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 Azreal13 wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So... even Kirby doesn't know exactly what he's saying? Did they lobotomise him halfway through the report?

More likely I'm not reading into it correctly I presume.

No, you're reading it correctly.

This presents as one of two likely scenarios.

They needed as many plausible reasons as possible to explain away the drop in profits as a temporary blip,rather than a trend, and so switched the direction of the spin and hoped it would pass casual inspection.

They've had their arses handed to them in the behind closed doors negotiations that have been happening since shortly after the trial concluded, and that isn't public yet.

You're missing a third (and in my opinion most likely) possibility: Kirby and co. got chewed out for the expenditures when folks started looking at the financials more closely and wondered what the huge expense was for. Such an inquiry would naturally lead down a GW v CHS rabbit hole and could easily result in finger pointing and blame throwing.

Unlike many expenditures, the money GW put into the GW v CHS case would be very conspicuous in the context of the legal department's normal budget, and it can be easily tied to an objective failure.

You spent more than a million dollars, the defendant is still in business, and you haven't actually seen any of the 25K judgement because the lawsuit is being appealed by another major law firm? You exposed the company to millions in ongoing liability, put the intellectual property at risk, devalued the brand, accomplished nothing, and are still putting money into this?!? Which of you idiots decided to piss away my money on this nonsense?

Personally, what sticks out most to me is the phrase "indecent amount of your money." If investors hadn't already said that, I seriously doubt Kirby would voluntarily come so close to admitting breach of fiduciary duty.

thetallestgiraffe wrote:I actually think that GW's idea of charging crapton for their models has actually had some positive effects for their product sales that aren't showing, and here's why; there will 100% always be a very large amount of people who will buy their stuff so long as it is made. Why? Because we've (I am one of them) have spent a RIDICULOUS amount of money on it. For me to start to play another board game now is an incredibly stupid idea because
a) like most gamers I know I only have time for one game, and that game is going to be the one that I have put the money into
b) I've put this much money into them that I will take the dicking around because if I quit the hobby I have wasted thousands on their stuff, never to use it again.

While I think Azreal's going a bit hard on you, I have to agree with this:

Azreal13 wrote:Dude, you're a living, breathing example of the sunken cost fallacy.

I've seen the 'I've spent too much to stop spending' thing far too often on places like Warseer, and too often it seems like the only reason some of these people stick with GW and 40K, like an abused spouse. If you hadn't said (and to be frank, despite that you said) your only gaming venue was a GW store, I'd say what I always say: you can keep your minis and roll in the fluff. New minis and new fluff don't invalidate that. If at some time you get fed up because of screwy turns in minis and fluff (flying viking bathtub, anyone?), ricocheting meta, or grindingly childish rules*, that still doesn't invalidate your old minis and the old fluff. You can keep all that and simply try out (cheaper, better) sci-fi rules that you can slot 'em into.

It just might mean having to look for local gaming clubs rather than GW stores. (Seven of which aren't statistically significant, especially in the face of financial reports, sorry.)

And the time spent doing that will be more than recompensed by the time saved not having to look up convoluted rules rather than pushing toy soldiers around. (Seriously, if time is a concern, 40K and FB aren't your friends. They take up ridiculous amounts of time compared to proper mass-battle games, let alone other, properly-sized skirmish games)

*I also agree with this:

Azreal13 wrote:Secondly, your profile shows you've only been playing for a few years.

Give it time.

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I actually think that GW's idea of charging crapton for their models has actually had some positive effects for their product sales that aren't showing, and here's why; there will 100% always be a very large amount of people who will buy their stuff so long as it is made. Why? Because we've (I am one of them) have spent a RIDICULOUS amount of money on it. For me to start to play another board game now is an incredibly stupid idea because
a) like most gamers I know I only have time for one game, and that game is going to be the one that I have put the money into
b) I've put this much money into them that I will take the dicking around because if I quit the hobby I have wasted thousands on their stuff, never to use it again.

I'm a casual gamer that hasn't got all that much time to try out new games and has enough fun playing 40k and a tiny bit of fantasy to be relatively content. I've spent quite a bit on GW products over the years and I don't want to suddenly make all that redundant while I'm still enjoying myself.

I honestly think that people put too much emphasis on these people that do jump ship compared to those who stick around. For every person that has stopped the game due to what they feel is unfair pricing there are many more who stick around because they aren't unhappy enough to change and the pricing has caused them to commit to the game for the long haul.

Do you realise you can get an entire massive involving well-made game like Twilight Imperium III for less than the price of a single Imperial Night Titan without the codex you need to use it?

