Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Well, I mean its not a perfect method, but then a template never has been.
A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head. - Maxim 12 - The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries
xXWeaponPrimeXx, Why not just have a tiny marker, the size of the center hole in the current markers, and instructions to measure to the marker to determine if they are within X?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 23:20:54
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
JinxDragon wrote: xXWeaponPrimeXx,
Why not just have a tiny marker, the size of the center hole in the current markers, and instructions to measure to the marker to determine if they are within X?
That makes sense enough.
Lord Commissar wrote: All major GT's have had it to where EVERYTHING under a blast marker is hit. 5th floor or ground.
That doesn't though :( I mean, I get it. Ease of interpretation and all, but its not feasible.
A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head. - Maxim 12 - The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries
deviantduck wrote: You choose a model that is within direct line of sight of the shooter. You center of the blast over the model. if the blast is 6 inches above the model, or 6 feet, everything underneath is hit, even if it's on a different level and out of sight of the blast or the shooter. You just need LoS on the initial target model.
but what about 1mm above the model?
for example, there are 10 models in a ruin, all the entire unit are visible from the right hand side through the windows.
2 models are on the top level.
4 models are on the middle level, completely under cover of the top level.
4 models are on the bottom level , completely under cover of the middle level.
See example:
o o
---------
o o o o
---------
o o o o
---------
John Doe fires a blast template and can see the model on the ground floor through the right window, is John forced to place the blast template directly above that model at the top level ( despite it being completely obscured by the top level) or can he ignore the top 2 and place it on the bottom as he has line of sight.
@Mrfantastical, not sure if you're directing that at me mate but what is really stupid is not asking questions when you are unsure of something. There was a point where you didn't know this rule so keep your "stoop its" or say something that is actually funny/ constructive.
I'm not calling anyone stoopit, and I apologize if that's how it came out. I'm calling the lack of clear rules on blast weapons and elevation stoopit. This wasn't an issue in the previous 2 editions, but now you suddenly have cylinder explosions. I know this is an oversight, but already players are beginning to capitalize, on a really silly, silly situation,
My bad man.The internet is a tough place to be sometimes! It's very stoopit for sure, god know's why they took it out and do not give people the answers when they email/call about it. FAQ's are probably the only thing that bum me about the hobby. that and people who play the game so seriously that they forget to have fun.
Again I'm really sorry Wilson, I really didn't mean to be an @$$. With how bad FAQ's have been with GW (either none at all, or not giving you any information) I'm not going to hold my breathe on a logical ruling.
Currently RAW ruins have a bunch of issues. This is another reason HIWPI is we use the 6th edition rules plus the in ruins rule from 7th. Blasts are just another issue that applying the older rules will help clear up a bunch of issues.
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
xlDuke wrote: It's a 'blast', an explosion, a big badaboom - everyone should get some of it. The new rules make more sense and I don't believe they were simply an oversight.
No, they make no sense.
1) If it was "a big badaboom", then it should also effect the floors above it too... but it doesn't.
2) Templates have a further rule that they need to touch the base of the firing model. SO use a flamethrower on the top floor, hit everyone on the building, us it on the bottom floor, only his the guys in front of you.
Lord Commissar wrote: All major GT's have had it to where EVERYTHING under a blast marker is hit. 5th floor or ground.
That doesn't though :( I mean, I get it. Ease of interpretation and all, but its not feasible.
What do you mean it is not feasible?
It is actually really easy to count the models that are at least partially under the blast marker.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
As already stated, it's everything under the blast/template. For templates you do need los for wound allocation.
The BRB encourages you to make datasheets for your terrain. So if you want, agree with the player that ruins with multiple floors block blasts in this manner if you both want that.
Ruins are ruins because they've already been hit by a mortar (blast). That the ruin would then suddenly become safer and more invulnerable to mortar fire from then on makes no sense to me. It's the 4+ save vs more template hits gamble. It's worked for us so far.
Lord Commissar wrote: All major GT's have had it to where EVERYTHING under a blast marker is hit. 5th floor or ground.
That doesn't though :( I mean, I get it. Ease of interpretation and all, but its not feasible.
What do you mean it is not feasible?
It is actually really easy to count the models that are at least partially under the blast marker.
Its not feasible in a realistic sense. Unless your frag missile is a nuclear warhead, it wouldn't affect everyone below it too.
A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head. - Maxim 12 - The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries
Lord Commissar wrote: All major GT's have had it to where EVERYTHING under a blast marker is hit. 5th floor or ground.
That doesn't though :( I mean, I get it. Ease of interpretation and all, but its not feasible.
What do you mean it is not feasible?
It is actually really easy to count the models that are at least partially under the blast marker.
Its not feasible in a realistic sense. Unless your frag missile is a nuclear warhead, it wouldn't affect everyone below it too.
I see, you are trying to inject reality into an abstract ruleset. do not do this it never ends well.
Real World Common Sense/Real World Logic/How it works in the real world has no bearing on the 40k Ruleset.
Remember: The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.
The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.
What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now. (and maybe not even on a planet with the same physical makeup as our earth, and probably different physics as well).
As such they need to have some compromises to make the game playable.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
Lord Commissar wrote: All major GT's have had it to where EVERYTHING under a blast marker is hit. 5th floor or ground.
That doesn't though :( I mean, I get it. Ease of interpretation and all, but its not feasible.
What do you mean it is not feasible?
It is actually really easy to count the models that are at least partially under the blast marker.
Its not feasible in a realistic sense. Unless your frag missile is a nuclear warhead, it wouldn't affect everyone below it too.
