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Does 40k really need GW to survive? It seems to me that 40k is bigger than Games Workshop. Perhaps GW going under would be the best thing to happen to 40k in a long time. It would certainly continue to exist, and chances are it would be under more competent management. I cant speak for everyone here, but I feel the same way about GW as they do all of us: couldnt care less. The game will live on, let GW burn.

We're really in a holding pattern for now. All we can do is watch the stream of new releases as they segment harder and harder; pushing more day one purchases they can get along with limited editions upon limited editions. Eventually, even the most stalwart of buyers hobby enthusiasts will either grow wise or run out of discretionary funds. The new wolf release has 2 LEs and one of them appears to have significant rules in it to make is almost worth purchase. A few hardcovers, some quick coins, and net some more revenue off already created content.

I'm sure the Painting Buddha gent, Mr. Michael, will put out one more address as he seems to be growing weary of the subject matter, as well. There's not much more to say, but watching.

For many of us who have sold off, it would take not just lower prices, but better product value including rules and community management. Putting a hot skewer in the "blame the player" mentality that's poison to any game and wrangle back in their sprawl. But the past few pages have been people waffling on the thought it'd ever happen.

Supposedly something big comes our way next month. Will it be 9E Fantasy? A skirmish game? Dreadfleet: Dread to Rights? Who knows... but it's going to have to come with a commitment from the company to do the community right. And that seems like there's no price tag on that.

 Vermis wrote:
For fantasy, you've got the likes of WF's plastic orcs and AoW's dwarfs among others, and Mantic. Limited, iffy ranges for the first lot and a... borked range, for the latter.
Talk about dropping the ball... It's frustratingly ironic that the two biggest choices are the generally good quality and terrible prices of GW, or the great prices and generally funky quality of Mantic. And I would much rather build an army with GW's high elves, skaven, or beastmen, than Mantic's elves, Black Tree Design's vermen, or Foundry's blood gorged on the one hand*; or Tre Manor's metal elves on the other. They'd be the best compromise or balance between quality+style and cheap production - if only the retail cost wasn't so money-grubbing!

Slightly off topic, but Shieldwolf miniatures has a range of good plastic Mountain Orcs.

Point is if GW doesn't hurry, even their advantage of having a good fantasy range (that could be cheap if you want to build an army) that you mentioned will be chipped away.

I so want a cheap Elven army, but no ranges out there tickle my fancy. The GW Wood Elves/High Elves would almost do the trick design-wise, but I'm not a fan of heroic proportion nowadays. Damn Infinity spoiled me.

This was glorious. A glorious read. Glorious Numbers. Glorious delusions by the execs. I am basking in GW's miserable state, happy that they're finally facing some consequences for their actions.

But this will change nothing, do not fool yourselves. They will hunker down, get more bitter, get more vindictive, more secretive, push more releases, raise more prices, remove more content. They don't know what they're doing wrong, besides that internet trolls are ruining everything apparently.

By this time next year I expect WD to be split into 6 separate parts, all with pretty pictures of 9th Edition.

And eventually GW will crash and burn, and then 40k can get picked up by adults who know what they're doing, who use a combination of modern business strategy, customer interaction, IP expansion, and sensible management to do new, exciting things with 40k.

 Harriticus wrote:

And eventually GW will crash and burn, and then 40k can get picked up by adults who know what they're doing, who use a combination of modern business strategy, customer interaction, IP expansion, and sensible management to do new, exciting things with 40k.

You can but hope.

Chances are equally good that the IP will end up with people far far worse.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:

And eventually GW will crash and burn, and then 40k can get picked up by adults who know what they're doing, who use a combination of modern business strategy, customer interaction, IP expansion, and sensible management to do new, exciting things with 40k.

You can but hope.

Chances are equally good that the IP will end up with people far far worse.

I know it seems like I'm setting myself up to be wrong, but there really isn't anybody out there that could be worse than GW.

I don't know how it could get worse from a management level. You have legitimate competitors now, who can basically completely undercut you to the point where relative quality shouldn't be of concern. Why they don't already kind of boggles the mind, but seriously. You have a company that is being run like the transcontinental railroad at the beginning of the 1900's. Somebody who has the interest and capital in buying 40k HAS to have the foresight to know what the potential reality is. GW is absolutely up the creek without a paddle judging from this report.

Depends what you mean by "worse". For example EA buying the 40K IP would most likely shut down all the miniatures side completely as it's not their core business and just use the IP in computer gaming. That would kill 40K the miniatures game pretty quickly.

