Grey Knights are next ! - UPDATED 15/8 --- pre-order up on GW website

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**easysauce**

glad to see terminators got the buff they needed... was a bit of a joke before, great changes regarding them

**agnosto**

To clarify, the person providing information in the Bolter and Chainsword thread stated he made a mistake and that Psilencers are S4, not S3 as previously stated.

**daedalus**

Wilson wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Wilson wrote:

Is this true?!

I refuse to play that with my nids. Nope.

Nope.

I assume you won't play IG either?

Nope. I might play Astra Millatarum though

Bah. They're still the IG. But they can get 29 S5 shots for about 160 points. Beyond the force bit, I don't how this is much worse.

**easysauce**

agnosto wrote:
To clarify, the person providing information in the Bolter and Chainsword thread stated he made a mistake and that Psilencers are S4, not S3 as previously stated.

wow... thats even better then... psilencers just went from worthless to OMGAWD good...

5+ to insta gib t5?

6 chances to do it with ONE gun?

yes please....

glad to see it because I loved the look of them, but never used them...

how convieniant, I have ~20 lying around unused!

somehow, it must be a gw cash grab to make worthless unused things like these usful again.

same with my terminators! OFF THE SHELF WITH YOU! (which again, must be a cash grab! not like they are THE signature troop of GK's or anything)

**pizzaguardian**

easysauce wrote:
pizzaguardian wrote:
S3 psilencers are essentially worthless except for that lucky roll of 6 to wound (the intended target of force is usually t5 or t6 ). Which requires at least 2 psilencer to target that unit...

well maybe not worthless but not reliable

ummmm no, you are just wrong sorry, st 3, with *6* shots per gun means that even when fishing for 6's you have a decent chance to insta gib stuff... keep in mind, you shouldnt have a huge chance to insta gib stuff, it would be really REALLY op if it was strong as well...

considering that every single other instant death ranged weapon in the game only does it on 6's, and that this one at least has the potential to do it on lower rolls vs t4 and lower, its a huge buff.

Appereantly it is str 4 still. Yet It is still not worthwhile except if the meta allows it. Your main target is either t5 fmc or t6 mc, which vs one you snap fire and vs other you wound on 6's. Not every insta kill weapon need special rule btw. Wraithknight does it fine with range str 10 and lascannon does it well on every generic meq unit. Instant kill is not sth new and not "really op" .

And also obviously it is huge buff, turning something from useless to "you can kill sth if you are lucky". Oh and it is a single purpose weapon, not anti-tank or even good anti infantry.

**ForeverARookie**

Wilson wrote:
Desubot wrote:
If double Gatling psylincers are a thing then 24 ST4 shots should put something down hopefully

Is this true?!

I refuse to play that with my nids. Nope.

Nope.

I assume the big Tyranids are T6 or better, right?

24 shots, means 16 hits at BS4 with Relentless. Wounding on a 6 means 2 1/4 Wounds. What are your saves like? At least 4+? A 4+ save would reduce that to 1 1/4 unsaved wound for 2 Gatling Psilencers. Now, the Dreadknight could cast Force, but that has the possibility of killing him if he rolls too many dice, and I believe Tyranids ar Psykers, so you get extra dice to Deny.

So Tyranid player, I don't think you or anyone else will have to worry about Grey Knights competatively.

**Hulksmash**

easysauce wrote:
agnosto wrote:
To clarify, the person providing information in the Bolter and Chainsword thread stated he made a mistake and that Psilencers are S4, not S3 as previously stated.

wow... thats even better then... psilencers just went from worthless to OMGAWD good...

5+ to insta gib t5?

6 chances to do it with ONE gun?

yes please....

glad to see it because I loved the look of them, but never used them...

how convieniant, I have ~20 lying around unused!

somehow, it must be a gw cash grab to make worthless unused things like these usful again.

same with my terminators! OFF THE SHELF WITH YOU! (which again, must be a cash grab! not like they are THE signature troop of GK's or anything)

Quiet you!!!!!

I'm looking forward to using Terminators again. And I've always loved my DK's. Good thing is now I can use Dreads too which I love!

**agnosto**

ForeverARookie wrote:

So Tyranid player, I don't think you or anyone else will have to worry about Grey Knights competatively.

Unless of course that DK wades into your Carni unit with an activated force sword......

**Quickjager**

easysauce wrote:
pizzaguardian wrote:
S3 psilencers are essentially worthless except for that lucky roll of 6 to wound (the intended target of force is usually t5 or t6 ). Which requires at least 2 psilencer to target that unit...

well maybe not worthless but not reliable

ummmm no, you are just wrong sorry, st 3, with *6* shots per gun means that even when fishing for 6's you have a decent chance to insta gib stuff... keep in mind, you shouldnt have a huge chance to insta gib stuff, it would be really REALLY op if it was strong as well...

considering that every single other instant death ranged weapon in the game only does it on 6's, and that this one at least has the potential to do it on lower rolls vs t4 and lower, its a huge buff.