 Vermis wrote:
While I think Azreal's going a bit hard on you, I have to agree with this:

Azreal13 wrote:Dude, you're a living, breathing example of the sunken cost fallacy.

I've seen the 'I've spent too much to stop spending' thing far too often on places like Warseer, and too often it seems like the only reason some of these people stick with GW and 40K, like an abused spouse. If you hadn't said (and to be frank, despite that you said) your only gaming venue was a GW store, I'd say what I always say: you can keep your minis and roll in the fluff. New minis and new fluff don't invalidate that. If at some time you get fed up because of screwy turns in minis and fluff (flying viking bathtub, anyone?), ricocheting meta, or grindingly childish rules*, that still doesn't invalidate your old minis and the old fluff. You can keep all that and simply try out (cheaper, better) sci-fi rules that you can slot 'em into.

I know I used to have this "purist" concept in my head- that I wanted to stick adamantly to 40k because I was trying to maintain a certain scale/aesthetic/concept that really prevented me from getting into to other games. And that worked well for some games I generally couldn't build interest in (still not the biggest fan of WMH aesthetic so that stopped me from getting into it too much).

But once I saw the value in other games, I thought to myself "why didn't I do this sooner?" Games like Infinity, Dystopian Wars, and All Quiet on the Martian Front caught my interest in terms of their style and I realized I had been shoehorning myself into one game, one company that I know only values the money in my pocket.

Exactly. When I got back into 40k, the FIRST thing I experienced when I went to ALL 3 FLGS(we have no GW) was that not only employees, but also fellow gamers were actively trying to turn us 40k'ers on to warmachine, hordes, infinity, etc etc.

It is such an easy sale when you look objectively at the pros and cons of any game vs. 40k.

the only thing that keeps me in 40k is the emotional attachment to how much time and money ive spent already.

But that will only last so long, and it certainly doesn't make me feel intelligent when buying 200 dollars worth of JUST codexes in the last 2 years.

 Azreal13 wrote:

This report explicitly states GW do not listen to us, nor do they care that they don't. Therefore, your wallet is the only thing you can use to communicate your displeasure.

I agree!

However, the latest financials kind of tell us they don't listen to that result either!

Bugger it, you're right.

It's almost beautiful in a twisted perverse sort of way.

 insaniak wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

It is however a 'Capitol Ships' game.

So while it does not align on one axis it does align on another, equally important, axis.

Except it doesn't, entirely... because a certain number of sales of the Star Wars game are going to be coming from the fact that it is Star Wars, rather than specifically because it is a capital ship-oriented game.

Which is why I said that it aligned on one axis - and, yes, I do think that a broad release Capitol Ships game is in the same category as a Capitol Ships game, in much the same way that I feel that Deadzone is in the same category as Necromunda.

There are folks that want a Capitol Ships fleet battles game, whether Star Wars or Battlefleet Gothic (or Babylon 5 for that matter...).

I guess that the question is whether the Star Wars axis is more important than the Capitol Ships axis. Star Wars has a broader appeal - but I also think that GW has been losing a great deal of the breadth to its own appeal. That getting rid of Specialist Games have narrowed their appeal.

And I do not know if they can regain that appeal at this point. Or, worse, if GW would release a ham handed BFG in the style of Dreadfleet. (That, right there, is what I fear would happen.)

The Auld Grump

I guess I should've expected my intentions to be misrepresented and clarified a little more. I will build my eldar army via ebay and buying from local players. No GW or FLGS. I fail to see how GW gets a sales spike from me buying models on ebay.

That minor detail does change everything. But overall, the point is you're still participating in the hobby. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but the thing is changing armies doesn't punish GW. Changing game systems does. What YOU do is a drop in the bucket. What the general gamers do is more important. I think what people are trying to get at is that people are beginning to move to other games, not other armies.

Toofast wrote:
I guess I should've expected my intentions to be misrepresented and clarified a little more. I will build my eldar army via ebay and buying from local players. No GW or FLGS. I fail to see how GW gets a sales spike from me buying models on ebay.

More misunderstood than misrepresented, I think.

Though goodness knows that GW would love to close down eBay sales, if they could.

The only sales spike that GW might get from you buying from eBay is from folks wanting to play against you buying new - and since it is likely that you would stage whisper to buy from eBay instead....

Me... I am done with GW, I think.

I still play Mordheim and Necromunda - but use miniatures that are either old or were purchased from other companies.

And that is the current extent of my GW gaming.

I spend more than ever, but none of it goes to GW.

