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2014/08/06 20:15:31
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Eggs wrote: They couldn't have a more polar opposite marketing strategy than apple?!
Apple advertise pretty much everything they make, on prime time tv, in cinemas, printed media. They spend a fortune on advertising.
How is gw in any way like that?
"Prestige" attitude, high prices compared to the rest of the market, a certain fondness for throwing litigation around. All of the bad traits with none of the good ones.
Agreed.
It's like the company mantra is "be like Apple" but nobody has grasped the central concepts of what would make that a worthwhile exercise.
See, Apple can have the prestige attitude because its fething Apple, they've actually had a positive influence on the future of the technology. GW on the other hand is like a slimy used Geo salesman, will never go beyond its station but still think their the best. No wonder the white knights seem so out of touch with reality, they are following the companies attitude to the letter.
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
2014/08/06 20:42:40
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Eggs wrote: I'm not going to get into an apple argument, because some folks love em, and some folks love to hate em, but I think any comparison of apple and gw is downright bonkers.
One makes fairly high end technology, the other makes plastic models. One advertises, the other doesn't. One is in the top twenty biggest companies in the world. The other is a tiny, niche company worth less than the other makes in a couple of days. One has more than double the cash the us government has. The other probably has less cash than North Korea. Not seeing the connection myself.
That's because we're (or certainly I'm) not making a comparison between the companies, more suggesting that GW has aspirations to be viewed as/operate as Apple does.
Which, in many ways, is a sensible thing, why not aspire to imitate what is, like it or not, one of the most successful commercial operations on the planet with a well entrenched, rabid fan base? I can see why that appeals, I can even see why Kirby might even consider GW "the Apple of wargaming" if I equip my Goggles Of Delusions Of Grandeur™.
The issue is, they've taken all the bad stuff (such as aggressive litigious practices, high pricing, invalidation of serviceable product with a rapid release schedule) without any of the good (ok, struggling to think of good stuff Apple do, but I'm sure there is some - I do like their stuff, it's just too expensive for what it is. Huh, sound familiar?)
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
That's because we're (or certainly I'm) not making a comparison between the companies, more suggesting that GW has aspirations to be viewed as/operate as Apple does.
Which, in many ways, is a sensible thing, why not aspire to imitate what is, like it or not, one of the most successful commercial operations on the planet with a well entrenched, rabid fan base? I can see why that appeals, I can even see why Kirby might even consider GW "the Apple of wargaming" if I equip my Goggles Of Delusions Of Grandeur™.
The issue is, they've taken all the bad stuff (such as aggressive litigious practices, high pricing, invalidation of serviceable product with a rapid release schedule) without any of the good (ok, struggling to think of good stuff Apple do, but I'm sure there is some - I do like their stuff, it's just too expensive for what it is. Huh, sound familiar?)
LOL, well at least there we have common ground. Apple and GW also have in common that both promote their product as The Hobby™, where other companies don't exist and customers are only supposed to use Official™ product with Official™ accessories bought from Official™ company stores. Well, of course most other companies do that too, I mean who doesn't like revenue from gullible customers who buy everything with The Logo on it, but both Apple and GW take that especially far.
I won't say that GW needs someone like Steve Jobs, but clearly they are dying for someone new, with actual influence and not just a sock puppet for Kirby and other old Board members, to shake things up a bit and bring some new perspective.
Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker!
2014/08/06 21:15:48
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
That's because we're (or certainly I'm) not making a comparison between the companies, more suggesting that GW has aspirations to be viewed as/operate as Apple does.
Which, in many ways, is a sensible thing, why not aspire to imitate what is, like it or not, one of the most successful commercial operations on the planet with a well entrenched, rabid fan base? I can see why that appeals, I can even see why Kirby might even consider GW "the Apple of wargaming" if I equip my Goggles Of Delusions Of Grandeur™.
The issue is, they've taken all the bad stuff (such as aggressive litigious practices, high pricing, invalidation of serviceable product with a rapid release schedule) without any of the good (ok, struggling to think of good stuff Apple do, but I'm sure there is some - I do like their stuff, it's just too expensive for what it is. Huh, sound familiar?)
LOL, well at least there we have common ground. Apple and GW also have in common that both promote their product as The Hobby™, where other companies don't exist and customers are only supposed to use Official™ product with Official™ accessories bought from Official™ company stores. Well, of course most other companies do that too, I mean who doesn't like revenue from gullible customers who buy everything with The Logo on it, but both Apple and GW take that especially far.
I won't say that GW needs someone like Steve Jobs, but clearly they are dying for someone new, with actual influence and not just a sock puppet for Kirby and other old Board members, to shake things up a bit and bring some new perspective.
Hey, I'll argue with you when I disagree with you, I'll agree with you when I do, I don't hold grudges.
Their own chain of retail stores...
Blimey, the more you look the more comparisons you can find.
While acknowledging Eggs' point that the companies are ultimately quite dissimilar, one has to wonder if these little off-the-cuff references Kirby keeps making are actually symptomatic of a much deeper aspiration on his part....