Of course its a buff, they literally just added Force to it. The problem is that they nerfed Psycannons... 24'' salvo range means the GK workhorse is ffffffff'ed, and we don't got any toys to make up for that loss of mobile firepower. Purgation Squads... I rarely saw them before, I don't expect to see them again now, after all they lost Astral Aim and now are forced to be a short-range stationary weapons platform and they're supposed to somehow compete with Dreadknights for that slot, its a joke I tell ya. The internal balance is weiiiird,

Heavy Support is pretty much only Dreadknight now, Elite slot had potential to be attractive with the Dreadnought moving there but no Psyflemen means that is gone.

**Jidmah**

Wilson wrote:
Desubot wrote:
If double Gatling psylincers are a thing then 24 ST4 shots should put something down hopefully

Is this true?!

I refuse to play that with my nids. Nope.

Nope.

Just deny the force activation? It's not like nids lack warp charges.

**WrentheFaceless**

Yknow, other than the loss of psybolt ammo, I'm not reading much I dont like

Glad I magnetized my storm ravens, back to las cannons with them

Double Psylencer dreadknights lol

So Draigo is a LOW, doesnt make Paladins Troops anymore? Can you still use him as a HQ?

**pretre**

LOW don't count as HQ. Which makes a lot of sense for Draigo since he isn't really part of the command hierarchy.

**daedalus**

Do we know what slot Stormravens are going to fall into now? Are we going to have them in FA still, or are FA slots going to just never be used now?

**Brutishcard**

Wilson wrote:
ForeverARookie wrote:
Everything else I could see working, but the Psycannon tears it. A 24" Salvo is nothing more than a glorified pistol to anything without Relentless!!! The name of the game is movement with the shifting objectives and excessive firepower other factions possess.

Our worst fears are realised in the Psycannon. It was the one anti-armor/monstrous creature man-portable ranged weapon in the Grey Knight arsenal. We don't carry around Missile Launchers, Lascannons, Plasma Guns, Multi-meltas, or any of the other epic weapons the troops of other factions carry. The one thing w had was the Psycannon, and now GW has #&@%@'d it up.

The worst part is that Salvo would have been not only fine, but an improvement if they had just made it 36". Sure the lower profile would only be 18", but at least it would still be useful on the battlefield, before you're close enough to shove your finger up the enemy's nose.

If anyone is wondering why I'm so upset with this issue, is that the bulk of my 10,000 point Pure Grey Knight Army is Purifiers in Rhinos.

For emphasis, I have 41 Purifiers modeled with Psycannons.

I also don't like that Force and Hammerhand can't be cast by models in close combat, which means if you don't kill that rediculously tough monstrous creature in the first turn, you aren't going to.

Force on Psilencers is virtually useless. 6 shots at BS4 (assuming you're stationary) means you'll get 4 hits. Most multi-wound models will be T5 or better. So optimistically assuming the S4 shot is against a T5 enemy, you'll wound on 5+, bringing the average number of hits down to 1 1/3. Most of these Characters will have a 2+ armour save, and even if they don't, they'll have a 3+. So, once again optimistically hoping they'll have "only" a 3+ armour save, you have a 4/9 chance of getting 1 shot through. So the best case scenario, you need 2 Psilencers (Stationary, or 6 Psilencers if they moved) to deal a single wound, and that only has instant death if you passed the Psychic test and were not Denied. Psilencers are STILL worthless, but now they have the Psycannons for company.

Someone's not a happy bunny....

Pretty justifiably! I'm pissed my ghost knights are redundant, and that I have to pay 20 quid to play the death cult assassin squads. It probably cannot be overstated how painful the psycannon nerf is. Same with the loss of psybolts. There is arguably very little point taking any gk unit now as an ally as well as if you were going to ally there are so many better options! Close combat terminators? Thunder hammer storm shield terminators. Close combat squads? Grey hunters. Withering mid range shooting? Guard. And that's only the imperial stuff.

It actually all reads pretty cool, but anyone who has actually played pure gk knows that they will be kerb stomped by a lot of builds. Although that is the fault of the tau / eldar codexes. A lot of the builds in those books will be utterly unanswerable for pure gk.

That TDA does sound badass tho. Although it probably emphasises I how unlucky the guy playing them in white dwarf was considering the librarian was killed by a proxy herald of nurgle. I will not be buying any new models for this purchase that's for sure. Here's hoping they do a better job of blood angels.

**agnosto**

daedalus wrote:
Do we know what slot Stormravens are going to fall into now? Are we going to have them in FA still, or are FA slots going to just never be used now?

Still FA according to the source on the B&C thread.

