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 frozenwastes wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Though the folks at Paizo maintain that Pathfinder outstripped 4e much earlier - and in that... my local market seems to agree with. Mid to late 2010. (See if you can find the audio files for Aunt Lisa's Story Hour - a lot of fun to listen to.) *EDIT* Link!

ICv2 first published Pathfinder as being the number 1 RPG in 2nd quarter, 2011. Essentials was released September, 2010. It was indeed in response to falling sales though. I was talking about the people not believing ICv2, even though pathfinder was likely already outselling them before the q2, 2011 report that made that public knowledge.

Yeah... instead of there being a 500 pound gorilla in the RPG industry there ended up being a 240 pound gorilla, a 220 pound gorilla, and enough monkeys as will fit in a large barrel.

I actually think this is a lot better and hope the miniature market continues to be more fragmented with more companies entering all the time. With each financial report we see that GW is giving up more and more market share and with each price hike on new releases, companies without GW's potential economies of scale advantage can enter the market with healthy margins.

WotC damaged the market a good deal - I suspect that Pathfinder and 4e put together were not as big as the 3.X/D20 market.

The most damaging release for the RPG market was the 3.5 release. It pretty much invalidated huge swathes of the OGL product lines and started an industry wide contraction that left very few survivors in 2008 compared to just a few years earlier. Then with 4E's narrow focus and the abandonment of 3.x to Pathfinder, they damaged it further.

Though, again to be fair, WotC did spend a fair amount of ink telling folks that if they had 3e then they really didn't need to switch to 3.5.

That 3.5 was just minor 'improvements' and was by and large compatible with minor changes (with a conversion document available). (I do not agree with all of the changes - in particular that everything suddenly had squared off base sizes.)

Given that Pathfinder changes things further, and that I can do conversions from 3e to 3P on the fly... it seems an accurate enough claim.

In this case the crash was driven by the customers, not just the publisher.

timd wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


Though... I have to admit that the Space Wolf sled... thingy... is... unique?

I... don't think that they have to worry much about other folks trying to copy that one....

The Auld Grump

Looks unique until you look at Circus Imperium's grav chariots pulled by big beasts:

http://ironwindmetals.com/store/popup_image.php?pID=5812&type=JPG

http://ironwindmetals.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=5812

I... had forgotten about that game.

You are, of course, completely correct.

But at least those stupid grav chariots make sense in a blood sport exhibition - much less on a far future battlefield. People expect gladiators to die....

The Auld Grump, and I hate the danged triangular fur that GW seems to like so very much these days....

The HH books was a great idea and I thought there was a release plan. Say 10 - 15 books and then we got to the big battle on Earth, but no. Once GW sussed that they were popular they just kept churning them out with no end in site

AFAIK, Mark Wells was bought in by Tom Kirby to take up the position of C.E.O ,in 2008 .Because it is considered a 'conflict of interest ' (illegal?) for the same person to be company chairman AND C.E.O.
After the awful results of GW plc in 2007, Kirby was advised NOT to continue as C.E.O.AND Chairman , as he would not be supported by shareholders.Apparently ?

Mark Wells, just followed the instructions of the company Chairman ( Tom Kirby,) and cut costs,and raised retail prices.

Mark Wells has since been awarded about £500k , by GW plc.(Not sure if it was severance pay, or compensation for 'constructive dismissal'?)

Is the proposed option for GW plc to buy back £4 M of shares , to let Tom Kirby off load a good amount of his shares without loosing value through 'trading' them?

I get the sense Tom Kirby is getting his golden parachute ready...

He has managed to get over £6M out of GW plc since 2007, when he admitted the GW corporate management were '..fat and lazy..'
By continuing to take EXACTLY the same' fat and lazy' actions !

 Wolfstan wrote:
The HH books was a great idea and I thought there was a release plan. Say 10 - 15 books and then we got to the big battle on Earth, but no. Once GW sussed that they were popular they just kept churning them out with no end in site

I would definitely like to see the HH come to a conclusion. I love it, but I also want to see the ending. In my life time.

 Wolfstan wrote:
The HH books was a great idea and I thought there was a release plan. Say 10 - 15 books and then we got to the big battle on Earth, but no. Once GW sussed that they were popular they just kept churning them out with no end in site

I've read the first three, which I thought were quite good really, there are so many now I don't really know where to go next so just haven't bothered.

I wanted to read the story of the heresy from start to finish, but, and I may be wrong as I have long given up following it all, what it actually is is just a never ending series of stories from that time.

