worked for some brands, such as Gucci and Ferrari. But I fail to see how it is supposed to work for GW. A Ferrari is a status symbol, the advantage of owning one is that you can drive up to a girl and she'll go "Wow is that your Ferrari?" *pants come down*. Trust me when I tell you that showing girls your GW stuff does not elicit the same response (usually the opposite). And never have I spotted Winona Ryder at my flgs slipping a Deff Rolla up her jumper... It's just not that kind of product.

Personally, I think GW would need to be about 30% cheaper than it is now to get me buying again. Their paints would need to be on a par with their competitors. And as for their books... Without some assurance that the current edition will last, I'd be reluctant to even waste shelf space on them, even if they were free.

For new customers I think the barrier to entry is way too high. The prices are obviously going to put more than a minority of new customers off, which is just idiocy. Even illiterate backstreet drug pushers have the business acumen to know that "the first hit is always free". GW's business model is clearly based around the headless chicken paradigm.

 Azreal13 wrote:


No, I don't bug Ferrari about their prices. Know why? Because they're a legitimate prestige brand who are genuinely amongst the best at what they do, making high performance, small production volume, highly advanced cars, by a significant margin. Just as I wouldn't have a problem paying £000 to a sculptor to make me a range of bespoke minis, should I have that sort of cash on hand. Games Workshop is not Ferrari, they are a mainstream brand, perhaps not Ford, maybe BMW if one were feeling generous, who think it is sufficient to act like a premium brand and charge like a premium brand, but fail to grasp they aren't selling a premium product.

You of course are entitled to your opinion, but you don't think that GW is the prestige brand of the niche market of table top wargaming? Wargaming is not mainstream.
GW is years ahead of the majority of their competitors in almost every aspect.

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 Throt wrote:


Declining sales is not necessarily, and definitely not defined by price point. A persons economics plays a role and with the current economy that is the most likely factor add to that This is a niche hobby if you have no one to play with most stop buying. When local stores close and people have no one to play with these play into sales. Price point is very low on the scale, though as I said, for some it is the deciding factor. But they are not the majority.
As people have less disposable income, things like hobbies become less important as money must be allocated elsewhere.
My wife and I are on 1 income at the moment so I have less money to buy GW with.

Which would be a solid argument if GW hadn't continued to maintain their financial performance throughout the worst of the financial crisis, largely unaffected it seems, and certainly they claim to be "recession proof." Only now, as most major economies are returning to growth, are GW showing signs of struggle.

The UK economy returned to pre-crisis levels for the first time the week before GW published their financials this year, and the country is experiencing record levels of employment (admittedly the quality of that employment isn't necessarily uniformly great, but employment nonetheless.) While I don't doubt there are individual cases, like yourself, where personal economic factors have curbed spending, and it would take a fool to try and claim the financial crisis had no effect whatsoever on any business, but to try and use it to explain the recent downturn in revenue? Sorry, the timing just doesn't fit.

It is possible that demand has decreased. GW has closed many of their North American locations and made some poor decisions with trade in regard to independent retailers and this is a social hobby that relies on brick and mortar to help generate new players. This is the most likely cause for a decline in sales.
There is no evidence to tie it to prices. It doesn't make sense that the market is paying the prices for the past years then suddenly they stop, it is unlikely.
GW financial report acknowledges that they had continuing problems in poorly performing North America. North America is still far from recovered from many of the financial issues over the past years and though has seen some return of employment it is still far away from pre recession levels.
So you think that the prices are a more valid reason for declining sales than the economy? So people were spending during the major parts of the recession and then as things improved they stopped spending? I'm not sure how that data works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Smacks wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
So do you make similar complaints to expensive restaurants?

Sure, I certainly do make similar complaints about expensive restaurants. There are plenty of places (and brands) that overcharge just to be more exclusive. I have never found that paying over the odds guarantees better food or service (usually the opposite). Nothing grinds my gears like a place that charges £100 a head for a meal that consists of one slither of kani and a carrot cut into a star shape. Those places can bugger off!

