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this came up in a tourni this weekend.

Two tyranid FMC started on the board. Went into swoop mode on turn one.
Turn two they swooped off the board into ongoing reserves.
Turn three they elected to deepstrike onto the board.

The way i read the rules, No unit may deepstrike onto the board from reserve unless it began the game in reserve. My opponent said that he may elect to enter the battlefield by deepstriking. What are your feelings on the matter.

 sennacherib wrote:
The way i read the rules, No unit may deepstrike onto the board from reserve unless it began the game in reserve.

As far as I can tell, this is correct.
Should have asked him to show you where it said what he was claiming is true.

Also, FMCs don't get the Deep Strike special rule as standard, so I'm not sure how a Tyranid managed to do it (unless I'm forgetting something in the codex!).

But if we change the question to a FMC that does have Deep Strike, like a Daemon, then you still need to stick by all of the rules for Deep Strike. That is, the unit needs to start the game in Reserve, and you must tell your opponent that the unit is entering Deep Strike Reserve when you do so.

So no, a FMC (or any unit, for that matter) cannot start the game on the table, enter Ongoing Reserves and then Deep Strike in the following turn.

On the other hand, if the FMC started in Deep Strike Reserve, it could enter the table, subsequently fly off into Ongoing Reserves and declare that it is going to enter Deep Strike Reserves again, and then Deep Strike back onto the table.

It wouldn't be doing a hell of a lot else in the game, but it seems possible to me.

Thank you.
I reviewed the rules pretty closely but there was some debate about the wording/. I was not sure if the FMC had deepstrike in its codex and since i am not one to argue during a game i just accepted him on his word.

Not asking to clarify what the unit is capable of doing will lead to your loss in many games.
Not from people whom are cheating, but from lack of knowing which of your opponent pieces pose the most threat to your army.

Keep in mind, that this strict reading of the rules, also makes a Mawloc not work if started on the table, swooping hawks cannot start on the table, and Gate of Infinity doesn't work if the unit starts on the table.

It completely breaks the Malefic tree, since no summoned demons started the game in reserve

There is never permission granted to change your flight type when entering from ongoing reserves either.


You choose flight type before you actually make your move and it is too late to do so when you arrive from reserves.

Whichever flight mode the model was in when it left combat airspace is what it must return to the table in.

 sennacherib wrote:
Thank you.
I reviewed the rules pretty closely but there was some debate about the wording/. I was not sure if the FMC had deepstrike in its codex and since i am not one to argue during a game i just accepted him on his word.

TFMC don't get DS from the codex, used to get it from the FMC in 5e/6e when they were consider Jump Infantry from the BRB. In 7th FMC do not appear to get DS by default anymore. IF they have the option to deep strike they have to be swooping on the turn they DS.

So if a unit of Swooping Hawks starts on the board and skyleaps into Ongoing Reserves on Turn 1, they can't then Deep Strike back on in Turn 2 and use their grenade pack attack because they didn't start the game in Deep Strike Reserve? Is this correct?

Please check again. FMCs get DS when swooping or gliding.

In both cases, they act as JumpMC with some additional rules.

Regardless of all that.
The deepstrike special rule states on pg 162 that "the unit must start the game in reserve". Seems like you cannot under any circumstances swoop off of the board and then DS onto the board from ongoing reserves, unless you start the game in reserve.

How does this work with summoned daemons who, say, mishap and end up in ongoing reserves? Do they try to deep strike again, or do they have to walk onto the board edge?

 sennacherib wrote:
Regardless of all that.
The deepstrike special rule states on pg 162 that "the unit must start the game in reserve". Seems like you cannot under any circumstances swoop off of the board and then DS onto the board from ongoing reserves, unless you start the game in reserve.

I've seen this done several times and never queried it but having read the rules properly it does seem now like bending the rules to ensure a deep strike grenade pack attack on turn 2. Which now does not appear to be strictly legal by RAW.

 Spellbound wrote:
How does this work with summoned daemons who, say, mishap and end up in ongoing reserves? Do they try to deep strike again, or do they have to walk onto the board edge?

