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 Ashiraya wrote:

No, they are 25 or 35 or whatever. The exact specifics are really not important as much as the general size. The end result is somewhere in the 300 cm area, which, as said, is not that out of place.

Or whatever... Your lowest estimate 25mm is almost 40% less than the actual figure of 40mm. That is a massive error.

No, it is 9.84251968503 feet, which fits in the

 Ashiraya wrote:
nine-ten feet

When talking about a height of a person, I'd say 25cm error is not 'close enough.'

I said, so what is your point?

That your scale assessments are totally wrong.

Edit: I went and measured my friend's Paladin Apothecary, and he's 40 mm, or four meters in 'real' 40K. Not that far off, and does not impair the point. Assuming 1/100 scale, I'd actually argue the Terminator is a tad large, as four meters is something I'd expect off a Primarch, not a Terminator. Maybe 1/70 or 1/80 would be more accurate for the models.

As you noticed! And of course if we forget your giant marines, and go with studio number of seven feet (Terminators might be almost eight), we find that your scale estimation is even more wrong. Yes, there is a scale error between Marine and IG models, but it is about 10%, not 50% as you seem to think.

Wait a sec arnt vehicles generally a completely different scale from the infantry models meaning the barge would be "slightly" smaller than compared to if it was based on the infantry?


Like the rhinos are super tiny compared to regular marines or even guardsmen.

 Desubot wrote:
Wait a sec arnt vehicles generally a completely different scale from the infantry models meaning the barge would be "slightly" smaller than compared to if it was based on the infantry?


Like the rhinos are super tiny compared to regular marines or even guardsmen.

That is common conception, but at least FW doesn't seem to think it is the case. Their publications list Rhino to be 6.6 metres long (That's actually decent sized APC), which is pretty close if you assume it to be to scale with the infantry. The reason why it seems that the infantry couldn't fit in the transports is the heroic scale; the models are way bulkier than they would be in 'reality.'

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
A metal Grey Knight Terminator stands 3cm tall. That would make him 18 foot tall according to your scale.

(Just going to point out, that if a 3cm Grey Knight Terminator is 1/100, then that would make him 3cm x 100 = 300 cm tall, or about nine-ten feet. Which really is not that unreasonable at all. I mean, Crimson will hate it regardless, but it will not be beyond what some canon fluff has mentioned, so it's not like there is no precedent.)

Which again, would put the 1cm tall Flames of War infantryman (which is specifically noted as being 15mm (1/100) scale) at only 3.28 foot tall.

 Crimson wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Wait a sec arnt vehicles generally a completely different scale from the infantry models meaning the barge would be "slightly" smaller than compared to if it was based on the infantry?


Like the rhinos are super tiny compared to regular marines or even guardsmen.

That is common conception, but at least FW doesn't seem to think it is the case. Their publications list Rhino to be 6.6 metres long (That's actually decent sized APC), which is pretty close if you assume it to be to scale with the infantry. The reason why it seems that the infantry couldn't fit in the transports is the heroic scale; the models are way bulkier than they would be in 'reality.'

How are 10x 12' tall armored space marines, plus a driver and a gunner, supposed to fit in a 6.6 meter long vehicle? that doesn't add up.

 Ghaz wrote:

Which again, would put the 1cm tall Flames of War infantryman (which is specifically noted as being 15mm (1/100) scale) at only 3.28 foot tall.

But that is crazy too! If your average human is 10mm, then it is not 15mm game! In 15mm game your average human is 15mm tall (or maybe a bit more if 15mm is the eye level, I don't know what is the convention with that scale.)
In 1/100 scale average person should be about 17mm (ie. 1% of the real height.)

That's what I get for trying to measure one that's been based. Is this any better?

 kronk wrote:

How are 10x 12' tall armored space marines, plus a driver and a gunner, supposed to fit in a 6.6 meter long vehicle? that doesn't add up.

They aren't, which isn't a problem as there are no 12' tall marines. Ten seven foot marines and the driver might fit though (I don't think Rhino has a separate gunner.)
M113 is 4.86 metres and is meant for 13 people. It is pretty similar shape to the Rhino, but much smaller. Rhino is 1.4 times as long, 1.7 as wide and 2 times as tall (over four and half times the volume!) So it doesn't seem completely infeasible to me that the Marines could fit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
That's what I get for trying to measure one that's been based. Is this any better?

Yep, 15mm to the eyes (like 28mm scale is 28mm to the eyes) about 17mm total height, perfect 1/100 scale.

Crimson wrote:
Or whatever... Your lowest estimate 25mm is almost 40% less than the actual figure of 40mm. That is a massive error.

Not as massive as you think. Thanks to heroic scale, the marginals are colossal. Just look at the models! The thickness of the bootsoles, the helmets... The bootsoles of the Guardsman model is what, the equivalent of 20 cm?

When talking about a height of a person, I'd say 25cm error is not 'close enough.'