So GW has been maintaining its numbers the past few uears via cannibalization of company holdings.

I feel somewhat vindicated now. A couple years back I pointed out that GW seemed to be artificially bolstering its numbers by selling off their material assets and holdings.
The "everything is fine crowd" was very dismissive at the time.

I still cant believe that GW has reduced from, "What was it? 4, 5 or 7 factories?" down to just one. (*Note that dome of the factories were owned by others and were contracted for the production)

Also can't believe that some are calling the crippling of their ability to expand production as a good thing business wise.

Seems like the entire model is one where they over-reacted to the 2008 financial crisis. That instead of taking a bit of a stock hit and setting up for long term survival, they went into a self destructive hack, slash and burn in order to maintain numbers that we not realistic for the economy at the time.

Later,
ff

They wouldn't be stupid enough to not license out the mini's games to someone else though. They are still worth something. Just think how good 40K would be if any of the old designers took the helm again without having to answer to Kirbys board.

[Edit - Never mind]

Herzlos wrote:
They wouldn't be stupid enough to not license out the mini's games to someone else though. They are still worth something. Just think how good 40K would be if any of the old designers took the helm again without having to answer to Kirbys board.

The ones that have all left or the ones remaining?

I meant the ones that were responsible for the games in the first place and had already left and were running their own companies (RickP, Allesio, etc). But I could still see an improvement if the current team took it over; as I think a lot of the problems aren't in the design team but the upper managements restrictions on the design team.

Yo Australians! Did anyone spot this back in May?

http://registers.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1178319/fromItemId/776499

Basically if you're using any Oz internet shops without a physical store front, GW is coming for them.

Herzlos wrote:
I meant the ones that were responsible for the games in the first place and had already left and were running their own companies (RickP, Allesio, etc). But I could still see an improvement if the current team took it over; as I think a lot of the problems aren't in the design team but the upper managements restrictions on the design team.

I highly doubt that upper management has any input in the actual development of the rules themselves... All the actually talented designers have left already, all that remain are pretty much talentless hacks that couldn't design a decent shoots and ladders game to save their lives.

From my perspective its sad to see the decline, local firm done good and all that, if they do go down the pan family members will be out of a job as will a lot of friends and the City of Nottingham will be worse off.

I am still hoping they make it out of this hole, i have a special fondness for GW, they never really did anything to upset me, apart from raise prices, its a real shame that Kirby got involved too, he sounds like one of the muppets.

I won't shed a tear for GW, as long as someone picks up the 40K IP and uses it properly.

Bring the prices down to reasonable levels, invest in earning back the community's goodwill - and hang Kirby out to dry, if necessary.

VanHallan wrote:
Somebody who has the interest and capital in buying 40k HAS to have the foresight to know what the potential reality is. GW is absolutely up the creek without a paddle judging from this report.

Hmmm, take over, money, public listing....sounds like a job for T Kirby to me..........


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Herzlos wrote:
They wouldn't be stupid enough to not license out the mini's games to someone else though. They are still worth something. Just think how good 40K would be if any of the old designers took the helm again without having to answer to Kirbys board.

I don't think the board forces the designers to make poorly written rules.....

Old or current there will still be emphasis based on forging a narrative at the expense of you know, consistency and legibility.

 Baragash wrote:
Basically if you're using any Oz internet shops without a physical store front, GW is coming for them.

There haven't been any of those since the mid-'90s, aside from the occasional one who managed to do a back-door deal with an existing trade account holder. Since then, GW have had a clause in their trade account contract specifying that the retailer had to have a physical store.

The new part in the ACCC submission (as far as I can tell) is the 'value added pricing' model, which would allow them to offer less of a trade discount to accounts they feel aren't putting enough effort into selling GW's product in the way GW considers appropriate.

Disregarding Kirby's latest proof of incompetence, GW seems to suffer from classic BBS (big boy syndrome). They see that there are no other sharks (companies doing their volume of revenue) in their particular waters (tabletop wargaming) and feel invincible. So they completely ignore the school of piranha (Corvus Belli, Spartan Games, Wyrd Miniatures, Fantasy Flight Games, Mantic, Warlord Games, et. al), that are all taking a series of smaller bites of their revenues but the effect is the same - death of the current shark.