But when it comes to value I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong answer. It depends on your attitude and what you consider a fair comparison. When I eat at expensive places I tend to look at my food, realize it's the exact same stuff I can get anywhere, and then feel that I've been scammed. I don't really get it. But perhaps someone else will see some value in the place that I didn't. Maybe they got to post on their facebook that some D-list celebrity (who I'd never have heard of) was eating there at the same time, and that made it all worthwhile. Who knows what drives other people?

Certainly the 'exclusive' 'elite' business model has worked for some brands, such as Gucci and Ferrari. But I fail to see how it is supposed to work for GW. A Ferrari is a status symbol, the advantage of owning one is that you can drive up to a girl and she'll go "Wow is that your Ferrari?" *pants come down*. Trust me when I tell you that showing girls your GW stuff does not elicit the same response (usually the opposite). And never have I spotted Winona Ryder at my flgs slipping a Deff Rolla up her jumper... It's just not that kind of product.

Personally, I think GW would need to be about 30% cheaper than it is now to get me buying again. Their paints would need to be on a par with their competitors. And as for their books... Without some assurance that the current edition will last, I'd be reluctant to even waste shelf space on them, even if they were free.

For new customers I think the barrier to entry is way too high. The prices are obviously going to put more than a minority of new customers off, which is just idiocy. Even illiterate backstreet drug pushers have the business acumen to know that "the first hit is always free". GW's business model is clearly based around the headless chicken paradigm.

You do realize that your view on fine dining and GW is entirely valid right.?
And also shows that value in todays market is almost entirely subjective.
You do not see value in the expensive restaurant, and you do not see it in GW. Some may feel the same about 1 and not the other.
The fact that fine dining exists and GW is still selling product at their price point shows that many still see a value in the items.
You have in your own admissions shown that GW prices are what they should be.

GW is a niche and has huge varying product lines with more options than any other system.
The cost of entry is $100. That is the price of a starter set that gets you playing. 1/4 the price of a play station. Much less than RC cars or planes.

I don't really think GW figures are all that high quality in many cases. Their plastic figures are variable, some are good, others, particularly the older ones, are fairly lumpy in their details. They aren't crisp and fine. This wouldn't be so bad on old things like the Catachans if they were still 50p like when released but they're now £1.80 a head.

I also think GW and some of their defenders confuse detail with clutter. A figure with high detail and quality can still be understated, GW's approach is to clutter a figure with baubles and trinkets seemingly in a lack of imagination as to what else should be there.

GW seem to be going all plastic, which is just as well because their Finecast is dreadful. I refuse to touch the stuff because of the quality. Other miniature companies offer actual resin products for less than GW's not-quite-resin Finecast. As products go it's an absolute disaster, charging more for a clearly inferior material. Even if GW brought back specialist games I know I wouldn't get into them because of this appalling stuff.

At the weekend I was looking at the new Warzone figures which seem to be made of a resin or Finecast material but are bubble free and look easier to clean up. Typical packs had five man-sized figures for £12-14. Can GW match that? Hell no, they regularly want £30-40 for boxes of 4-5 Finecast figures.

GW are in a bit of a fix because after 30 years and their current size they only have about £17m in the bank. They can't lower prices much because if the sales don't pick up immediately they will lose money fast. That money will disappear fast if they try to prop up their hundreds of retail stores.

 Throt wrote:

A very vocal minority don't and believe the prices are unreasonable. ]

I stopped there.

You haven't seen the latest financials that show, for a fact, a loss of sales, right? That's pretty hard evidence of the contrary. And it's not the price, it's the value. I said that last December and through January. Now it's come to light with higher prices and lower quality or volume. That's a measurable and objective decrease in value.

No spin necessary.

I see others have pointed out the same. Opinions are all fine and dandy. When facts are used to validate them, they becoming more than an opinion, but a line of reasoning or hypothesis. We have data saying something is amiss. GW is in the business of selling plastic widgets that are supposed to have value. They could be super cheap, but no one played the game, thus zero value to me outside of painting. They could be super expensive, but everyone plays,... and still have zero value to me because it's a poor product. Those are opinions and subject to my anecdotal state. Seeing the company start to trend downwards with a significant voiced opinion online and off, that I've experienced, suggest something is greatly wrong. I'm seeing 20+ year vets swing into Malifaux, Warmachine, and Infinity setting aside armies crafted by forged narratives (literally, one guy has an awesome Tau army where each Crisis Suit is a story that happened in a campaign... now it's up for sale).