I could have given you a more precise measurement, but given that we are debating plastic representations that are inaccurate at best, your 25cm marginal might actually be close enough.

That your scale assessments are totally wrong.

Whereas here, I could have spent a lot of time getting them more precise. Not very relevant to the original point, so I didn't.

As you noticed! And of course if we forget your giant marines, and go with studio number of seven feet (Terminators might be almost eight), we find that your scale estimation is even more wrong.

Just going to point this out so we don't have to do this little dance each time:

You wanting a source to be more canon than others does not make it so. Your preferences are not the same thing as an objective truth. The distinction is important.

All fluff in 40K is equally canon or noncanon. Believe it or not, a snippet from a codex is not more canon than a description from a BL book, despite you liking the former more. YOUR OPINION IS NOT AN OBJECTIVE TRUTH. Propagating it as such is misleading.

Do we have this established? Good, we can move on.

Yes, there is a scale error between Marine and IG models, but it is about 10%, not 50% as you seem to think.

Really?! Let me check. Whoops, seems there's canon fluff which disagrees with you!

Pg.94 25 for 25 – The Last Detail wrote:‘It’ll be dark soon,’ the boy’s father said. ‘We should perhaps stay here another night and then set off at dawn.’ ‘No time,’ the Astartes said. Now that he was upright he seemed even huger, half as tall again as the man in front of him, his hands as big as shovels, his chest as wide as a dining table. ‘I see in the dark. You can follow me.’”

Crimson wrote:That is common conception, but at least FW doesn't seem to think it is the case. Their publications list Rhino to be 6.6 metres long (That's actually decent sized APC), which is pretty close if you assume it to be to scale with the infantry. The reason why it seems that the infantry couldn't fit in the transports is the heroic scale; the models are way bulkier than they would be in 'reality.'

On the other hand, if it is true that Rhinos are not even 7 meters long, then it would invalidate a huge amount of canon artwork and fluff on not only the Rhino but also its occupants. Look at pretty much any art of Marines. Imagine that they are seven feet tall, for the sake of the argument. You would never fit ten of these guys into a <7 meter rhino, unless you argue that all this art and stuff mentioning proportions is wrong. Hell, even if you'd somehow squeeze them in, I have lots of fluff here mentioning a squad being able to fit in with room to spare.
But since you argue more prevalent fluff is inherently more canon, I assume you would never presume to do such.

Ghaz wrote:
Which again, would put the 1cm tall Flames of War infantryman (which is specifically noted as being 15mm (1/100) scale) at only 3.28 foot tall.

Which only tells me 40K scale is fethed right to hell, really. Hell, just look at the drop pods. In the fluff they are dozens of meters tall. They are arguably not if the model is scaled correctly to Guardsmen!

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Anyway: Please, guys. We are never going to reach a consensus on this. Can we return to the Battle Barges? Pretty please with sugar on top?

 Ashiraya wrote:


Which only tells me 40K scale is fethed right to hell, really. Hell, just look at the drop pods. In the fluff they are dozens of meters tall. They are arguably not if the model is scaled correctly to Guardsmen!

Dozens of meters tall? Where? That would put them solidly on par with titans in terms of size. Using the minimum of "dozens" to mean 2 dozen, that would put a drop pod at 80ft tall...even just 1 dozen would be about 33% taller than the largest battle tanks today are long, from barrel to butt.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:


Which only tells me 40K scale is fethed right to hell, really. Hell, just look at the drop pods. In the fluff they are dozens of meters tall. They are arguably not if the model is scaled correctly to Guardsmen!

Dozens of meters tall? Where? That would put them solidly on par with titans in terms of size. Using the minimum of "dozens" to mean 2 dozen, that would put a drop pod at 80ft tall...even just 1 dozen would be about 33% taller than the largest battle tanks today are long, from barrel to butt.

Just as an anecdote as I do not want to derail further:

Pg.112 25 for 25 – The Last Detail
wrote:“In an explosion of concrete and soil, a behemoth thundered to earth. It was dozens of metres tall, painted midnight blue, and on its multi-faceted sides was painted the sigil of the double-headed axe. It scattered the cultists through the air with the force of its impact, and in its wake came another, and another, and then two more. It was as if a series of great metal castles had suddenly been hurled to earth. With a scream of straining metal, long hatches fell down from the sides of these monstrous apparitions, as though they were the petals opening on a flower.”

Well if we're unleashing the gates of insanity, why not just play the planetkiller? I mean that would only be the size of your local shopping mall.

pax_imperialis wrote:
Well if we're unleashing the gates of insanity, why not just play the planetkiller? I mean that would only be the size of your local shopping mall.

i wanna see one, its no my dream home even though i have never seen it

 Lamoura wrote:
So ummm what about a smalller ship that a chaos warband would use as i flagship? ;n; I'm to poor to make anything as big as your all saying

There are no classes of void-faring vessels that would be small enough to have on the table in a game of 40K. All of these ships are freakin' gargantuan.