**WrentheFaceless**

pretre wrote:
LOW don't count as HQ. Which makes a lot of sense for Draigo since he isn't really part of the command hierarchy.

I thought Ghaz had a rule where you could make him your warlord though. As well as logan?

**easysauce**

nope hes just LOW,

but remember, ANY character can be your warlord, not just HQ now.

so good in that you can still take HQ's, he came down in pts, is ap 2 now and always str 8 at least, and gained the portal santci power i think

bad in that he cant be mandatory choice or change to troops anymore. what with everything being scoring now, the latter is irrelevant.

Im in the same boat, only thing I will miss is psybolt ammo, but a lot of other things gained and I can actually feild a pure, competitive GK army from the looks of it, my termies and libbys and GMs will be off the shelf for the first time in years.

not sure why everyone is so down about going from ass2/hvy4 to salvo? you couldnt charge after firing 4 shots anyways...

but my lists also didnt have a single psycannon for the most part after my initial builds has lots but were not successful in winning tournies.

as it is, my list that has won tournies with GK just got ~300pts cheaper with no changes.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

**pretre**

WrentheFaceless wrote:
pretre wrote:
LOW don't count as HQ. Which makes a lot of sense for Draigo since he isn't really part of the command hierarchy.

I thought Ghaz had a rule where you could make him your warlord though. As well as logan?

HQ is different than Warlord.

HQ is your HQ slot, which most detachments require one of. Warlord is just a character in your army that serves as your Warlord.

**Quickjager**

Psychic Pilot rule is no more... ugggggh, I have 4 fraking Razorbacks that are USELESS now.

Termies in Land Raiders gonna be the new metal boxes

...actually I think a break from the hobby is needed now... I don't want to spend money on plastic so my tau and eldar friends can hand me my ass in game... I can sill play against my Blood Angel friend though

EDIT: easysauce go ahead and post your list; especially if you don't understand why people are sad about the psycannon change.

**WrentheFaceless**

pretre wrote:
WrentheFaceless wrote:
pretre wrote:
LOW don't count as HQ. Which makes a lot of sense for Draigo since he isn't really part of the command hierarchy.

I thought Ghaz had a rule where you could make him your warlord though. As well as logan?

HQ is different than Warlord.

HQ is your HQ slot, which most detachments require one of. Warlord is just a character in your army that serves as your Warlord.

Ok i used the wrong terminology then, so I can still have him as my Warlord then?

**pretre**

Quickjager wrote:
Psychic Pilot rule is no more... ugggggh, I have 4 fraking Razorbacks that are USELESS now.

No, you have 4 frakking razorbacks that are razorbacks now. For all you know, they still can ignore stunned/shaken through some other rule.

Either way, people need to take a deep breath and hold out for the codex. Same as every time a new book comes out and the sky falls.

**Red Corsair**

Jidmah wrote:
Wilson wrote:
Desubot wrote:
If double Gatling psylincers are a thing then 24 ST4 shots should put something down hopefully

Is this true?!

I refuse to play that with my nids. Nope.

Nope.

Just deny the force activation? It's not like nids lack warp charges.

It's S4... Just keep fielding that malantrhope for 2+ cover lol. 24 shots for 16 hits for 2.25 wounds.... on a 2+ cover thats garbage, now he is within 24" of your swarm... It's just another temptation for them to waste AI shots on cheaper MC's like daka fexes.

What I find more hilarious is that s4 literally can't wound T8 meaning the most offensive MC in the game still doesn't give a damn, and after t5hat teleporter + 2X gatling silencers they will both be similar in price lol.

The heavy psycanon being salvo 6 is money though, now that it much more worth it. Anything a silencer might gib once in a blue moon those will chew down every turn if not kill outright. 12 s7 rending shots are way better IMO. Won't need to waste the now limited number of WC's on charging it up either. Less random=better.

Keep in mind this is only IF they can dual wield like weapons. SO far so good....

Also this is just speculation but I am betting Draigo is s4 t4 now. No way he is cheaper then logan/calgar/lysander/abbadon and has a flat out better profile in every way. Never made sense for a s5 t5 marine anyway IMO. He'd then have a s7 ap2 sword which puts him in line with an iridescent blade CM unless he powers up with HH. Just a thought I had anyway.

**pretre**

WrentheFaceless wrote:
pretre wrote:
WrentheFaceless wrote:
pretre wrote:
LOW don't count as HQ. Which makes a lot of sense for Draigo since he isn't really part of the command hierarchy.

I thought Ghaz had a rule where you could make him your warlord though. As well as logan?

HQ is different than Warlord.

HQ is your HQ slot, which most detachments require one of. Warlord is just a character in your army that serves as your Warlord.

Ok i used the wrong terminology then, so I can still have him as my Warlord then?

Oh yeah, of course. As long as he's still a character.