EDIT
If Redshirts get relabelled something daft and over the top in the next year, I'd call it confirmed. Look out for a GW "Primarch" or some similar nonsense coming to a store near you soon!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/06 21:18:40
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
My dissatisfaction at the moment is coming from a slightly different angle than that which has been discussed thus far in the thread I think.
I had a slight experience with WFB and W40k as a child by happening by a store with a custom-made game table with a game going on somewhere in Seattle (I cannot remember if it was a GW store or an independent, but it was in the 90's, and it was nearby a children's ballet school.)
However, I did not officially attempt to enter the hobby until I was in college in 2011, when my friends took me over to a local hobby store that had just opened up. I fell immediately in love with the setting of Warhammer 40k, and though I didn't have much money at the time, I invested in a Catachan Battle Box (the one with the Sentinels in it); I wanted to play imperial guard, because I wanted to have a lot of troops and it would be cool when people attacked me to imagine tons of my guys getting wiped out at a time.
Unfortunately, after I had examined the current ruleset more closely (I believe it was 5th edition), I realized that to be able to play the kind of army I wanted to play was going to require a lot more money than I was willing to spend for those kinds of numbers (it was to my disbelief at the time, naive as I was to GW's attitude, that I couldn't find any bulk discounts to help ease the pain of my desire to field platoons).
So as soon as I had entered the game-side of the hobby, I left. But I still was infatuated with Warhammer 40k, and The Black Library at the time was more than willing to provide great pricing for its stories; to date I have purchased all Dan Abnett Omnibuses and have the complete Horus heresy Collection up to Unremembered Empire which just arrived in the mail today.
However, I have noticed a shocking speed at which some of the later titles are becoming out of print; unless I wish to purchase them as eBooks (which I don't), I'd have to go through the secondary market to get "Blood Pact", "Sabbat Worlds", and "Salvation's Reach", as well as a few of the Omnibuses like Ciaphas Cain. The secondary market is less than appealing, since OOP Black Library Titles on Amazon are severely high-priced. Other publishing companies have no problem maintaining their catalogs of older books for decades or more; I can still purchase new Book 1 of the 1996 run of Animorphs from Scholastic for less than $5, but Black Library can't keep a Dan Abnett Gaunt's Ghost novel in print for 3 years?
The news regarding upcoming books and reprints is also lacking for BL; when is The Victory omnibus scheduled to come out? What books are they planning to add to Print on Demand or do another printing of next? When is Penitent coming out? Quite a few of these questions would help win them my sales, as it would let me know whether to bother waiting to buy the books from them, or whether I should just take the pain and buy the books used. But they are quite opaque as far as their website is concerned.
If I were to make a decision that would help improve revenue slightly for BL, and therefore GW, I would have them expand their Print-On-Demand selection; they could charge a good price and still be able to undercut the prices being listed on places like Amazon for their works, price markups which they see no part of.
So far as I have been able to garner, they only have 14 Print-on-Demand books, and none of them from their most popular lines (heck, one of them is even "Pawns of Chaos", which was the one BL book I regretted purchasing, it was so bad)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/06 22:18:28
2014/08/06 21:49:54
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Saldiven wrote:I think the biggest reason that the RPG market is so much smaller is because every player doesn't need to purchase that much in order to play.
Also, some of the sales of the RPG segment get pushed into other segments. Pathfinder miniatures, for example are likely counted as miniatures. The new D&D miniatures Wizkids are making will likely also be a stand alone product.
In the d20 bubble, Wizards did their best to get players going as the primary buyers. Loot and the Lute, Complete Arcane, racial splat books, etc., were all about making each player want the products rather than just selling to GMs.
When wizards abandoned 3.x, Paizo realized it was about the GMs. They lead with their adventure paths as their main core of their business.
I think we'll see the 15 million of the RPG market increase with the new edition of D&D just hitting shelves now. Wizards seems to be going after a more casual RPGGMs than the Pathfinder die hards, so it'll be interesting to see if they bring anyone back into the hobby.
GW has some RPG based revenue in North America with their FFG license. But it's a pittance. In a market that's even smaller than miniature wargaming.
I think that the icv2 is probably fairly accurate in this market estimate.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
2014/08/06 21:51:21
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
My dissatisfaction at the moment is coming from a slightly different angle than that which has been discussed thus far in the thread I think.
I had a slight experience with WFB and W40k as a child by happening by a store with a custom-made game table with a game going on somewhere in Seattle when I was just a child (I cannot remember if it was a GW store or an independent, but it was in the 90's, and it was nearby a children's ballet school.)
However, I did not officially attempt to enter the hobby until I was in college in 2011, when my friends took me over to a local hobby store that had just opened up. I fell immediately in love with the setting of Warhammer 40k, and though I didn't have much money at the time, I invested in a Catachan Battle Box (the one with the Sentinels in it); I wanted to play imperial guard, because I wanted to have a lot of troops and it would be cool when people attacked me to imagine tons of my guys getting wiped out at a time.
Unfortunately, after I had examined the current ruleset more closely (I believe it was 5th edition), I realized that to be able to play the kind of army I wanted to play was going to require a lot more money than I was willing to spend for those kinds of numbers (it was to my disbelief at the time, naive as I was to GW's attitude, that I couldn't find any bulk discounts to help ease the pain of my desire to field platoons).
