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Due to 2" model spacing, is there any value in the small blast weapons?

It depends on what the blast can do. A S10 ap1 armorbane blast is clearly going to threaten tanks, and with any decent BS probably hit it. A frag grenade throw by a marine is S3 ap-, and has a decent possibility to whiff.

The best small blasts usually shoot more than once, or are outright devastating to a particular target. Two prime examples are wyverns and thunderfire cannons. Both are cheap, effective against multiple targets, relatively accurate, and barrage so they can snipe models.

I have personally have made great use of Blastmasters S8AP3 pinning , ignore cover.

1/3 chance of a direct hit regardless of BS, then factor in BS modifiers. I'm not going to attempt the math, but I think that's a pretty solid game mechanic for most people. Lower BS armies will benefit from the 1/3 chance of direct hit, Higher BS armies benefit even more with BS modifiers.

Mechanics of small blast aside, the special rules associated with it make it "weak" or "strong". Wyverns and Thunderfires are amazing thanks to barrage. Twinlinked and shred make wyverns insanely efficient.

Frag grenades are pretty weak, but the chance to kill 3 models over 1 might be worth it some times. Kind of boils down to each individual scenario.

Also, forcing your opponent to spread out slows him down, and makes him make harder choices during deployment and what not. Making your opponent play to your tune is an undervalued concept.

Not everyone always positions their models 2" apart. Sometimes you just can't position your models like that. I have no problems with small blast weapons.

Small blast weapons are great for shooting at units bunched up in cover. I know you might think you would want to shoot people in the open but you can often hit 4 or 5 models with a small blast marker if they are in cover compared to 1 model on open ground, so even if they save 2 with a best case 4+ cover save you're still killing more than you would otherwise.

Then if the small blast is ignores cover....good times.

The only ignores cover I know of are the Blast masters and flamers so can you guys tell me about all the others?

 Filch wrote:
The only ignores cover I know of are the Blast masters and flamers so can you guys tell me about all the others?

From codex marines:
One of the TFC’s options ignore’s cover
Any blast weapon on the LotD (ML, PC) has the ignore cover rule.
The WW has a large blast that ignores, but we are talking small in this thread.

I think the IG have an order that lets them ignore.
Tau markerlights a/o other tricks as well.
probably a few other ways to grant it.

Are they too weak? Yes, because of coherency rules.

Consider the following:
Let's compare firing, say, a bolter versus throwing a grenade. Now, as the grenade is weaker (S3) and not as good against armour (AP-), we need to ensure that our small blast is hitting AT LEAST 3 GEQ or Orks to outdo the bolter's two shots at the same range. Essentially, that means if we have a shot which can even do that at all (unlikely), we're not going to be able to miss or else it'll be worse overall. The chance to not scatter with the grenade at BS4, however, is a meager 4/9 - considerably worse than the 6/9 equivalent odds for just firing one shot of a bolter. In fact, the odds of hitting that no scatter shot is the same odds as hitting both bolter shots. In such a situation, you actually need to be hitting at least 4 models with the grenade to not be outdone. Anyone who's played the game knows that is patently a farce.

In fact, this is not even cherry picking. Assuming there's some small gaps between models, but otherwise someone has been an idiot and clumped all their guys together, you need them to form a 6" diameter circle of almost completely solid models to ensure the same odds of hitting as firing a single BS4 shot normally. Your chances to not scatter are so bad that anything above BS2 is less likely to hit their intended (infantry) target that just firing normally. As small blasts are rarely powerful enough to be anti-tank/MC, the best we can hope for is to fire at a terminator sized base. Even then, you are barely better off with a small blast at BS3, and still worse off at BS4. The odds are just terrible.

Effectively, you tend to pay a premium for weaker guns which are less likely to hit than their equivalent normal weapons. Unless you're playing Orks or otherwise have innate TL abilities, you should pretty much discard all small blast weapons out of hand unless they're exceptional. Even in the case of the blastmaster, you'd be better off if it was a simple missile launcher with ignores cover. They're good in fantasy because the tight formations mean you get loads of hits. In 40k, where you can't even ensure you'll get more than one hit, two at best, you're literally praying your opponent slips up. If they do, you may make your gun look useful. If they don't, you've paid over the odds for a weapon which hits less than a normal weapon.

So yes, in my opinion the fact that making a gun into a splash damage weapon actually makes it worse than a normal weapon is inexcusable and they are most assuredly "too weak" in that sense. 2D6" scatter is just way too much for such a minimal splash effect, and the idea that grenades can be off target by further than someone can sprint in game is pretty telling. There's a reason no-one ever throws their limited grenades and it's not ammo conservation - it's because they're garbage.

I think 1D6 scatter for small blasts would be something GW should look at when they redo the rules, but then its not high on the list.

 MagicMan wrote:
I think 1D6 scatter for small blasts would be something GW should look at when they redo the rules, but then its not high on the list.