 Wolfstan wrote:
The HH books was a great idea and I thought there was a release plan. Say 10 - 15 books and then we got to the big battle on Earth, but no. Once GW sussed that they were popular they just kept churning them out with no end in site

I read the first couple ones, but I just found them extremely boring and, I think pretentious is the word that I'm looking for to describe the style in which they were written.

It's a bit like the Forgeworld releases, at this rate GW will go bust before they do an Emperor figure.

I think FW going under if GW fall would be a real loss though. That's were the good stuff is being made now and there's a different attitude by the staff towards letting out peeks of new material, having open days, attending events. Stuff that GW main has decided is worthy of them.

I loved the first 3 books. As I've said before I found myself telling Horus to listen to reason. There has been some good ones and indifferent ones since then. However they should of decided on a 10 - 15 book arc and stuck to it. Everything else should come under some sort of sub HH header.

Lanrak wrote:
AFAIK, Mark Wells was bought in by Tom Kirby to take up the position of C.E.O ,in 2008 .Because it is considered a 'conflict of interest ' (illegal?) for the same person to be company chairman AND C.E.O.

It is neither, it is just considered not best practice and a little frowned upon, but ultimately it is the hands of the individual organisation.

Mark Wells has since been awarded about £500k , by GW plc.(Not sure if it was severance pay, or compensation for 'constructive dismissal'?)

It is referenced as "compensation" not "renumeration" and is accounted for in the next accounting period along from when he left. I'm not sure what it represents either, but it certainly smells off.

Is the proposed option for GW plc to buy back £4 M of shares , to let Tom Kirby off load a good amount of his shares without loosing value through 'trading' them?

I get the sense Tom Kirby is getting his golden parachute ready...

Yep, it would certainly look that way, he's approaching retirement age after all. I agree the buy back could certainly be some or all of his shares. That he wants to cash in now, and not sit back, claim a dividend and let the shares naturally accumulate in value may tell it's own story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfstan wrote:
I loved the first 3 books. As I've said before I found myself telling Horus to listen to reason. There has been some good ones and indifferent ones since then. However they should of decided on a 10 - 15 book arc and stuck to it. Everything else should come under some sort of sub HH header.

I've gone from reading almost exclusively BL books to only reading the MMPB HH novels, none of the ebooks, novellas or wider Universe stuff for 40K or Fantasy (and I was one sat hitting F5 when Promethean Sun was about to go on sale to get a signed, LE copy, and for Aurelian, not bothered since.)

The transition to HB knocked me off the treadmill where I'd get the latest HH, finish it, pick up some other BL novel before the next HH was due out, read the next HH book... etc, etc. The gap between MMPB was so long during the transition, and I was so irritated by that, I went elsewhere, discovered some new, non BL authors and rediscovered some old ones who had put new stuff out while I'd been married to BL.

So in the space of around 4 years since I fully re-engaged with wargaming, GW, in one form or another, have managed to transition from receiving near 100% of the cash I spent on models and books to, in all likelihood, around 10-20%. I can't believe I'm such a special snowflake that others haven't got similar stories.

 Azreal13 wrote:


So in the space of around 4 years since I fully re-engaged with wargaming, GW, in one form or another, have managed to transition from receiving near 100% of the cash I spent on models and books to, in all likelihood, around 10-20%. I can't believe I'm such a special snowflake that others haven't got similar stories.

You are, and you aren't - at the same time!

Well, obviously I'm a bit special, but I'm not especially special.

Nawameen?

GW saw that the HH novels were a cash cow and is going to milk it for all that it's worth. My fear is that it will turn into the 41st millennium and the story never progresses, just endless, mindless fluff.

 Azreal13 wrote:
It is referenced as "compensation" not "renumeration" and is accounted for in the next accounting period along from when he left. I'm not sure what it represents either, but it certainly smells off.

Just as a point of note the £569k compensation for loss of office was paid and accounted for in the 12/13 year, it just restates the figures for the previous year in the report. This is confirmed if you look at the figures in last years report. Compensation for loss of office is a term often used for termination of employment or for people taking early retirement, whether this was Mark Wells' choice or not is up for discussion but for information purposes these are the terms for Executive Director service contract in the Remuneration Report.

Each of the executive directors has a service agreement with the Company which is capable of termination by either party on giving 12 months’ notice. If the Company gives notice then the Company reserves the right to pay salary in lieu of notice. The service agreements are silent regarding the payment that may be due in the event of early termination by the Company.