So as soon as I had entered the game-side of the hobby, I left. But I still was infatuated with Warhammer 40k, and The Black Library at the time was more than willing to provide great pricing for its stories; to date I have purchased all Dan Abnett Omnibuses and have the complete Horus heresy Collection up to Unremembered Empire which just arrived in the mail today.
However, I have noticed a shocking speed at which some of the later titles are becoming out of print; unless I wish to purchase them as eBooks (which I don't), I'd have to go through the secondary market to get "Blood Pact", "Sabbat Worlds", and "Salvation's Reach", as well as a few of the Omnibuses like Ciaphas Cain. The secondary market is less than appealing, since OOP Black Library Titles on Amazon are severely high-priced. Other publishing companies have no problem maintaining their catalogs of older books for decades or more; I can still purchase new Book 1 of the 1996 run of Animorphs from Scholastic for less than $5, but Black Library can't keep a Dan Abnett Gaunt's Ghost novel in print for 3 years?
The news regarding upcoming books and reprints is also lacking for BL; when is The Victory omnibus scheduled to come out? What books are they planning to add to Print on Demand or do another printing of next? When is Penitent coming out? Quite a few of these questions would help win them my sales, as it would let me know whether to bother waiting to buy the books from them, or whether I should just take the pain and buy the books used. But they are quite opaque as far as their website is concerned.
If I were to make a decision that would help improve revenue slightly for BL, and therefore GW, I would have them expand their Print-On-Demand selection; they could charge a good price and still be able to undercut the prices being listed on places like Amazon for their works, price markups which they see no part of.
So far as I have been able to garner, they only have 14 Print-on-Demand books, and none of them from their most popular lines (heck, one of them is even "Pawns of Chaos", which was the one BL book I regretted purchasing, it was so bad)
Agreed, for a goodly period of time both Black Library and Forgeworld could be held up as examples of the fact that not all hope was lost, that here, within the environs of GW themselves were little pockets of resistance that seemed to still be set on doing things the old fashioned way, the way those of us who remember consider how it used to be in the old days.
Then they devolved into a limited edition novella factory and a Space Marine conveyor (hyperbole, I do acknowledge this isn't the whole sum of what either division does) and it seemed to become evident that whatever is at the heart of what is killing GW had spread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/06 21:52:26
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
At first I was like "this report is obviously bogus when it says the whole size of the market for RPGs is smaller than the sales of one company in that market." But then I needed to remember that this is at retail and icv2 is concerned with retailers. The reason the RPG market has "shrunk" so much is that publishers largely now sell direct.
The D&D people at Wizards have also confirmed that their approach to revenue for the 5th edition of D&D is not to focus on a buy a book every month model where they fill shelves with books. They're going to have a much slower release rate and concentrate on accessory and branded products, many of which are licensed out to third party manufacturers.
I'd propose that the industry is actually larger as this literally is about retail. There's no way they can track me ordering directly from a manufacturer and cutting out retail entirely. And being outside of retail, it'd be outside the scope of this study. Their primary customer and area of concern is retail of comics, games and hobby products.
As a point of confirmation, the collectible card game numbers sound right given what Hasbro presented at the New York Toy Fair. They talked about massive growth outside of North America and the icv2 estimates for NA sound about right for Magic's revenue from Hasbro's investor relations stuff.
I think the icv2 study may be quite accurate and their estimates of market growth in past surveys might be as well.
GW really is shrinking in a market that's growing. We know they are failing in North America to a substantial degree while everything else appears to be booming here.
Yep - those numbers sort of go to support the accuracy of the survey.
RPGs are largely sold through book sellers as well (both online like Amazon and regular stores like Barnes & Nobles as well as digital releases). Miniatures are largely direct sale. Although there are maybe a half dozen lines any game store might carry of regular miniatures, and another 2 or 3 of prepaints like X-Wing and Clix...the plurality of miniatures are sold by online super stores (Noble Knight, The War Store, FRP) or direct from the manufacturer (Hasslefree, RAFM, Iron Winds, Zombiesmith, Old Glory, Eureka...).
To be honest - the $125 million for miniatures was a bit higher than I was expecting just based on how many companies I know of which are now doing the bulk of their sales direct. The market is much larger - but the market through traditional game and comic stores is dwindling in relation to the direct and online sales (though still growing...which says a lot about GW shrinking...).
Then they devolved into a limited edition novella factory and a Space Marine conveyor (hyperbole, I do acknowledge this isn't the whole sum of what either division does) and it seemed to become evident that whatever is at the heart of what is killing GW had spread.
Yes...they also do IG.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/06 22:39:45
2014/08/07 00:35:57
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
At first I was like "this report is obviously bogus when it says the whole size of the market for RPGs is smaller than the sales of one company in that market." But then I needed to remember that this is at retail and icv2 is concerned with retailers. The reason the RPG market has "shrunk" so much is that publishers largely now sell direct.
The D&D people at Wizards have also confirmed that their approach to revenue for the 5th edition of D&D is not to focus on a buy a book every month model where they fill shelves with books. They're going to have a much slower release rate and concentrate on accessory and branded products, many of which are licensed out to third party manufacturers.