Wrong guys.
Do the Math, a small blast is always more accurate than the single shot at BS value assuming a 28 mm base. Don't look at small blasts as a chance to hit more targets but as a bonus accuracy. Then you have all the following as a bonus:

1) For anything bigger than a guardsmen the accuracy bonus increases even more.
2) You can effectively hit more targets.
3) If you miss your intended target you still got a chance to hit something else.
4) Chariots can't assign the hit to the rider.
There are many parts of the rules that could be written better math wise, but this one is not.

Frag grenades were never worth it.

Plasma cannons are nice, but significantly weaker than they used to be compared to other weaponry.

Just depends on the weapon. Single small blasts dont amount for much on models with less than 4 BS. Even with BS4, you still on average miss your original target by .5 inches.

If you can drop multiple blasts or are using barrage you can score lots of hits where you need em, but otherwise its usually better to take more reliable weaponry.

Spoletta wrote:

 MagicMan wrote:
I think 1D6 scatter for small blasts would be something GW should look at when they redo the rules, but then its not high on the list.

Wrong guys.
Do the Math, a small blast is always more accurate than the single shot at BS value assuming a 28 mm base. Don't look at small blasts as a chance to hit more targets but as a bonus accuracy. Then you have all the following as a bonus:

1) For anything bigger than a guardsmen the accuracy bonus increases even more.
2) You can effectively hit more targets.
3) If you miss your intended target you still got a chance to hit something else.
4) Chariots can't assign the hit to the rider.
There are many parts of the rules that could be written better math wise, but this one is not.

I did do the maths. Your chance to hit a 25mm base assuming you aimed at the centre (the optimal location) is the sum of 1/3 plus 2/3 multiplied by the chance to roll anything under or equal to BS+1 (to accomodate width). This gives:
BS3: 4/9
BS4: 14/27
BS5: 11/18

Compared to normal odds (blast in italics, normal in bold):
BS3: 8/18 , 9/18
BS4: 14/27 , 18/27
BS5: 11/18 , 15/18

Literally every single odd is worse. It's not in any way "bonus accuracy", so I have no idea what maths you're doing but it's wrong. They're less accurate, unlikely to hit multiple targets and usually weaker due to potential of multiple hits per shot. Unless your opponent is using a horde or not spread out, they're just strictly worse.

Used the same math, though i considered that a small base radius is bigger than 0,5 inches, so a 2" scatter results in an hit.

Edit: Ok checked, it's smaller than 0.5 inches (funny how 0,02 cm can alter the math this way, if i paint my bases they are gonna get hit). This means that it is more accurate on anything bigger than a guardsman, but not on the small bases.
Next time someone points a small blast at my gaunts and scatters 2" i'm gonna say " Sorry sir, i have less than 200 microns of paint on my base, so that's a miss"

I've practically made my Pask Executioner and PC's + Executioner and PC's an auto include in my lists now.

10 S7 AP2 small blasts with preferred enemy will kill practically anything (not a vehicle) In 1 or 2 rounds. Having multiple deadly small blasts instead of one or two large blasts is way better as you do more damage to MC's and have more reliable odds of doing at least some damage.

Ok now we are getting into the land of absurd but actually placing the center of the blast on the center of the model is not the optimal choice, you should place it slightly away from it, this way if it scatters 2 you still got a good chance (ad hoc around 40%) to hit.

Redoing the math this way you get for BS3:

33% + 11.11% (1/9) + 2,9% (1/9*0.4*2/3) = 48.55% (Instead of 50%)

For BS 4:

33% + 27,78% + 3.7% = 64,48% (Instead of 66.66%)

For BS 5:

33% + 41.66% + 4.4% = 74,7% (instead of 83.3%)


So excluding BS 5 which is quite rarely a game situation (what BS 5 small blasts are there?) and BS 2 where is obviously better the small blast, if you place the center correctly then you have pretty much the same chances to hit with a small blast and a straight shot. This is still considering a guardsman, anything bigger and the small blast wins big.

Don't you have to center the blast over a model?

The center of the blast has to be on the target model base.

Don't know if it changed with 7E, but i remember reading on the actual rulebook that you can place it anywhere as long as the center of the blast is inside the target's model base.

That said, i imagine that if i were to say that i'm centering the blast 200 microns to the left of the model center my adversary would punch me.

Hard.

With good reasons.

Instead, just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the 3" blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model (see diagram), or its hull if the target is a vehicle.

Nothing about being centered on the target's base, just that the center of the blast marker (the hole) must be over the target's base.

Most of this analysis seems to assume you're using a Blast to target a single model - general the target is way bigger than that. Having said that, the way I roll scatter, you could have a squadron of baneblades and I'd still miss :(

minigun762 wrote:Due to 2" model spacing, is there any value in the small blast weapons?

Small blast weapons have been crappy as long as there's been 2" coherency, which pretty much means forever. Yes, there are fringe cases where an opponent might not be spread all the way out, but even at 1" coherency, you're not likely getting many models.