So yea, go ahead and try to tell me something's not wrong and that it's "just an opinion." Opinions don't change facts. I suggest you read some of the larger threads and comprehend the data analysis that's been provided here and at Warseer. Or just wait for the probable conclusion of "The Future of Games Day and Games Workshop" series.

GW could cut their prices by 50% and their stuff would still be too expensive, if you asked me.

 Ugavine wrote:
In the last few weeks I've bought a Morkanaut, Stormclaw set, Flash Gitz, Ork Codex, Thraka supplement, Battlewagon and an Imperial Knight.

I'm on a low wage but can still afford these on top of mortgate, car, bills, etc. So I really don't see an issue with the prices as they are.

To be honest, for what goes into designing, production and material costs I'm amazed they're as cheap as they are.

Has anyone seen the pre-painted Dungeons & Dragons 6 figure set for £18.00? They are seriously ugly, badly painted with little detail. Give me GW figures over the likes of them any day.

How is this an argument?

In the last few weeks I've bought Nothing from GW

I'm on a medium wage and still think their prices are ridiculous on top of mortgate, car, bills, etc. So I still see an issue with the prices as they are.

To be honest, for what goes into designing, production and material costs of other kits like dreamforge, reaper and mantic I'm amazed they're as expensive as they are.

Has anyone seen the Eisenkern 20 man box set for 42$? They are seriously badass with lots of bits and detail and more than 60% less than GW. Dont give me GW figures over the likes of them any day

If you want to have fun with comparisons, look at the price of a lego mini, if you tried to make a army with lego's it would cost more than gw charges. Believe me I tried, I designed a lego battlewagon, with lego's designer, and when I selected to buy the pieces I was shocked.

But you can play the game for freeish. Get a bunch of bottlecaps which are roughly the same size as bases, put anything on them and you have an army. or look at the necron army made of sprews. You can and are allowed to make your own models, or buy the models. the choice & price is up to you.

Fun times are ahead and the future of in home 3D printers is going to be a huge change for all miniature games. They're getting cheaper and better all the time. To the guy who bought a 2T drive for under a hundred, I spent $300 on a 420 M, yes meg hard drive. don't ask what I spent on my 56.6 modem.

The initial investment to get into 40k might seem high, but when spread out over the time you play it's really not that much. I could buy the 'da goff guard' rule book & codex for $3kish, It should be 3 years til I need a new codex, and hopefully more than a year before I need a rule book. so it works out to $83 a month for a game I find enjoyable using gw models. As long as I enjoy my army, I never have to buy another model.

Can the price be cheaper? Oh heck yes, especially the books, more so for the supplements, and even more so the digital books.

A 50% price reduction is minimum to make it a serious product worth buying, 75% would be sensible.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Throt wrote:

A very vocal minority don't and believe the prices are unreasonable. ]

I stopped there.

You haven't seen the latest financials that show, for a fact, a loss of sales, right? That's pretty hard evidence of the contrary. And it's not the price, it's the value. I said that last December and through January. Now it's come to light with higher prices and lower quality or volume. That's a measurable and objective decrease in value.

No spin necessary.

Choosing to stop without reading or addressing points does help confirm your own bias.

When you read the financials you have seen the closing of retail stores and troubles they have given independent retailers in North America right?
Their loss in sales has mostly to do with being beholden to shareholders, poor business decisions etc. These are different topics.
You are correct about the disparity with objective value.
All companies make their profits by markups from the objective value of their product. Soda, French fries, computer cables, cell phones, tennis shoes (a pair of Nike shoes cost avg of $5 to make yet sells for over $100) the list goes on..
The objective value has remained mostly the same for several years. With the exception of their change to finecast. I.E. plastic model kits rule books etc.
The only price increases for 2013 were in hobby supplies..
The idea that a majority of their decline in sales is based on their prices is a fallacy.
It is the subjective value that drives a companies prices. And people are still willing to pay it.
No, not everyone but enough.

guys everyone needs to remember, the argument cant be about bugging ferrari or goping to posh restaurant (if you consider GW to be posh that is). Its besides the point - we dont all go to the home business to buy the item for top dollar because it already can be found (the exact same thing) for 30% cheaper from another business.