**agnosto**

Well, if they make interceptors jet-pack.... (they won't) ...they'd have relentless for the psycannons.

**wuestenfux**

daedalus wrote:
Do we know what slot Stormravens are going to fall into now? Are we going to have them in FA still, or are FA slots going to just never be used now?

In view of the leaked army builder, it will still be in FA.

**WrentheFaceless**

Quickjager wrote:
Psychic Pilot rule is no more... ugggggh, I have 4 fraking Razorbacks that are USELESS now.

Termies in Land Raiders gonna be the new metal boxes

...actually I think a break from the hobby is needed now... I don't want to spend money on plastic so my tau and eldar friends can hand me my ass in game... I can sill play against my Blood Angel friend though

EDIT: easysauce go ahead and post your list; especially if you don't understand why people are sad about the psycannon change.

Ok where did they say they got rid of psychic pilot?

**pretre**

WrentheFaceless wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
Psychic Pilot rule is no more... ugggggh, I have 4 fraking Razorbacks that are USELESS now.

Termies in Land Raiders gonna be the new metal boxes

...actually I think a break from the hobby is needed now... I don't want to spend money on plastic so my tau and eldar friends can hand me my ass in game... I can sill play against my Blood Angel friend though

EDIT: easysauce go ahead and post your list; especially if you don't understand why people are sad about the psycannon change.

Ok where did they say they got rid of psychic pilot?

Pretty sure they didn't, but that didn't stop anyone...

**ForeverARookie**

So... What do we have left?

LoW:
Draigo, who is a better unit generally speaking with the options for Relics, but does not make Paladins Troops anymore.

HQ:
Librarian (Cheaper = better),
Brother Captain/Grandmaster (OK),
Brother Captain Stern (Still not going to play him)
Crowe (looks better, but he's more expensive so we'll see),
Brotherhood Champion (if he's still there it'll mean Crowe isn't the only non-terminator HQ on the list)

Lost:
Grandmaster Mordrak (Replaced with a 1/6 chance Warlord Trait.
All the Inquisitors (In other words the non-expensive HQ options)

Elite:
Techmarine (Lost the Grenade Jockey options)
Purifiers (Soulblaze on everything? slight consolation to the loss of the Psycannon's functionality)
Dreadnought/Venerable Dreadnought (Lost Psyfleman option)
Paladins (much better)

Lost:
Assassins
Warbands

Troops:
Terminators (much better, but lost Justicar Thawn)
Strike Squad (Lost the Psycanon's functionality)

Fast Attack:
Storm Raven (Better missiles, but lost Psybolt)
Interceptor Squads (Lost the functionality of the Psycannon)

Heavy:
Dreadknights (Appointed chosen of GW to be the new backbone of the Grey Knight Codex)
Purgation Squad (Inferior in every way to the Dreadknights)

Other Changes:
Land Raider varients moved to Dedicated Transport.

Lost:
Psybolt on EVERYTHING. The StormRaven, Land Raider Crusader, Razorback, and Rifleman Dreadnought are hit the most heavily.

**Quickjager**

Red Corsair wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Wilson wrote:
Desubot wrote:
If double Gatling psylincers are a thing then 24 ST4 shots should put something down hopefully

Is this true?!

I refuse to play that with my nids. Nope.

Nope.

Just deny the force activation? It's not like nids lack warp charges.

It's S4... Just keep fielding that malantrhope for 2+ cover lol. 24 shots for 16 hits for 2.25 wounds.... on a 2+ cover thats garbage, now he is within 24" of your swarm... It's just another temptation for them to waste AI shots on cheaper MC's like daka fexes.

What I find more hilarious is that s4 literally can't wound T8 meaning the most offensive MC in the game still doesn't give a damn, and after t5hat teleporter + 2X gatling silencers they will both be similar in price lol.

The heavy psycanon being salvo 6 is money though, now that it much more worth it. Anything a silencer might gib once in a blue moon those will chew down every turn if not kill outright. 12 s7 rending shots are way better IMO. Won't need to waste the now limited number of WC's on charging it up either. Less random=better.

Keep in mind this is only IF they can dual wield like weapons. SO far so good....

Also this is just speculation but I am betting Draigo is s4 t4 now. No way he is cheaper then logan/calgar/lysander/abbadon and has a flat out better profile in every way. Never made sense for a s5 t5 marine anyway IMO. He'd then have a s7 ap2 sword which puts him in line with an iridescent blade CM unless he powers up with HH. Just a thought I had anyway.

Hey guess what; you're right about Draigo STR4 and T 4 now.

EDIT: for the record it says so in that guys source, yes I READ entire threads.

**WrentheFaceless**

Not that his 5 toughness did much being in Paladin clumps, was always majority 4.

Str 7, meh still better than str 5

Does he still get to roll on powers?