The best way to think of small blast weapons is as an assault/heavy 1 that occasionally gets lucky and becomes assault/heavy 1-3. That and they are slightly better against large targets like monstrous creatures. Even with low BS it's pretty hard to miss a riptide or a land raider entirely with a plasma cannon.

 Ailaros wrote:

minigun762 wrote:Even with low BS it's pretty hard to miss a riptide or a land raider entirely with a plasma cannon.

Oh no it's not!

If small blasts were multiple blasts like multiple barrage I'd consider using them.

A Plasma Cannon is nice, but expensive and unless I'm getting the points out of it, they simply aren't worth taking when at most I'll be covering 2 models on a direct hit against any competent player spacing their models out within coherency. If Plasma Cannons were Heavy 2 and followed Barrage rules, maybe, maybe then they would have been worth their points and the risk of out right losing a 40+ point model that is usually Infantry and squishy as all hell.

Hell, If Plasma Cannons has a second rule to them that made them assault 2 Rapid fire I'd consider them. Least that way you aren't doubly gimped from taking them and forever trying to make a use of them and never able to fire the bloody things when you moved.

Small blasts are also devastating vs. the initial all circled up deepstrike formation. Plasma cannons were the bane of my teleporting necrons 'and' grey knights.

Small blasts are sometimes underwhelming on their own. But when you get a multiple barrage small blast weapon or artillery unit, they're doing great.

It happens cause the first blast's initial placing might cover just 1 guy with squad members being spread 2' away from each other. But than every hit on the scatter dice almost guarantees at very least 2 models to be under the blast marker if they're in a line formation; and more often than not it's 3 or 4 if they're in a loose blob formation. And scattered blasts also have nice chances of hitting more than 1 model.

I play orks and use lobbas. A unit of 1 usually does nothing. 3 and more are devastating. The effectiveness of multiple barrage small blast weaponry reaches it's peak when you have 3+ of them.

I think people are overlooking a key bit to blasts. The way I use them (S9 AP4 Heavy Venom Cannon on a walking Hive Tyrant in 750 and 500pt games), that's a potent sniper rifle. Models are removed based on proximity to the center hole, so I drop a blast marker on a squad of Blah Blahs, the hole right on top of that pesky Plasma Gun, if I scatter and hit something else, oh well still a hit, if I whiff it, oh well I missed my shot just like so many bad rolls in the game, but if I get that magical hit or the scatter is negligible, then that AP2 gunner is gone. No Look Out Sir available since he isn't a character, and that's one less target that can hurt the Tyrant herself. Most players will put plasma in the back, so the front line acts as a shield for the important bits, but now they have nowhere to hide. It's just about that one specific target, not taking out a cluster.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
I think people are overlooking a key bit to blasts. The way I use them (S9 AP4 Heavy Venom Cannon on a walking Hive Tyrant in 750 and 500pt games), that's a potent sniper rifle. Models are removed based on proximity to the center hole, so I drop a blast marker on a squad of Blah Blahs, the hole right on top of that pesky Plasma Gun, if I scatter and hit something else, oh well still a hit, if I whiff it, oh well I missed my shot just like so many bad rolls in the game, but if I get that magical hit or the scatter is negligible, then that AP2 gunner is gone. No Look Out Sir available since he isn't a character, and that's one less target that can hurt the Tyrant herself. Most players will put plasma in the back, so the front line acts as a shield for the important bits, but now they have nowhere to hide. It's just about that one specific target, not taking out a cluster.

If it's not barrage than you're doing it wrong. Regular blasts remove casualties from the front.

Yup.

And yeah, small blasts were nearly slightly okay with multiple barrage. The problem is that most weapons that followed the multiple barrage rule tended to have low S, bad Ap, or both. The multiple barrage rule never made imperial guard mortars worth taking by itself.

In any case, the confusion really makes me pine for the older days. 4th ed specifically went out of its way to explain that the reason your opponent didn't have to take casualties from the models directly under the blast template specifically was so that you couldn't use them as an absurd uber-sniper-rifle. And now... well... barrage weapons are...

... which is especially curious given that they made sniper rifles worse...

 koooaei wrote:


If it's not barrage than you're doing it wrong. Regular blasts remove casualties from the front.

Why yes, yes I am. I really need to pay more attention...

What the people who claim blasts are less accurate seem to miss, is that when it misses its not like a solid shot "wasted", it lands somehwere.

Even at max coherency, against bigger squads-something will probably take the hit.



Also, comparison of bolter fire to frag grenade? big no-no.
They are weaker than a double-tap bolter against scattered enemies, but when a situation of clumped units come up? frag away. its effect does not come from actually being ever thrown, buy by the fact you CAN throw one, forcing the enemy to scatter.
After all, without and AoE attacks-there is never a reason for the enemy not to sit in tight formations. the grenade just serves as a method to make the hordes to scatter, the unit that most benefits from tight formations (as when scattered, the rear is too far from the front.)