I'd propose that the industry is actually larger as this literally is about retail. There's no way they can track me ordering directly from a manufacturer and cutting out retail entirely. And being outside of retail, it'd be outside the scope of this study. Their primary customer and area of concern is retail of comics, games and hobby products.
As a point of confirmation, the collectible card game numbers sound right given what Hasbro presented at the New York Toy Fair. They talked about massive growth outside of North America and the icv2 estimates for NA sound about right for Magic's revenue from Hasbro's investor relations stuff.
I think the icv2 study may be quite accurate and their estimates of market growth in past surveys might be as well.
GW really is shrinking in a market that's growing. We know they are failing in North America to a substantial degree while everything else appears to be booming here.
Yep - those numbers sort of go to support the accuracy of the survey.
RPGs are largely sold through book sellers as well (both online like Amazon and regular stores like Barnes & Nobles as well as digital releases). Miniatures are largely direct sale. Although there are maybe a half dozen lines any game store might carry of regular miniatures, and another 2 or 3 of prepaints like X-Wing and Clix...the plurality of miniatures are sold by online super stores (Noble Knight, The War Store, FRP) or direct from the manufacturer (Hasslefree, RAFM, Iron Winds, Zombiesmith, Old Glory, Eureka...).
To be honest - the $125 million for miniatures was a bit higher than I was expecting just based on how many companies I know of which are now doing the bulk of their sales direct. The market is much larger - but the market through traditional game and comic stores is dwindling in relation to the direct and online sales (though still growing...which says a lot about GW shrinking...).
And it is very easy to find folks that just plain would not believe ICv2 when they first started posting that Pathfinder had outstripped D&D 4e sales... going so far as to call the folks at ICv2 liars with a hidden agenda....
Then WotC created Essentials to try to recapture the market, only to announce that 5e was on the way a year later....
So, I am willing to accept ICv2's claims in regards to WH40K - they have been right before.
For my part... I had thought that Pathfinder outselling 4e was only a local phenomenon - that my area was just more discerning than the rest of the world.... Goodness, I was almost disappointed to discover that the same thing was happening everywhere....
I also have to say that at least WotC is trying to fix the problems that they had created with the botched campaign for 4e....
I do not know if D&D 5e can turn things around, and I have no real interest in it - but they have not offended me this time arond, and are trying to mend fences.
GW, by comparison, tend to pull down websites rather than admit that maybe, just maybe, they have put their foot in it.
The Auld Grump
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/07 00:36:51
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2014/08/07 00:48:18
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Some misshapen brick of plastic wolf gak is coming out for 40K.
I know who is getting my money.
Not to mention I could buy three YT-2400s for the price of ONE flying wolf brick.
Captain Killhammer McFighterson stared down at the surface of Earth from his high vantage point on the bridge of Starship Facemelter. Something ominous was looming on the surface. He could see a great shadow looming just underneath the waters of the Gulf of Mexico, slowly spreading northward. "That can't be good..." he muttered to himself while rubbing the super manly stubble on his chin with one hand. "But... on the other hand..." he looked at his shiny new bionic murder-arm. "This could be the perfect chance for that promotion." A perfect roundhouse kick slammed the ship's throttle into full gear. Soon orange jets of superheated plasma were visible from the space-windshield as Facemelter reentered the atmosphere at breakneck speed.
2014/08/07 01:09:39
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
TheAuldGrump wrote:And it is very easy to find folks that just plain would not believe ICv2 when they first started posting that Pathfinder had outstripped D&D 4e sales... going so far as to call the folks at ICv2 liars with a hidden agenda....
Then WotC created Essentials to try to recapture the market, only to announce that 5e was on the way a year later....
So, I am willing to accept ICv2's claims in regards to WH40K - they have been right before.
Technically the order of events was
Pathfinder takes #2 spot
Essentials gets released
Pathfinder takes #1 spot
People say it can't be true
Wizards announced the cancellation of all future 4E products
People admit ivc2 was right all along.
Your point totally stands though.
The thing to remember is that WotC had developed a good direct source of revenue. To this day they have a few million in revenue from their D&D Insider subscriptions for 4th edition stuff.
For my part... I had thought that Pathfinder outselling 4e was only a local phenomenon - that my area was just more discerning than the rest of the world.... Goodness, I was almost disappointed to discover that the same thing was happening everywhere....
I also have to say that at least WotC is trying to fix the problems that they had created with the botched campaign for 4e....
It's very similar to how we keep hearing about how GW is no longer the most played game in given people's circles.
I do not know if D&D 5e can turn things around, and I have no real interest in it - but they have not offended me this time arond, and are trying to mend fences.
GW, by comparison, tend to pull down websites rather than admit that maybe, just maybe, they have put their foot in it.
5e is solid. It's like a lighter version of 3rd mixed with AD&D ideas. I may not play it, but I think it's quite possible or likely that they'll retake the top spot. Albeit of a very small market.
GW, on the other hand, literally believes, at the highest level, that they don't need to concern themselves with what the market wants. 4e was a mistep for WotC because they thought they could tell everyone what they should want out of D&D. It didn't work, so they went back and asked. And did a ton of market research, public play testing and focus group work.