The Auld Grump

There's lot of reasons for me to stay with 40k. I have a GW 1/4 mile from my house with 30~ active players and we get more every week. We have 3 realm of battle tables with lots of nicely painted scenery. All my friends play 40k and maybe a little fantasy but haven't gotten into other games. I have 5k points worth and all the necessary books. I don't have time/energy/desire to spend more money on another system and learn all new rules/strategies, try to make all new friends or convince people who have no problem playing 40k to switch games, and play in the dark, cramped FLGS on felt tables with no scenery. That doesn't mean I like the company, but I still enjoy the game and see zero reasons to switch and tons of reasons not to. I guess the mass migration to other games just hasn't hit my area. I've been hanging out at GW a lot this week testing different lists and seen 5 people start new 40k armies with $200-300 initial purchases. I don't know anyone in our group trying to sell their army and get out, just a few guys maybe looking to trade one army for another like me.

Well its like anything else man. Cities that have a hockey team in them have a lot more people that like hockey in them. Cities that don't, don't. We don't have a GW store and the way GW does business with not only customers but retailers leads me to believe that unless they can get their stores to acheive miraculous growth, they are going to create an intense demand for competitor's products as time goes on.

Back on topic, folks. The "I'm still playing/I'm not playing" conversation is interesting, but inappropriate here. There are other threads for that.

Not sure there's much topic left until the next report comes out. /shrug

It does seem like this report has had a lot less support from pro-GW folks than even the next most recent one. The midyear report seemed to have a lot more folks defending GW's/Kirby's decisions.

The consensus seems to be that while 40K is still the biggest game, and that while it may still be growing that it is now growing much slower?

Or even shrinking?

That Kirby's preamble was... odd? (Odd enough that a goodly number of folks thought that it was a hoax or joke.)

And that nobody seems to have any idea if GW even can be turned back around at this point?

That the one-man stores are doing a great deal of harm to GW's visibility? (The only reason for having GW stores is to increase visibility - one man stores with limited hours, in low visibility areas... kind of defeats that purpose.)

That pricing has reached the point where sales are dropping, so that even all of this cost cutting has merely kept them even, with flat revenue?

Does that seem to sum things up?

This is really not a good position for GW to be in.

The Auld Grump

Perhaps it may help at this point to summarise reactions to the report.

The Optimistic View
GW suffered a drop in revenue but they are still making profits. They have money in the bank, no debt, and have cut their cost base even further. Sales drop last year was a temporary blip. New management is going to sort it out. The stage is set for a roaring return to ever increasing profits next year.

The Neutral View
GW suffered a serious drop in revenue, however they still are in profit and have money in the bank. If they can get their sales back up, everything will be fine. There are various ideas for how to do that and it just needs a management who can bring them on. Kirby standing down in favour of new blood may achieve this.

The Pessimistic View
GW suffered a serious drop in revenue, i.e. a loss of customers. They don't appear to have a realistic view of why, or how to turn it around, because they don't do any market research. While the company is in profit now, their fixed cost base is high and Cost of Sales is climbing. Another bad year probably will see them into loss making territory. Once that happens they will be in big trouble because there is nothing left to cut.

It still may be possible to turn things around starting now, as there is money in the bank, but this cannot happen while Kirby's and/or Kronies are in charge, and it seems unlikely they will be replaced any time soon as the proposed new CEO won't start for over six months and will be picked by the current krony krew.

The big deal to me is that there's no more fat to trim. As soon as they can't pay a lease because of a bad month (or something) things are going to snowball.

rigeld2 wrote:
The big deal to me is that there's no more fat to trim. As soon as they can't pay a lease because of a bad month (or something) things are going to snowball.

There's still a tiny bit more to cut, I'm sure. Just think of the savings if they cut out Kirby & Kompany.

Anyway, there is still a lot GW could do to turn things around, without having to delve too deeply into their cash reserves. Whether or not GW is smart enough to figure any of those things out without any market research, we'll know soon enough.
Just look, FFG just announced Star Wars: Armada, a capital ship scaled game. It's too bad GW doesn't have anything like that in their catalog...

The problem with the optimistic view, is that GW plc were in a similar position in 2007.

They had a drop in revenue and profits.And Tom Kirby Admitted the GW management had '..grown fat and lazy on the back of easy success..'

So rather than just increase retail prices, and cut costs to compensate for falling sales volumes.
Tom Kirby decided to hire a new C.E.O. to do something radically different...

Mark Wells pioneered the 'new formula' of cutting costs and raising retail prices, to compensate for falling sales volumes.

Because finding out what customers want with effective marketing, is calling the authority of Tom Kirby in to question.
So will not take place while he is GW plc Chairman.
Tom Kirby believes he has a 'unique insight' into the 'niche market in which GW operates.'
(Well it is easier for Tom Kirby to follow as GW plc s 'niche market' is shrinking year on year. )

GW used to sell minatures and games to a wide selection of people.
Then they focused more on core games.(WHFB, 40k, LoTR.)
Then they focused more on collectors of minatures in this reduced set of games.
Then they focused more on younger collectors in the smaller sub set of collectors of minatures for mainly just one game (40k.).