I can find a ferrari being sold elsewhere for cheaper the same model exactly and i can go eat the same food at a restaurant which again is cheaper.

How does dark sphere charge so low and still be happy with their profits. I dont believe its because there are more mouths to feed at GW. My belief its just poorly run. You cant have a small company under cutting the main HQ of which is GW and still have a smile on their faces. Its because i believe these companies are trying to give their customers the same product for less and what does this result in - the customer coming back to shop with them again and again so overall the profit GW would of made from me would of been less because i would of not bought as much from them. This is the clever tactic which is at play here. Customers will buy more at a cheaper rate and that is the fact here. No one is settling for something less than a ferrari because were talking about the same item.

The question is why are they not upset that companies like dark sphere etc are under cutting them

 Throt wrote:

Choosing to stop without reading or addressing points does help confirm your own bias.

Facts are not confirmation bias. Please provide data that is contrary to our statements: The sales of Games Workshop product have gone down in direct occurrence to the largest push of product release at the highest prices to date. And no, the books have certainly gone down in value just from a grammatical and fluff stand point, let alone that actual rules inside. The plastic kits have gone down in dramatic value, such as the Eldar Dire Avengers or the Stormus Trooperus box that's actually a massive cost increase on the metals they replace.

If what you are trying to say based off some sort of reasonable fact, please present it now. Otherwise, I think you're the one with confirmation bias.

PS: Also, a strong knock-off market suggest you've priced yourself above and beyond what the market will bear regardless if you're profitable. And the knock-off market for GW has exploded over the past year. That's another data point, carry on.

I don't think "enough" means "falling sales", though. But that's just me.

Also, they may not be increasing the prices but look at the prices of the new releases and compare them to the old ones. A single pose plastic SM Captain/Librarian is 25 euros. A single pose plastic Fantasy model (Necromancer/Wight King/Cairn Wraith etc.) is 11 euros. That's more than double. GW is still increasing prices, only in a different way.

 TheKbob wrote:


I see others have pointed out the same. Opinions are all fine and dandy. When facts are used to validate them, they becoming more than an opinion, but a line of reasoning or hypothesis. We have data saying something is amiss. GW is in the business of selling plastic widgets that are supposed to have value. They could be super cheap, but no one played the game, thus zero value to me outside of painting. They could be super expensive, but everyone plays,... and still have zero value to me because it's a poor product. Those are opinions and subject to my anecdotal state. Seeing the company start to trend downwards with a significant voiced opinion online and off, that I've experienced, suggest something is greatly wrong. I'm seeing 20+ year vets swing into Malifaux, Warmachine, and Infinity setting aside armies crafted by forged narratives (literally, one guy has an awesome Tau army where each Crisis Suit is a story that happened in a campaign... now it's up for sale).

So yea, go ahead and try to tell me something's not wrong and that it's "just an opinion." Opinions don't change facts. I suggest you read some of the larger threads and comprehend the data analysis that's been provided here and at Warseer. Or just wait for the probable conclusion of "The Future of Games Day and Games Workshop" series.

Continuing after your edit..

That is the point. What GW prices should be is opinion. Nothing more. Obviously there are still people who are of the opinion that the price point is fine. And whichever way you lean is fine, that is up to the individual. Read the subjective theory of value.
These sort of discussions don't go anywhere because they are solely opinion. Yet like I said for some reason I like to dive into them....go figure.
I have read many of the blogs here and on Warseer. I don't have the time nor the desire to read them all because most of them have a number of people full of angst towards a company that they believe to be so terrible in so many ways, yet they continue to spend their time on threads devoted to the topic. Proceeding to tell everyone how bad it is, rather than spending their time elsewhere. It baffles me. I jump in on occasion then fade away into the night when I tire of discussing differences in opinion.
.
Here and Warseer have a number of people with such angst who believe themselves representative of the majority. Yet google comes up with over 1.2 million 40k blogs. This in itself shows that there are a large number of people that enjoy the hobby. There are many sites with people who have many great ideas, things to say etc. Even here on Dakka there are over thousands of users and double the visitors.
Do some wish it was cheaper, of course they do, but that's like asking do you want a hundred dollars or $1000. There are still a majority that are willing to save or just buy the products. If the price was the driver GW wouldn't have made it through it's 25% stock drop.