There is no specific service contract information for the CEO so this should apply. Now they may have decided to give him greater than 12 months pay in lieu, but there was nothing specific in any of the reports since he left (not that necessarily should have been). I believe he was on a Salary of £266k at the time of resignation, he earned £177k for the 8 months worked until his resignation, but obviously the £569k payment is over twice what it would seem he should receive if it was pay in lieu of notice.

It's hard to come to any real conclusion on this as while it might have been it push, he also might have wanted to jump and asked for enough money to do so quietly, or anything in between.

 Musashi363 wrote:
GW saw that the HH novels were a cash cow and is going to milk it for all that it's worth. My fear is that it will turn into the 41st millennium and the story never progresses, just endless, mindless fluff.

While I'm aware that there's always the possibility of procrastination or even a total about-face, I've seen comments from several of the authors (ADB, and Abnett and McNeill IIRC) to the effect that there's already a plan in place for how to progress the main narrative and for the end-game.

Of course, that will just be on the novels, and it doesn't preclude any number of audio dramas, special, limited edition ebooks and novellas, plus numerous anthologies reprinting them all in collective works in the meantime.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Callarthis wrote:

Spoiler:

 Azreal13 wrote:
It is referenced as "compensation" not "renumeration" and is accounted for in the next accounting period along from when he left. I'm not sure what it represents either, but it certainly smells off.

Just as a point of note the £569k compensation for loss of office was paid and accounted for in the 12/13 year, it just restates the figures for the previous year in the report. This is confirmed if you look at the figures in last years report. Compensation for loss of office is a term often used for termination of employment or for people taking early retirement, whether this was Mark Wells' choice or not is up for discussion but for information purposes these are the terms for Executive Director service contract in the Remuneration Report.

Each of the executive directors has a service agreement with the Company which is capable of termination by either party on giving 12 months’ notice. If the Company gives notice then the Company reserves the right to pay salary in lieu of notice. The service agreements are silent regarding the payment that may be due in the event of early termination by the Company.

There is no specific service contract information for the CEO so this should apply. Now they may have decided to give him greater than 12 months pay in lieu, but there was nothing specific in any of the reports since he left (not that necessarily should have been). I believe he was on a Salary of £266k at the time of resignation, he earned £177k for the 8 months worked until his resignation, but obviously the £569k payment is over twice what it would seem he should receive if it was pay in lieu of notice.

It's hard to come to any real conclusion on this as while it might have been it push, he also might have wanted to jump and asked for enough money to do so quietly, or anything in between.

Agreed, but I'm struggling to come up with many theories that are totally reasonable and innocent though.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
GW saw that the HH novels were a cash cow and is going to milk it for all that it's worth. My fear is that it will turn into the 41st millennium and the story never progresses, just endless, mindless fluff.

While I'm aware that there's always the possibility of procrastination or even a total about-face, I've seen comments from several of the authors (ADB, and Abnett and McNeill IIRC) to the effect that there's already a plan in place for how to progress the main narrative and for the end-game.

Of course, that will just be on the novels, and it doesn't preclude any number of audio dramas, special, limited edition ebooks and novellas, plus numerous anthologies reprinting them all in collective works in the meantime.

I too share this concern. I think the people driving the boat don't always share the navigator's view. The writer's may have a view, but if the bean counter's won't let them implement it, it doesn't really matter. HH jumped the shark for me quite awhile ago.

sciencemile wrote:
I'd pay money for some official Aquila/Khorne/Slaanesh/etc Necklaces. Or the Inquisitorial Collar Pin.

Inquisitorial/Admech neckchain, IG dog tags etc...

 Selym wrote:

sciencemile wrote:
I'd pay money for some official Aquila/Khorne/Slaanesh/etc Necklaces. Or the Inquisitorial Collar Pin.

Inquisitorial/Admech neckchain, IG dog tags etc...

But that will never happen (again) because it's logical and makes sense. Kirby doesn't support stupid notions like common sense.

Lanrak wrote:
AFAIK, Mark Wells was bought in by Tom Kirby to take up the position of C.E.O ,in 2008 .Because it is considered a 'conflict of interest ' (illegal?) for the same person to be company chairman AND C.E.O.
After the awful results of GW plc in 2007, Kirby was advised NOT to continue as C.E.O.AND Chairman , as he would not be supported by shareholders.Apparently ?

... ...

According to his LinkedIn page he was CEO at GW from 2000 to 2013.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=251011019&authType=NAME_SEARCH&authToken=WiDe&locale=en_US&srchid=1580906651407435880316&srchindex=2&srchtotal=585&trk=vsrp_people_res_name&trkInfo=VSRPsearchId%3A1580906651407435880316%2CVSRPtargetId%3A251011019%2CVSRPcmpt%3Aprimary

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Selym wrote:

sciencemile wrote:
I'd pay money for some official Aquila/Khorne/Slaanesh/etc Necklaces. Or the Inquisitorial Collar Pin.