Objection! The Manta is actually fully capable of spaceflight. I think it doesn't have an FTL but for in-system operations it's completely capable.

 Bludbaff wrote:
Objection! The Manta is actually fully capable of spaceflight. I think it doesn't have an FTL but for in-system operations it's completely capable.

Which makes it not a Void-Farer. If it can't do a Warp Jump, then it doesn't matter for this discussion.

A Valkyrie is capable of trans-orbital flight, that doesn't make it a Void-farer.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. In Imperial Armour 9/10 you've got "Void Hardened Armour" ~ armour hardened against suit breaches in the vacuum of space, not against the warp. Likewise the void-born background in the Rogue Trader rpg describes such characters as "not born on one of the Emperor's worlds, but instead in the vast depths of space - perhaps even in the warp itself", plus you've got void shields, which are a very different thing from Gellar Fields.

Void appears to mean the realspace, not the twisted expanse of the Empyrean.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Thanks for reminding me that I never got to play the glory that is Epic: Armageddon...

I'd just like to interject with the off-topic comment of: nothing stopping you. Least not in terms of rules and the growing number of proxy minis.

For the on-topic discussion: what Crimson said. +1.

Remodel the floor of your LGS and you'd have about a 1/4 of your battlebarge to play on.

Also, Calling SM miniatures 1/100 is hilariously inaccurate when a tactical marine towers over a Sherman in the same scale.

To get back on the OP's question if you wanted to be semi believable you could build something in the range of 3 to 4ft and say its a smaller ship. Since obviously the scale of the official model are off, you should be fine.

 Ir0njack wrote:
To get back on the OP's question if you wanted to be semi believable you could build something in the range of 3 to 4ft and say its a smaller ship. Since obviously the scale of the official model are off, you should be fine.

thank you i can probably do that ^w^

 Ir0njack wrote:
To get back on the OP's question if you wanted to be semi believable you could build something in the range of 3 to 4ft and say its a smaller ship. Since obviously the scale of the official model are off, you should be fine.

The smallest capital ship in BFG was the Cobra Class destroyer and it was still 1.5 kilometers long, just a little shorter than an Imperial Star Destroyer.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:
To get back on the OP's question if you wanted to be semi believable you could build something in the range of 3 to 4ft and say its a smaller ship. Since obviously the scale of the official model are off, you should be fine.

The smallest capital ship in BFG was the Cobra Class destroyer and it was still 1.5 kilometers long, just a little shorter than an Imperial Star Destroyer.

so would it fit in game?

Would something roughly the size of a football field fit in your games?

Build like a 4.5 ft long 1.5ft high ship, if anyone complains about the scale tell them it's a recently discovered STC for smaller scout space craft capable of void or warp travel, denounce any further questions as HERESY!

 Gashrog wrote:
I don't think that word means what you think it means. In Imperial Armour 9/10 you've got "Void Hardened Armour" ~ armour hardened against suit breaches in the vacuum of space, not against the warp. Likewise the void-born background in the Rogue Trader rpg describes such characters as "not born on one of the Emperor's worlds, but instead in the vast depths of space - perhaps even in the warp itself", plus you've got void shields, which are a very different thing from Gellar Fields.

Void appears to mean the realspace, not the twisted expanse of the Empyrean.

And even so, those massive ships that ply the trade lanes between worlds, such as the Chartist vessels, are still Void-farers. These ships are still several hundreds of meters in length.

These other, smaller vessels mentioned as being space-capable are still not Void-farers because they lack the fuel and non-Warp engines that permits the Chartist vessels (for example) to make the "slow drive" between stars within a given person's lifetime (such routes are noted to take years... which is still fething zooming right along when you consider interstellar distances). The Lightning Strike Fighter, for example, can operate in space... but it is not a Void-Farer. It cannot, under its own power, travel from one star to another.

So anybody wanna take a stab at rules for it?

Depends, I think, on whether it would be something that is treated as a unit or fortification, or a contestable piece of armed terrain (like an ADL), or if it is just "terrain".

As being "offboard artillery", something of this scale would be, like, Large Blast D-Weapon, Ignores Cover, with Armourbane, Fleshbane and... Everything-Bane. The only way to survive it is to not get hit by it, or have some sort of ++ Save that isnt armour based.

ETA: As balance, I would state that it can fire only every 3 turns (those things take a long time to charge up/reload). Pick a point on the battlefield, and then roll for Scatter (orbital strikes are anything but pin-point accurate) 2d6". Wherever the Scatter dice indicates the blast lands, center the Large Blast marker over that point, and kill any model or unit underneath it.

I'd say just model it to be about the same size as a Manta, and use those rules as a starting point.

It'd be easier if you had Orks, then they could just loot the thing

2x210 wrote:
Build like a 4.5 ft long 1.5ft high ship, if anyone complains about the scale tell them it's a recently discovered STC for smaller scout space craft capable of void or warp travel, denounce any further questions as HERESY!

okay i will do that but say only another heretic could understand what im talking about ^3^