I think daemons can try to deep strike again as conjured units are counted as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Regardless of all that.
The deepstrike special rule states on pg 162 that "the unit must start the game in reserve". Seems like you cannot under any circumstances swoop off of the board and then DS onto the board from ongoing reserves, unless you start the game in reserve.

I've seen this done several times and never queried it but having read the rules properly it does seem now like bending the rules to ensure a deep strike grenade pack attack on turn 2. Which now does not appear to be strictly legal by RAW.

 Spellbound wrote:
How does this work with summoned daemons who, say, mishap and end up in ongoing reserves? Do they try to deep strike again, or do they have to walk onto the board edge?

I think daemons can try to deep strike again as conjured units are counted as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes.

Arrived from, but never started in reserves?

For all rules purposes is the key phrase. If they are arriving from reserve they must be considered to have been placed in reserve. More specifically DS reserve as the rules dictate they must arrive by DS, and as we know, you can only DS if you are placed in DS reserve at the start of the game.

Read : leaving combat airspace and entering ongoing reserves for FMC's. They cannot change flight modes when they come back on the table. Period. Your friend is wrong.

coredump wrote:
Please check again. FMCs get DS when swooping or gliding.

In both cases, they act as JumpMC with some additional rules.

I have and by the new rules the are not considered Jump pack units. In fact the only mention of jump pack is that in Glide Mode they move, run charge like Jump packs. And swooping again say only that they move like Jump MC, not are treated as, are considered or same as. As such don't get the DS option anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lungpickle wrote:
Read : leaving combat airspace and entering ongoing reserves for FMC's. They cannot change flight modes when they come back on the table. Period. Your friend is wrong.

They have to be swooping to leave Airspace and have to be Swooping to DS, so that is not really an argument against them being able to Deep Strike.

barnowl wrote:

coredump wrote:
Please check again. FMCs get DS when swooping or gliding.

In both cases, they act as JumpMC with some additional rules.

I have and by the new rules the are not considered Jump pack units. In fact the only mention of jump pack is that in Glide Mode they move, run charge like Jump packs. And swooping again say only that they move like Jump MC, not are treated as, are considered or same as. As such don't get the DS option anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lungpickle wrote:
Read : leaving combat airspace and entering ongoing reserves for FMC's. They cannot change flight modes when they come back on the table. Period. Your friend is wrong.

They have to be swooping to leave Airspace and have to be Swooping to DS, so that is not really an argument against them being able to Deep Strike.

page 65, BRB, jump units: 'units that are described as "moving like" jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules.

page 69, BRB swooping FMC, "if a flying monstrous creature is swooping, it moves exactly like a jump monstrous creature, with the following exceptions"
page 68, BRB, gliding FMC "if a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves, runs, and charges exactly like a jump monstrous creature"

pretty much same wording as 6th. they get DS because they're jump units, regardless of flight mode.

 gigasnail wrote:

barnowl wrote:

coredump wrote:
Please check again. FMCs get DS when swooping or gliding.

In both cases, they act as JumpMC with some additional rules.

I have and by the new rules the are not considered Jump pack units. In fact the only mention of jump pack is that in Glide Mode they move, run charge like Jump packs. And swooping again say only that they move like Jump MC, not are treated as, are considered or same as. As such don't get the DS option anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lungpickle wrote:
Read : leaving combat airspace and entering ongoing reserves for FMC's. They cannot change flight modes when they come back on the table. Period. Your friend is wrong.

They have to be swooping to leave Airspace and have to be Swooping to DS, so that is not really an argument against them being able to Deep Strike.

page 65, BRB, jump units: 'units that are described as "moving like" jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules.

page 69, BRB swooping FMC, "if a flying monstrous creature is swooping, it moves exactly like a jump monstrous creature, with the following exceptions"
page 68, BRB, gliding FMC "if a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves, runs, and charges exactly like a jump monstrous creature"

pretty much same wording as 6th. they get DS because they're jump units, regardless of flight mode.

I stand corrected. I had missed the rule on pg65. That means we are down to if Ongoing Reserves allows for DS.

FMC have DS, per pg65.
FMC that leave combat airspace are Swooping, and DS FMC are Swooping on arrival so meet the rules for not changing flight mode.

Man, I have to remember to read the entire thread before answering... both my comments had already been answered.