While Tom Kirby is Chairman at GW plc, I can not see the management making the necessary changes to current business practice to turn things around.
I really hope he retires completely sooner rather than later, to give GW a fighting chance of turning things around.

Does anybody else think The Krony Krew makes a great name for a Ork warband?

If this was the galactic senate I would be making a vote of no confidence for the current management.

I love 40K but I have come to dislike GW a lot. I always thought that if GW took a hit in their chin they might start to turn things around for the better. However, I now feel that there is very little hope for GW as long as the current management is in place. For me the only hope would be to commit exterminatus on the entire upper management and bring in new blood with completely different ideas and values.

I just don't think this is going to happen. Even with Kirby stepping down as CEO I think the new CEO will certainly be one of the Krony Krew and will have little positive impact. I would love to be wrong and see GW return to the glory days but I feel the sun is fading on this Empire.

Freeboota Kaptin Kirby and his Krony Krew.

*Kurbee

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The big deal to me is that there's no more fat to trim. As soon as they can't pay a lease because of a bad month (or something) things are going to snowball.

There's still a tiny bit more to cut, I'm sure. Just think of the savings if they cut out Kirby & Kompany.

I'd love to see that.

"So we can't cut in the design studio, because they actually generate income. We still need to produce the actual miniatures, and they need to be distributed in order to generate income, so we can't cut there. The stores, while one-man and in less attractive locations, generate income and much needed advertisement, so we can't cut anymore there.
Where can we cut costs?....tut tut tut"

*Looks at Kirby and board-members*

"Tell me again. How is it you actually generate any kind of income for the company?"

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The big deal to me is that there's no more fat to trim. As soon as they can't pay a lease because of a bad month (or something) things are going to snowball.

There's still a tiny bit more to cut, I'm sure. Just think of the savings if they cut out Kirby & Kompany.

I'd love to see that.

"So we can't cut in the design studio, because they actually generate income. We still need to produce the actual miniatures, and they need to be distributed in order to generate income, so we can't cut there. The stores, while one-man and in less attractive locations, generate income and much needed advertisement, so we can't cut anymore there.
Where can we cut costs?....tut tut tut"

*Looks at Kirby and board-members*

"Tell me again. How is it you actually generate any kind of income for the company?"

All i can see when I read this is this.....

Kirby was paid I think £517,000 last year, plus £45,000 pension fund contribution. He also got the dividends on his 8% + shareholding in the company. To be fair every shareholder got a divi regardless of employment status, though to be fair in another way, the fact that the chairman and CEO of the company have a big role in deciding on dividends there could be said to be a conflict of interest. OTOH it is up to the shareholders voting at the AGM to approve the annual compensation plan for executives, though again since Kirby is a significant shareholder again there might be said to be a conflict of interest.

Really, Kirby and the Kronies are the biggest problem for GW - and they are so entrenched that getting them out will take fire....

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Really, Kirby and the Kronies are the biggest problem for GW - and they are so entrenched that getting them out will take fire....

The Auld Grump

Either investors take the hit and push or the company tanks - only way to make such changes.

Not forgetting orbital based nuclear strikes.

The business is too tied to its current strategy - Kirby or no.

 darefsky wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The big deal to me is that there's no more fat to trim. As soon as they can't pay a lease because of a bad month (or something) things are going to snowball.

There's still a tiny bit more to cut, I'm sure. Just think of the savings if they cut out Kirby & Kompany.

I'd love to see that.

"So we can't cut in the design studio, because they actually generate income. We still need to produce the actual miniatures, and they need to be distributed in order to generate income, so we can't cut there. The stores, while one-man and in less attractive locations, generate income and much needed advertisement, so we can't cut anymore there.
Where can we cut costs?....tut tut tut"

*Looks at Kirby and board-members*

"Tell me again. How is it you actually generate any kind of income for the company?"

All i can see when I read this is this.....

So what would you say, you do here?

To be honest,
I can't help but think that complaints on dakka is hardly turning the company around..
GW/KIRBY don't do market research.. That way they don't had to show their investors that research.. (Which IMHO would be bad... Very bad)...
So why are Dakkanuaghts not getting together and... I don't know.. If not a market research document then a petition to all the major investing companies.. (Without nerd rage or preamble)
There are enough members that someone would now how to present a professional dossier... And it would at least have a chance to do so much more than nerd rage over first world problems..