GW's product line is dwindling down to being just 40k and if they keep thinking that knowing what the market wants is not necessary, what will they do if their 40k plan stops working? If their customers continue to show them that they aren't interested in greater and greater numbers.
There were some interpretations of Kirby's preamble that it was actually a answering back to other board members that didn't recognize his genius. A polemic against concerns raised by his fellow board members.
For the sake of anyone who still enjoys 40k, I hope this is right. That the yes-man corporate culture isn't 100% absolute at GW. That if they can get a good new CEO, that even with Kirby still on board as chair, they can go in a new direction and start listening to the customers again and asking the market what it really wants.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
2014/08/07 02:16:55
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
TheAuldGrump wrote:And it is very easy to find folks that just plain would not believe ICv2 when they first started posting that Pathfinder had outstripped D&D 4e sales... going so far as to call the folks at ICv2 liars with a hidden agenda....
Then WotC created Essentials to try to recapture the market, only to announce that 5e was on the way a year later....
So, I am willing to accept ICv2's claims in regards to WH40K - they have been right before.
Technically the order of events was
Pathfinder takes #2 spot
Essentials gets released
Pathfinder takes #1 spot
People say it can't be true
Wizards announced the cancellation of all future 4E products
People admit ivc2 was right all along.
Your point totally stands though.
Though the folks at Paizo maintain that Pathfinder outstripped 4e much earlier - and in that... my local market seems to agree with. Mid to late 2010. (See if you can find the audio files for Aunt Lisa's Story Hour - a lot of fun to listen to.) *EDIT* Link!
That Essentials was a reaction to plummeting sales and losing marketshare. (For what it is worth, I had expected Essentials to do much better than it did.)
Locally... the returns on 4e were horrendous - with Border's returning three out of four cases that they had on the day of release - returning them to WotC six months later. (Returns are hated in the book trade - leading to remaindered books, damaged books, wasted time and expense. Returns were a big part of what killed TSR.)
Essentials was easier for bookstores, because they were paperbacks, rather than being returned the books could be stripped - the covers torn off and returned, rather than the entire book.
Mind you, there were still folks in denial about 4e in 2012....
The thing to remember is that WotC had developed a good direct source of revenue. To this day they have a few million in revenue from their D&D Insider subscriptions for 4th edition stuff.
Though it is worth mentioning that both WotC and Paizo are relying on subscription models - WotC with the Insider, Paizo with the print and PDF lines for Pathfinder.
And there are a lot of things to subscribe to for Pathfinder.
For my part... I had thought that Pathfinder outselling 4e was only a local phenomenon - that my area was just more discerning than the rest of the world.... Goodness, I was almost disappointed to discover that the same thing was happening everywhere....
I also have to say that at least WotC is trying to fix the problems that they had created with the botched campaign for 4e....
It's very similar to how we keep hearing about how GW is no longer the most played game in given people's circles.
I do not know if D&D 5e can turn things around, and I have no real interest in it - but they have not offended me this time around, and are trying to mend fences.
GW, by comparison, tend to pull down websites rather than admit that maybe, just maybe, they have put their foot in it.
5e is solid. It's like a lighter version of 3rd mixed with AD&D ideas. I may not play it, but I think it's quite possible or likely that they'll retake the top spot. Albeit of a very small market.
Yeah... instead of there being a 500 pound gorilla in the RPG industry there ended up being a 240 pound gorilla, a 220 pound gorilla, and enough monkeys as will fit in a large barrel.
WotC damaged the market a good deal - I suspect that Pathfinder and 4e put together were not as big as the 3.X/D20 market.
GW, on the other hand, literally believes, at the highest level, that they don't need to concern themselves with what the market wants. 4e was a mistep for WotC because they thought they could tell everyone what they should want out of D&D. It didn't work, so they went back and asked. And did a ton of market research, public play testing and focus group work.
And that, right there, is the reason that I have not given up all hope for WotC.
At least they have admitted that they made some big mistakes.
And I found it amusing that they stole a bolt from Paizo's quiver, and did a public playtest. They learned!
But the thing is, for me, that I do not like 5e as much as I do Pathfinder, or even 3.X.
On the flip side... conversion is a major selling point this time around - so folks will be able to buy Pathfinder adventures and use them with 5e.
Compare that with 4e, where WotC told folks not to bother converting, and to just start over from scratch.
GW's product line is dwindling down to being just 40k and if they keep thinking that knowing what the market wants is not necessary, what will they do if their 40k plan stops working? If their customers continue to show them that they aren't interested in greater and greater numbers.
There were some interpretations of Kirby's preamble that it was actually a answering back to other board members that didn't recognize his genius. A polemic against concerns raised by his fellow board members.
For the sake of anyone who still enjoys 40k, I hope this is right. That the yes-man corporate culture isn't 100% absolute at GW. That if they can get a good new CEO, that even with Kirby still on board as chair, they can go in a new direction and start listening to the customers again and asking the market what it really wants.
I seem to recall that White Dwarf had surveys, back in the 3e days.... GW had a tool for market research, and used it.