Look, it is true that the DS rules *do* state the model has to start in reserves to be allowed to DS. But if we treat that as 100% literal, it really messes up a lot of other parts of the game, parts that we know are supposed to work.

The rules talk about the mawloc starting on the board before burrowing... do we really think the intention is it burrow, and then is forced to walk onto the board?

Gate of Infinity, do we really think that the intention is the psyker must start in reserve if he ever wants to use that spell?

Summoned demons... wtf? They can't exist, the rules say to use the DS rules, and the DS rules say they can't DS. And if they mishap, the *definitely* can't DS on.

So HIWPI is generally a Yes. While RAW is a possible a No, but ends up breaking other units.

barnowl wrote:

FMC have DS, per pg65.
FMC that leave combat airspace are Swooping, and DS FMC are Swooping on arrival so meet the rules for not changing flight mode.

The rules state: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:

The key words are "move exactly like". It does not state that an FMC IS a Jump creature, just that it moves like one. Thus, an FMC does not get Deep Strike and cannot, unless otherwise stated in the unit's specific profile, deep strike on the board.

 tydrace wrote:

barnowl wrote:

FMC have DS, per pg65.
FMC that leave combat airspace are Swooping, and DS FMC are Swooping on arrival so meet the rules for not changing flight mode.

The rules state: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:

The key words are "move exactly like". It does not state that an FMC IS a Jump creature, just that it moves like one. Thus, an FMC does not get Deep Strike and cannot, unless otherwise stated in the unit's specific profile, deep strike on the board.

I'm not even part of this discussion and read why you are wrong 5 posts above you:

 gigasnail wrote:
page 65, BRB, jump units: 'units that are described as "moving like" jump units follow all of the rules for jump units, and use the same special rules..

Please read posts by other users, not just the OP

 BlackTalos wrote:

 tydrace wrote:

barnowl wrote:

FMC have DS, per pg65.
FMC that leave combat airspace are Swooping, and DS FMC are Swooping on arrival so meet the rules for not changing flight mode.

The rules state: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:

The key words are "move exactly like". It does not state that an FMC IS a Jump creature, just that it moves like one. Thus, an FMC does not get Deep Strike and cannot, unless otherwise stated in the unit's specific profile, deep strike on the board.

I'm not even part of this discussion and read why you are wrong 5 posts above you:

Heh, I must have overseen that one. Then I'll bring up the following points:

Under Swooping: It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
Under Deep Strike: In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

So they do have Deep Strike they just can't use it.

There are already provisions for how DS FMC arrive.

 tydrace wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 tydrace wrote:

barnowl wrote:

FMC have DS, per pg65.
FMC that leave combat airspace are Swooping, and DS FMC are Swooping on arrival so meet the rules for not changing flight mode.

The rules state: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions:

The key words are "move exactly like". It does not state that an FMC IS a Jump creature, just that it moves like one. Thus, an FMC does not get Deep Strike and cannot, unless otherwise stated in the unit's specific profile, deep strike on the board.

I'm not even part of this discussion and read why you are wrong 5 posts above you:

Heh, I must have overseen that one. Then I'll bring up the following points:

Under Swooping: It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".
Under Deep Strike: In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

So they do have Deep Strike they just can't use it.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

Again, you're wrong. Keep trying.

 tydrace wrote:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

Again, you're wrong. Keep trying.

Have we clarified if a FMC has to be in swoop mode when they deep strike?

It would be nice for summoned bloodthirsters to not have to wait TWO turns to assault.

And it seems there's a consensus that this has to come down to a HIWPI?

I think people are forgetting one very key rule:

Codex trumps rule book.

If a unit has a special rule that allows it to leave the board, and says that it will then arrive by deep strike during another turn, then it has special permission granted by its codex that allows it to. Thus, regardless of whether or not the rule book says you can, you can so long as the codex allows it.

If nothing else, this allows Daemonology and the mawloc both to function, as both state that the unit will arrive by deepstrike. (Summoned demons treating the rules for daemonology as their codex for this purpose.)

 gigasnail wrote:
There are already provisions for how DS FMC arrive.

Because some FMCs have deep strike (like Daemons). It doesn't mean FMC inherently have deep strike