Opinions don't change facts. But they have the ability to cause people to come to false conclusions because people like yourself, with your own admission, will 'stop there' once they believe their point is made.
I haven't said that there is nothing wrong, I have said that the pricing is not a driver in GW's problems
The data analysis does show some disturbing trends within the company mostly due to poor executive decisions and probably some large problems with IP protection, real or imagined. Which is more executive or advisory errors. Problems with being beholden to shareholders etc.
Games Day itself has far more to do with operational errors and poor decisions than pricing. If you look at the lines for the events just to buy product, you can see that people are willing to spend. The problems with these events is far beyond pricing. It is part of GW failings. But these are all different topic.
Your own quoted post here shows how the idea of subjective value works and is a prime example of what I have said. You seem to dislike GW product and find no value and are glad to see it failing. Applauding those that are jumping ship..yet here you are...it baffles me. But that too is off topic.
These topics go on, because people like myself discuss them and drift off topic. Really the posts should all be short like this...

I think GW prices are fine.
I would like them to be cheaper because then I could buy more but hey it's a hobby I buy what I can when I can..
I think they should be 20% less
I would appreciate a few more Christmas deals or a new army deal like buy x new items and get x small item free
etc....
IT is no more right or wrong than any other answer to the question.

 Throt wrote:
But they have the ability to cause people to come to false conclusions because people like yourself, with your own admission, will 'stop there' once they believe their point is made.

Personally, I "stop there" when I realize a persons perception of the situation is so warped that further discussion is pointless.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Throt wrote:

Choosing to stop without reading or addressing points does help confirm your own bias.

Facts are not confirmation bias. Please provide data that is contrary to our statements: The sales of Games Workshop product have gone down in direct occurrence to the largest push of product release at the highest prices to date. And no, the books have certainly gone down in value just from a grammatical and fluff stand point, let alone that actual rules inside. The plastic kits have gone down in dramatic value, such as the Eldar Dire Avengers or the Stormus Trooperus box that's actually a massive cost increase on the metals they replace.

If what you are trying to say based off some sort of reasonable fact, please present it now. Otherwise, I think you're the one with confirmation bias.

PS: Also, a strong knock-off market suggest you've priced yourself above and beyond what the market will bear regardless if you're profitable. And the knock-off market for GW has exploded over the past year. That's another data point, carry on.

I have listed many facts.
No one has shown any evidence that price is a driver in GW loss in sales.
Some have stated their opinion that the prices are too high for them and that is fine. Some are also confused between objective and subjective value.
I have not said GW doesn't have issues, structurally or financially. I have said there is no evidence that Price point is a major player in these problems.
A strong knock off market shows that items have a strong desirability. Counterfeiting has to do with profitability and desire. If demand is high and the counterfeiter can make a profit on the items then they may potentially try it. Counterfeiters have even moved to medicines. Tthey make cheap knock off disney toys in dollar stores..all for profit. The price is less relevant and not a significant driver because if there is no desire no one will buy it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yonan wrote:

 Throt wrote:
But they have the ability to cause people to come to false conclusions because people like yourself, with your own admission, will 'stop there' once they believe their point is made.

Personally, I "stop there" when I realize a persons perception of the situation is so warped that further discussion is pointless.

And you are entitled to your opinion.

 Throt wrote:
The fact that fine dining exists and GW is still selling product at their price point shows that many still see a value in the items.
You have in your own admissions shown that GW prices are what they should be.

I certainly admit that some people are willing to pay the prices, but then some people are willing to pay anything.

For me personally the prices are wrong because It is my belief that plastic miniatures cost pennies to manufacture, and GW marks the price up by thousands of percent. This belief is based largely on the cost of historical miniatures such as Victrix, which are similar to GW miniatures in terms of size, quality and modularity. But for the price of 10 Space Marines, you can buy a box of 48 Romans. So even though I can afford GW, I find their prices somewhat insulting, which is why I don't do any business with GW. But of course this is an entirely private matter concerning only me and how I wish to spend my money. It may be subjective, or without any discernible rhyme or reason at all.