Inquisitorial/Admech neckchain, IG dog tags etc...

But that will never happen (again) because it's logical and makes sense. Kirby doesn't support stupid notions like common sense.

Or T-shirts, they tired once back in the day with meh worthy designs and then gave up on it entirely. Brand the gak out of it. Dice, shirts, iPhone cases, stickers.

Edit: Oops, got by the swear filter on that one.

So in the space of around 4 years since I fully re-engaged with wargaming, GW, in one form or another, have managed to transition from receiving near 100% of the cash I spent on models and books to, in all likelihood, around 10-20%. I can't believe I'm such a special snowflake that others haven't got similar stories.

For some Vets in our gaming group, the similar holds. They mainly spend their money for WM/H.

@Killkrazy.
I was basing my information on this..
http://investor.games-workshop.com/2013/01/18/board-changes/
(Other sources also site Mr Wells term as GWs C.E.O. from 2008 to 2013 .)

@Azreal13
I stand corrected on the same person being C.E.O.and Chairman of the board of the same company.Is 'not best practice' and 'just frowned upon'.
(But GW plcs poor performance in 2007, put Tom Kirby in the spot light, as it were, and investors were not happy about him holding both positions.AFAIK.)

 MWHistorian wrote:

I would definitely like to see the HH come to a conclusion. I love it, but I also want to see the ending. In my life time.

I heard a rumour GW were going to hire GRR Martin to finish off the series.

 Vermis wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

I would definitely like to see the HH come to a conclusion. I love it, but I also want to see the ending. In my life time.

I heard a rumour GW were going to hire GRR Martin to finish off the series.

Don't expect the final book till 2030 at the earliest then.

 Vermis wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

I would definitely like to see the HH come to a conclusion. I love it, but I also want to see the ending. In my life time.

I heard a rumour GW were going to hire GRR Martin to finish off the series.

Damn there will be no more books coming after that

Lanrak wrote:
@Killkrazy.
I was basing my information on this..
http://investor.games-workshop.com/2013/01/18/board-changes/
(Other sources also site Mr Wells term as GWs C.E.O. from 2008 to 2013 .)

@Azreal13
I stand corrected on the same person being C.E.O.and Chairman of the board of the same company.Is 'not best practice' and 'just frowned upon'.
(But GW plcs poor performance in 2007, put Tom Kirby in the spot light, as it were, and investors were not happy about him holding both positions.AFAIK.)

Probably he joined GW in 2000 and was appointed CEO in 2008.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
@Killkrazy.
I was basing my information on this..
http://investor.games-workshop.com/2013/01/18/board-changes/
(Other sources also site Mr Wells term as GWs C.E.O. from 2008 to 2013 .)

@Azreal13
I stand corrected on the same person being C.E.O.and Chairman of the board of the same company.Is 'not best practice' and 'just frowned upon'.
(But GW plcs poor performance in 2007, put Tom Kirby in the spot light, as it were, and investors were not happy about him holding both positions.AFAIK.)

Probably he joined GW in 2000 and was appointed CEO in 2008.

I'm sure he held a head of retail or equivalent position near the beginning, that's the capacity in which I believe he visited the store I red-shirted in the one time I met him.

The pace of codex updates is really astonishing.
Now SW. Then GK in a few weeks.
GW obviously thinks that this will increase sales.

Thoughts?

Vet players will generally only buy the new stuff. In terms of SW, flyers and Murder*.
On the other hand, the number of players starting SW will be rather limited due to prices and LE of the starter box Sanctus Reach.

I'm hoping to get back into playing 40k using the 40k in 40min rules, but this will be with the old rules & codex. If I go ahead I will buy some of the new SW basic units, but that's as far as it goes.

 wuestenfux wrote:
The pace of codex updates is really astonishing.
Now SW. Then GK in a few weeks.
GW obviously thinks that this will increase sales.

Thoughts?

Actually, I believe that's what they have to do to get rid of these "Codex Inequities" with the new edition.

For V7 to work, you must have all the books aligned. Indeed, since you can take everything you want from everywhere, if something isn't adapted to the new rules, it will not work.

But to accelerate game rules pace, you must accept the fact you will have less new models. For the sake of the game, they are forced to do that.

If they want to keep selling rules, that is.

Well, 40k is more and more the core business of GW.
What I don't understand why they don't give Fantasy a chance to grow or restart with releasing a new rule book.