I once worked for a very large and well-known brand (second only to Coca-Cola once) and it was amazing how senior management viewed so many companies as "not our competitors" strictly from the standpoint that not a single one did the revenues of their company. They completely ignored that their were about two dozen competitors that had sprung up and were each nipping a little bit of their revenue and customer base away each year. GW is suffering from the same fate (in addition to having some unique delusions all to themselves).

Their threat is the piranha today, not another shark. But they are too busy looking at being the lone shark and so they completely ignore the little piranha.

This report absolutely surprises no on that was compiling scenarios based on observable trends over the last six months. Take that forward over the next six, when there are already observable trends (Dystopian Wars outselling 40k 7th at a ratio of 7 to 1. Corvus Belli Operation:Firestorm pre-orders outselling 7th edition release by a factor of 2 to 1 already and still having three more weeks of pre-orders to go), and it should surprise no one that the next period financials is going to make the current ones look good by comparison.

I wonder why it is they don't just cut down the price of the models in very large bundles only, like battleforces, in order to gain more interest from non players.

I know quite a few people that are on the fence about the game simply because there is no gateway into it that is cheap.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Old or current there will still be emphasis based on forging a narrative at the expense of you know, consistency and legibility.

None of the new systems written by the old guard have the same problems as GW books. Hail Caesar is a bit Narrativey (being that it's actually designed as a beer and pretsel game - with appropriate complexity), but it's still much better written than WHFB. So the problem isn't with the designers themselves.

I fully expect people to laugh at me, but I can name one thing that will save GW for the next 2-3 years:

BRETTONIANS

We've waiting, what, 10 years? 10 hard years for a new army book and miniatures. We looked at space wolves and thought - why are you getting a separate army book just for having pointy teeth.
We looked at Dark angels and thought - why are you getting a separate army book just for being moody. We looked at Blood angels...you get the picture.

We Brettonian players are a loyal bunch, and when they get released, they will fly off the shelves, for the simple reason that it'll be another 10 years before we see them again

Short-term, we will save GW

Enjoy your murderswords brettonian!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I fully expect people to laugh at me, but I can name one thing that will save GW for the next 2-3 years:

BRETTONIANS

We've waiting, what, 10 years? 10 hard years for a new army book and miniatures. We looked at space wolves and thought - why are you getting a separate army book just for having pointy teeth.
We looked at Dark angels and thought - why are you getting a separate army book just for being moody. We looked at Blood angels...you get the picture.

We Brettonian players are a loyal bunch, and when they get released, they will fly off the shelves, for the simple reason that it'll be another 10 years before we see them again

Short-term, we will save GW

I'll see your Brettonians and raise you a Dark Eldar.

Anybody know if the DE span a good profit when they were released? Baring in mind it was during the height of 5th, so a pinch of salt may be required here.

If someone bought their IP terrible things could happen like gungans. There could also be crossovers that don't make sense like 40k meets Yor, the Hunter from the Future. Worst yet, another greedy company could by the IP. It would be best if the IP was not picked up commercially.

How would we notice?

Would bizarre crossovers be any worse than a Murderbeast with his Murderclaws and Murderlust?

From the planet Omnicide.

Murderface Murderface Murderface.

 Baragash wrote:
Yo Australians! Did anyone spot this back in May?

http://registers.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1178319/fromItemId/776499

Basically if you're using any Oz internet shops without a physical store front, GW is coming for them.

It's been doing the rounds. Very unlikely it'll happen - this is a probing check to see if they're allowed to. They're basically asking our anti competitive watchdog if they can be anti competitive by restricting sales channels outside of themselves. Chances of it being allowed are pretty slim.

The hilarious part is where they ask the ACCC to keep it on the low low by not making it public record. By law it has to be public record. Great legal fact checking right there!

 Blacksails wrote:
From the planet Omnicide.

Murderface Murderface Murderface.

Come on, pretend you're 12 years old. Wouldn't you want MURDERFANG, from OMNICIDE, and murder things with MURDERCLAWS and MURDERLUST?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Baragash wrote:
Yo Australians! Did anyone spot this back in May?

http://registers.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1178319/fromItemId/776499

Basically if you're using any Oz internet shops without a physical store front, GW is coming for them.

It's been doing the rounds. Very unlikely it'll happen - this is a probing check to see if they're allowed to. They're basically asking our anti competitive watchdog if they can be anti competitive by restricting sales channels outside of themselves. Chances of it being allowed are pretty slim.

Unlike the US where it was like "Anti-competitive behavior? No problemo!" and now you have to get secret spreadsheets from the suppliers and call/email them to place orders.