Now... not so much.
So, yeah, both WotC and GW have suffered from hubris - but WotC has realized this, and is trying to fix things - they are willing to admit that they need to fix things and regain the trust of their customers.
Realizing that there is a problem is the first step in mending it.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2014/08/07 03:06:24
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
WotC also isn't just D&D. It also isn't just WotC.
Even if they managed D&D so badly it was entirely dropped - the brand would still have enough legs that they could come in with a new team and reboot it from within the company.
GW on the other hand is a one trick pony...and the pony has a broken leg. If they can't turn things around, then the chances of Warhammer and 40K continuing on become much less likely. It could very easily go the way of any number of other games (defunct and only supported by old gamers) or end up in a holding company's portfolio of IP (like what happened with Mutant Chronicles).
In the UK - they probably have better name recognition...but I don't know if it would have the same brand identity for a company that is capable of producing to actually care enough to invest in the brand.
2014/08/07 03:39:08
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Even if they managed D&D so badly it was entirely dropped - the brand would still have enough legs that they could come in with a new team and reboot it from within the company.
GW on the other hand is a one trick pony...and the pony has a broken leg. If they can't turn things around, then the chances of Warhammer and 40K continuing on become much less likely. It could very easily go the way of any number of other games (defunct and only supported by old gamers) or end up in a holding company's portfolio of IP (like what happened with Mutant Chronicles).
In the UK - they probably have better name recognition...but I don't know if it would have the same brand identity for a company that is capable of producing to actually care enough to invest in the brand.
See, that's the thing that keeps popping into my mind. If GW does go belly up, will anyone pick up the games? Everyone seems so sure, but I'm not. Except for some moderately-successful video games, neither 40K nor WHFB have ever had much success outside of the wargaming hobby. Not sure about the UK, but here in the US, the brand recognition is zero. The whole hobby for that matter is practically unknown outside of those who already participate.
I mean, D&D only barely survived TSR going under, and it's a cultural touchstone. What are the chances that 40K survives, to say nothing of Fantasy?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/07 03:39:44
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2014/08/07 03:50:11
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Even if they managed D&D so badly it was entirely dropped - the brand would still have enough legs that they could come in with a new team and reboot it from within the company.
Demonstrably true - that is exactly what they are trying to do with 5e, and signs point to at least a partial success.
Or even an external reboot under a different name, given the success of Pathfinder.
WotC overestimated brand loyalty, and underestimated system loyalty - and badly underestimated the loyalty that the OGL/D20 License had generated.
Plenty of folk are willing to point at Pathfinder and say 'That is D&D.' Not 'That is like D&D' but D&D itself. (And plenty of others were more than willing to point at 4e and say 'That isn't D&D'.)
GW on the other hand is a one trick pony...and the pony has a broken leg. If they can't turn things around, then the chances of Warhammer and 40K continuing on become much less likely. It could very easily go the way of any number of other games (defunct and only supported by old gamers) or end up in a holding company's portfolio of IP (like what happened with Mutant Chronicles).
In the UK - they probably have better name recognition...but I don't know if it would have the same brand identity for a company that is capable of producing to actually care enough to invest in the brand.
Nor is their pony all that unique and outstanding a member of its species - thus the lack of success with the Chapterhouse suit.
Though... I have to admit that the Space Wolf sled... thingy... is... unique?
I... don't think that they have to worry much about other folks trying to copy that one....
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2014/08/07 03:55:00
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Guildsman wrote: Except for some moderately-successful video games, neither 40K nor WHFB have ever had much success outside of the wargaming hobby.
They haven't... but they could have.
Imagine what the Ultramarines movie could have been if it had been handled by Pixar or Dreamworks, Or by the guys who did 'Under The Red Hood'.
It's entirely likely that an outside investor would see the potential inherent in the IP, at least for 40K. The Warhammer world, not so much. There's not really much that (to an outsider) really distinguishes it from any other generic Elves-Dwarves-and-Dragons fantasy setting.
2014/08/07 04:01:04
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
40k has huge possibilities outside of tabletop gaming, it's a shame GW hasn't capitalised on them. Space marines the t-shirts, space marines the breakfast cereal, space marines the FLAME THROWER!
2014/08/07 04:17:00
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Yonan wrote: 40k has huge possibilities outside of tabletop gaming, it's a shame GW hasn't capitalised on them. Space marines the t-shirts, space marines the breakfast cereal, space marines the FLAME THROWER!
Instead we have Space Marine: the BLAME THROWER! (It wasn't our fault! It was the antiquated legal system!)
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2014/08/07 04:17:20
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
There were some interpretations of Kirby's preamble that it was actually a answering back to other board members that didn't recognize his genius. A polemic against concerns raised by his fellow board members.
I would say that I definitely got a sense of that; that his 'stepping down' is not his decision at all and he was taking swipes at the board here and there. He seemed to be talking back to them in a public forum in an almost "you'll be sorry" sort of tone. The Preamble was so uncouth that I struggled to read through it.