I see, you are trying to inject reality into an abstract ruleset. do not do this it never ends well.
Real World Common Sense/Real World Logic/How it works in the real world has no bearing on the 40k Ruleset.
Remember: The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.
The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.
What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now. (and maybe not even on a planet with the same physical makeup as our earth, and probably different physics as well).
As such they need to have some compromises to make the game playable.
I try, but its so weird that it affects things in a column rather than spherical space.
A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head. - Maxim 12 - The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries
With an abstract rules system it is best to not try to inject modern day real world physics into it, it never ends well.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
Lord Commissar wrote: All major GT's have had it to where EVERYTHING under a blast marker is hit. 5th floor or ground.
That doesn't though :( I mean, I get it. Ease of interpretation and all, but its not feasible.
What do you mean it is not feasible?
It is actually really easy to count the models that are at least partially under the blast marker.
Its not feasible in a realistic sense. Unless your frag missile is a nuclear warhead, it wouldn't affect everyone below it too.
I see, you are trying to inject reality into an abstract ruleset. do not do this it never ends well.
Real World Common Sense/Real World Logic/How it works in the real world has no bearing on the 40k Ruleset.
Remember: The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.
The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.
What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now. (and maybe not even on a planet with the same physical makeup as our earth, and probably different physics as well).
As such they need to have some compromises to make the game playable.
I try, but its so weird that it affects things in a column rather than spherical space.
I'm with you weaponprime, especially since they had rules for this in previous editions. You might also have a situation where a zooming flyer, which is immune to snapfire from blast weapons could be hit by this if it were close enought to a building. Just silly.
No, from memory it was the Cities of Death supplement in 4th edition that added in the levels rules, specifically for CoD games. Prior to that, ruins were just difficult terrain as they are now.
sirlynchmob wrote: It is clearly evident that only those models that can be seen directly beneath the marker are hit.
Why does opening the dictionary result in adding extra modifiers to the stated requirement?
'Beneath' does not automatically mean 'directly beneath'. Nor is 'directly beneath' a precise measurement anyway. How far above the models can the marker be and still be considered 'directly' above them?
sirlynchmob wrote: It is clearly evident that only those models that can be seen directly beneath the marker are hit.
Why does opening the dictionary result in adding extra modifiers to the stated requirement?
'Beneath' does not automatically mean 'directly beneath'. Nor is 'directly beneath' a precise measurement anyway. How far above the models can the marker be and still be considered 'directly' above them?
it's not extra modifiers, it is the RAW stated requirement, based on the words GW used in the rule.
beneath leads us back to underneath:
1. below; in or to a lower place, position, state, or the like.
2. underneath:
directly:
1. without changing direction or stopping.
2. with nothing or no one in between.
To be directly below the marker you must be able to be seen while looking through the marker, regardless of distance, and you can't hit things that you can't see.
sirlynchmob wrote: it's not extra modifiers, it is the RAW stated requirement, based on the words GW used in the rule.
beneath leads us back to underneath:
1. below; in or to a lower place, position, state, or the like.
2. underneath:.
What RAW leads you to ignore the first definition in favour of the second?
This:
'underneath' is in bold when talking about blasts pg12, and as we are told in the introduction 'as you read through the rules, you will notice some of the text is bold, like this. This highlights the most important elements of the rules in question.
The most important word used is underneath. With the word used the definition #1 situated directly below (something else). Which leads us to the only outcome of being able to draw a straight line from the marker to the model underneath. If anything is blocking the model, then it is not directly below and not hit. If there is a floor in the way, then something is between the model & the marker so it is not directly below the marker.
beneath which is used later and not in bold, also referred us to underneath, the word that was bold.
RAW 'underneath' is the most import word that should be used in context with blasts.
so to be underneath the marker you must be directly below with nothing in the way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/01 18:59:28
sirlynchmob wrote: so to be underneath the marker you must be directly below with nothing in the way.
Tell that to my neighbors.
I live on the third floor, I have two neighbors in my building directly beneath me, one on floor two, one on floor one. I also have three other neighbors, one neighbor that is across the hall, and two more neighbors on floors two and one that are directly beneath him.
Directly beneath does not mean can be seen. (Though I wouldn't mind getting a peek at the redhead on floor two directly beneath me).
sirlynchmob wrote: It is clearly evident that only those models that can be seen directly beneath the marker are hit.
Why does opening the dictionary result in adding extra modifiers to the stated requirement?
'Beneath' does not automatically mean 'directly beneath'. Nor is 'directly beneath' a precise measurement anyway. How far above the models can the marker be and still be considered 'directly' above them?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/01 20:52:46
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
Personally, I think I'll be suggesting to my group that we use the rules in Cities of Death for placing templates and blast markers over ruins.
I have a strong suspicion that GW intends to rerelease CoD at some point in the near future. Much like they removed the rules for specific fortifications from the rulebook so people had to refer to Stronghold Assault, I wonder if GW removed most of the details in the rules for ruins to prepare for a new CoD book.
I think they plan to release "Terrain Datasheets," containing the Rules needed to fix these problems... Probably compiled into a collection called Cities of Death, but maybe even just released with each Model that you purchase from them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/01 23:07:17
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
We've had laser guided bunker busters that can tear through 20 feet of reinforced concrete since the first Iraq war. I'm pretty sure 38,000 years from now, they will have tanks that can shoot artillery shells that go through the 1-3 feet thick floors of a ruin.
Real world examples are useless in discussion abstract systems, sorry.
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