However GWs sales figures are not subjective. They are down (again). Growth is down, share price is also down. So to turn around and say "the prices are what they should be" is just obtuse. Interestingly, Ferrari's car sales were also down last year, but that's okay because Ferrari make most of their money from merchandising (baseball caps etc...), as Gucci does from sunglasses. The overpriced cars and suits are really just an elaborate advertizing ploy to promote their elite image and sell their more affordable products. And so last year Ferrari boasted record profits. GW by comparison have just taken their main source of income and made it too expensive, and now predictably fewer people buy it... Genius!

With regards to people continuing to see value in things. That is actually quite unclear. There are plenty of scams and confidence tricks which are still popular and may have been so for thousands of years. Even though they have zero value to the "customer", there are always plenty of new people who haven't seen them yet and will fall for the scam at least once. This could easily be the case with lots of fine dinning places. People get sucked in by the glamor of the elite establishment, go there once, realize it sucked and just never go back, but they still have your money. As I understand it (from Dakka) GW make a lot of money from newcomers to the hobby, who will splash out on rules, dex, army boxes etc... before they become disenchanted with the company. Just because people are giving them money doesn't automatically mean they are satisfied customers.

I don't think GW's falling sales figures are necessarily related to their price point.

They might be, but we will never know as GW don't conduct Market Research and AFAIK we don't have an indicator of footfall either?

I think the biggest factor affecting GW sales at the moment is their rapid decline in Market Share.

How many kick starters have players invested in recently? How many new games are there coming out?

I can think of half a dozen fairly big new games that have come out that are slowly chipping away at GW's Market Share, and also some existing systems that seem to be gaining traction over the last 12 months.

From a UK centric point of view these would be X-Wing, which is only going to get bigger over the next couple of years.

Infinity, might be London centric but seems to be doing very well and i think will also increase in market share when Ice storm starter set gets released.

Zombicide, Dead Zone etc etc.

This is a niche luxury market and for a long time GW dominated the market because as a large established company they were one of the few games developers that could afford to invest in new products.

I don't think (and this is a personal opinion) that 3-D printing is any threat to GW, but I believe the kick starter phenomenon is and I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in Kirby's pre-amble.

Small companies with good ideas can now crowd source large sums of money that a couple of years ago would have been unavailable to them and can now produce quality boxed sets that can now go up against the bigger companies.

GW still believes it is "The Hobby" TM, but it really isn't.

It now has some big competitors in the market place and thanks to this wonderful thing called the internet players have so much more choice available to them.

I still don't believe GW are prices are that much over priced but i think they need to realise they need to win back customers and start trying to compete with other games.

And if I'm honest I don't think lowering their prices would save them. They need to realise that the reason a large percentage of people buy their products is to play games with them, but right now their games just aren't up to scratch.

Most of my gaming group haven's stopped playing 40k for example because it's too expensive, it's because the rules aren't that great....

 Throt wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:


No, I don't bug Ferrari about their prices. Know why? Because they're a legitimate prestige brand who are genuinely amongst the best at what they do, making high performance, small production volume, highly advanced cars, by a significant margin. Just as I wouldn't have a problem paying £000 to a sculptor to make me a range of bespoke minis, should I have that sort of cash on hand. Games Workshop is not Ferrari, they are a mainstream brand, perhaps not Ford, maybe BMW if one were feeling generous, who think it is sufficient to act like a premium brand and charge like a premium brand, but fail to grasp they aren't selling a premium product.

You of course are entitled to your opinion, but you don't think that GW is the prestige brand of the niche market of table top wargaming? Wargaming is not mainstream.

Nope, not even close. Mierce and Kingdom Death are both producing a much much more appropriate product to be considered "prestige" (low volume, using top creative talent, high price, high quality) GW is a prestige brand in the same way as Walmart is.

GW is years ahead of the majority of their competitors in almost every aspect.

Citation needed. The Perrys and Dreamforge Games are producing models, in plastic, that are of comparable quality, substantially better pricing and technically greater sophistication than anything I've seen from GW that I can recall.