After another pass (I tried to see if it might be easier to digest after all this discussion), I find it interesting he comments on the recruiting process and the qualities he looks for in certain candidates:
Tom Kirby wrote:We got a great (not good, great) new board member. She is still
surprised that I did not read her CV (exasperated would be a more accurate word) but there was no need. Her letter told us what
kind of person she was: sincere, open-minded, a learner, excited at the opportunity. The interview told us she had all the qualities
needed. It mattered not one jot what her CV said. Appointing NXDs because of their careers rather than who they are is at the
heart of the rot in the corporate world.
That's it Tom, let's hire people with a firm handshake and a good suit. To hell with their credentials - as long as they can say, "Yes, Mr. Kirby!" Isn't that about right?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/07 04:31:38
WH40K Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
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2014/08/07 04:42:10
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Yonan wrote: 40k has huge possibilities outside of tabletop gaming, it's a shame GW hasn't capitalised on them. Space marines the t-shirts, space marines the breakfast cereal, space marines the FLAME THROWER!
I am really honestly surprised that this is not a thing already and could be as simple or elaborate as they want.
Get the faction logos from the rule book and stick them on a plain shirt then run a big "choose you side" campaign to sell them. Easy money.
Double Fine Adventure, Wasteland 2, Nekro, Shadowrun Returns, Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, Planetary Annihilation, Project Eternity, Distance, Dreamfall Chapters, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Consortium, Divinity: Original Sin, Smart Guys, Raging Heroes - The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, Armikrog, Massive Chalice, Satellite Reign, Cthulhu Wars, Warmachine: Tactics, Game Loading: Rise Of The Indies, Indie Statik, Awesomenauts: Starstorm, Cosmic Star Heroine, THE LONG DARK, The Mandate, Stasis, Hand of Fate, Upcycled Machined Dice, Legend of Grimrock: The Series, Unsung Story: Tale of the Guardians, Cyberpunk Soundtracks, Darkest Dungeon, Starcrawlers
I have a KickStarter problem.
2014/08/07 04:57:32
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Yonan wrote: 40k has huge possibilities outside of tabletop gaming, it's a shame GW hasn't capitalised on them. Space marines the t-shirts, space marines the breakfast cereal, space marines the FLAME THROWER!
A weird, more subtle trait of GW is while they're greedy, they're greedy on their own terms and will not want to make more money if it means they have to admit they're wrong or actually change their ways. It's why they don't advertise, cut themselves off from social media, or expand their IP in any way. It's also why they deliberately drive away veteran gamers and hobbyists. Because they don't want your money, or at the very most simply want you to quietly insert it via a website. All of these things would give them more money, regardless of changing anything else about themselves. However they don't do it, because the weird culture the execs surround themselves with has dictated that advertising is bad, veteran customers are the enemy, and the IP is something they can only exclusively dictate.
GW is 1 part spiteful, 1 part bitter, 1 part greedy, 3 parts paranoid, a good many parts incompetent, but perhaps most of all stubborn.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/07 05:06:28
My Armies:
5,500pts 2,700pts 2,000pts
2014/08/07 05:21:21
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
Yonan wrote: 40k has huge possibilities outside of tabletop gaming, it's a shame GW hasn't capitalised on them. Space marines the t-shirts, space marines the breakfast cereal, space marines the FLAME THROWER!
That last one would probably be really popluar with the kids
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2014/08/07 05:25:38
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
TheAuldGrump wrote: Though the folks at Paizo maintain that Pathfinder outstripped 4e much earlier - and in that... my local market seems to agree with. Mid to late 2010. (See if you can find the audio files for Aunt Lisa's Story Hour - a lot of fun to listen to.) *EDIT* Link!
ICv2 first published Pathfinder as being the number 1 RPG in 2nd quarter, 2011. Essentials was released September, 2010. It was indeed in response to falling sales though. I was talking about the people not believing ICv2, even though pathfinder was likely already outselling them before the q2, 2011 report that made that public knowledge.
Yeah... instead of there being a 500 pound gorilla in the RPG industry there ended up being a 240 pound gorilla, a 220 pound gorilla, and enough monkeys as will fit in a large barrel.
I actually think this is a lot better and hope the miniature market continues to be more fragmented with more companies entering all the time. With each financial report we see that GW is giving up more and more market share and with each price hike on new releases, companies without GW's potential economies of scale advantage can enter the market with healthy margins.
WotC damaged the market a good deal - I suspect that Pathfinder and 4e put together were not as big as the 3.X/D20 market.
The most damaging release for the RPG market was the 3.5 release. It pretty much invalidated huge swathes of the OGL product lines and started an industry wide contraction that left very few survivors in 2008 compared to just a few years earlier. Then with 4E's narrow focus and the abandonment of 3.x to Pathfinder, they damaged it further.
It's one reason I'm glad GW never did go "open" with their stuff. A minor tweak can leave stores with old versions on their shelves in a real industry damaging way. With them keeping it all locked down, if a store or customer gets shafted by a minor edition change in a small time frame (like 7th edition), they can just move on to another game. When everyone gets shafted because the new rules invalidate hundreds of titles on the shelf, the whole industry can contract.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guildsman wrote:See, that's the thing that keeps popping into my mind. If GW does go belly up, will anyone pick up the games? Everyone seems so sure, but I'm not.
I don't think it would really get picked up. People keep talking about it like it's some great amazing property. It didn't save THQ from bankruptcy and Warhammer Online failed to dent WoW at all and slowly died. Now it's all tablet shovelware and tiny board game and rpg license revenue.
I actually think GW's greatest two assets are it's customer base who keeps lapping their stuff up and their in house tooling and plastic production. Imagine what could be accomplished with a leadership team that was about making great games and offering great value.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/07 05:44:29
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
2014/08/07 05:53:00
Subject: GW Annual Report is Up -- Report discussion starts on pg 12
I agree with frozenwastes about the long term value of the GW game fluff.
The revenue figures show that the vast bulk of sales are game books and model kits. Black Library and so on account for only a small amount despite being on sale in regular bookshops. (Like Halo and Assassin's Creed books.) That means the background has little traction outside the player community.
I could imagine another company taking over the games, which have significant physical assets. I can't see a company purchasing the IP purely to make films and books.
Yonan wrote: 40k has huge possibilities outside of tabletop gaming, it's a shame GW hasn't capitalised on them. Space marines the t-shirts, space marines the breakfast cereal, space marines the FLAME THROWER!
A weird, more subtle trait of GW is while they're greedy, they're greedy on their own terms and will not want to make more money if it means they have to admit they're wrong or actually change their ways. It's why they don't advertise, cut themselves off from social media, or expand their IP in any way. It's also why they deliberately drive away veteran gamers and hobbyists. Because they don't want your money, or at the very most simply want you to quietly insert it via a website. All of these things would give them more money, regardless of changing anything else about themselves. However they don't do it, because the weird culture the execs surround themselves with has dictated that advertising is bad, veteran customers are the enemy, and the IP is something they can only exclusively dictate.
GW is 1 part spiteful, 1 part bitter, 1 part greedy, 3 parts paranoid, a good many parts incompetent, but perhaps most of all stubborn.
In many ways it seems like GW doesn't want to make money.
It is like GW has a big barrel full of gold, but it is completely full.....and that is a problem.
Games Designer; "We could do X, Y or Z. This could make us a boat-load of money......and we could use a boat-load of money about now. *glances at financial report*"
Tom Kirby; "...And where should we store all this money, smart arse (*sotto voce* -until we pay out the next installment of my pension dividends)?"
Games Designer; "Well, we could just buy another barrel....."
Tom Kirby; "Are you insane?? Do you think barrels are free? We cannot afford more expenses!"
Games Designer; "But we could just get a cheap barrel from down the road"
Tom Kirby; "Have you completely lost the plot, son? We do not use generic barrels. We only use Barriculum Imperialis™ because that is made by us and owned by us.
Remember we are not making 90% of potential income. We are losing 10%!!!.....and we simply have no room in the production schedule right now."
Games Designer; "Surely, sir, the tiny added expense is easily covered by some of the money in the new barrel"
Tom Kirby; "No! Either we get all the money....or we are not interested at all!"
Games Designer; "But, sir! We could licence the Flightpath™ system from Fantasy Flight Games, grab the models from the now-defunct Aeronautica Imperialis game over at Forgeworld, throw some rules together and ride the current popularity wave from X-wing and Attack Wing! This would give us a needed financial boost!"
Tom Kirby; "No! The added expense of licencing would kill our children and strike the sun from the sky!"
Games Designer; "*Mutters* It seem to work for WizKids with Attack Wing....."
Tom Kirby; "What was that?!?!"
Games Designer; "Nothing, sir....."
Tom Kirby; " AAAAAAAALLLLLLL THEEEEE MOOOONEEEEYYYY.......or NONE!" *storms out while muttering about idiots*"
-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
GW wouldn't even have to licence the X-Wing system to make an Aeronautica game. They could easily invent their own similar system using the same basic ideas.
Steelmage99 wrote:Games Designer; "But, sir! We could licence the Flightpath™ system from Fantasy Flight Games, grab the models from the now-defunct Aeronautica Imperialis game over at Forgeworld, throw some rules together and ride the current popularity wave from X-wing and Attack Wing! This would give us a needed financial boost!"
Such a Please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n good idea. If GW came out with Flightpath system with the Aeronautica models for $15 a pop like X-Wing... I would buy all of them.
Kilkrazy wrote:I could imagine another company taking over the games, which have significant physical assets. I can't see a company purchasing the IP purely to make films and books.
GW still being profitable despite everything they've done over the years shows that they have a loyal customer base and their business of making and selling miniatures is worthwhile.
Kilkrazy wrote:GW wouldn't even have to licence the X-Wing system to make an Aeronautica game. They could easily invent their own similar system using the same basic ideas.
At this point I don't trust their studio to do anything like that. Whoever is doing their brand management has such a one track approach there's no room for any innovation. The current GW is not the GW that playtested Mordheim and Battlefleet gothic through White Dwarf before releasing the final game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/07 10:47:53
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
Goodness, I was almost disappointed to discover that the same thing was happening everywhere....
& 
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
18.000 
3.500 
8.200 
3.300 
2.400 
3.100 
5.500 
2.500 
3.200 
3.000