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Made in us
The Hive Mind





Gravmyr wrote:
BY choosing to apply FNP first you have broken the sequencing rule from pg 17, which states the active player chooses which order to resolve rule triggered at the same time. That's what we call "Breaking a rule." Perhaps you've heard of it? I assume you didn't quote a rule that allows your interpretation because one does not exist. The same way many rules are "rules changes" in the FAQ they are not per GW it's a clarification. If you are viewing it as anything else your vision of what is written is different from GW's and whether or not we like it is wrong.

No, GW demonstrably changes rules using FAQs. But that's irrelevant.
I'm not applying FNP first. Feel free to remove a models armor save using ES. Then I make the wound saved with FNP.
You now have a model that has not suffered an unsaved wound from a ES weapon with the ES effect applied. That's breaking a rule.
Do you need me to quote the FNP rule? I can, but I didn't because I assumed you were familiar with it. Here, I'll go ahead and quote the relevant section:
Roll a D6 each time an unsaved Wound is suffered. On a 4 or less, you must take the Wound as normal. On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted – treat it as having been saved.

I apologize for my assumption. The underlined means that if you do anything that requires an unsaved wound, you're breaking a rule.

FNP never tells us when it was saved just that is is treated as having been saved. Since I have no instructions about going back in time and unallocating the wound or not resolving other powers I fail to see how I can not apply the affects. It actually tells you to discount the wound first, which is to lessen the normal cost, then it tells us to treat it as having been saved.

First of all, "treat as" is equivalent to "is" in 40k.
Second, the underlined is false. "having been saved" is an instruction to ignore the fact that you failed your save because you actually passed it.

And you keep bringing up other powers... it's not a comparable situation. Stop harping on it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/01 13:29:24


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Made in us
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Johnson City, NewYork

Gravmyr wrote:
I assume you have a rule to quote that states that we cannot apply the affects of a rule/power if the trigger no longer exists or that you stop activating rules if the trigger no longer exists.

ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.

You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General 
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker




South Chicago burbs

Your not treating the wound as saved if you apply the effects of ES, period.

insaniak wrote:
YMDC has plenty of room for discussion veering away from the RAW, particularly in cases like this where what is being put forward as the RAW is absurd.

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Johnson City, NewYork

You're also not treating the wound as saved if you have taken an FNP roll now are you?

ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.

You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General 
   
Made in gb
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Newton Aycliffe

rigeld2 wrote:
treat it as having been saved.


You are?

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It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Gravmyr wrote:
Gravmyr wrote:
I assume you have a rule to quote that states that we cannot apply the affects of a rule/power if the trigger no longer exists or that you stop activating rules if the trigger no longer exists.

I did quote it. I'm surprised you didn't see it. Should I make it bold for you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gravmyr wrote:
You're also not treating the wound as saved if you have taken an FNP roll now are you?

So now you're saying FNP does nothing?
After all, when you suffer an unsaved would you're supposed to subtract 1 from your Wounds characteristic... Why aren't you doing that, yet you are applying other effects?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/01 17:36:23


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Made in us
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Johnson City, NewYork

What you quoted says nothing about auxiliary effects or triggered SR's now does it? Exactly what in the FNP rules tells you to change the activated SR's?

What i am saying is there is no way for FNP to actually treat an unsaved wound as a saved wound vis-a-vis negating all triggered SR's as it is a triggered SR.

ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.

You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General 
   
Made in us
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The main question is: Was there ever an unsaved wound?

If you answered yes, then FNP works, and the Special Rules invoked by ES also works.

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by FnPs own rules if it succeeds there was never an unsaved wound.

treat as saved cannot = unsaved.

So there was an unsvaved wound if FnP fails.

But there was not an unsaved wound if FnP succeeds
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




ES has 2 things that make it trigger even if the model passes its FNP roll:

1. The trigger is the same so if you have permission to activate FNP you also have permission to activate ES. Both effects can be applied without breaking any of these 2 rules. The model doesn't lose a wound and the model loses its armour save.

2. The effect of ES is applied "immediately" where the FNP has no such wording. So you have one effect that applies immediately when a model suffers an unsaved wound and another effect that doesn't happen immediately when a model suffers an unsaved wound. The immediate effect must take priority over the non immediate effect, which means ES is applied before FNP.
   
Made in us
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So can we leave our models that suffer unsaved wounds on the table and then roll later since it doesn't happen immediately?

Maybe in a few turns so they cant get shot again..

The trigger wording may be the same, but the issue is.

If you succeed a FnP rule you never had an unsaved wound.

if you never had an unsaved wound you shouldn't have applied modifiers that apply to models that suffer an unsaved wound, because the model never suffered an unsaved wound.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Gravmyr wrote:
What you quoted says nothing about auxiliary effects or triggered SR's now does it? Exactly what in the FNP rules tells you to change the activated SR's?

The fact that you treat the wound as saved. I even underlined it.

What i am saying is there is no way for FNP to actually treat an unsaved wound as a saved wound vis-a-vis negating all triggered SR's as it is a triggered SR.

So you're saying that FNP literally does nothing?
If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty.

Because according to you, those sentences still apply.

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@blaktoof If you are told
a) when someone offers you a cookie you should immediately say "Thank you"
b) when someone offers you a cookie you should eat the cookie

And someone offers you a cookie, what would you do? Eat the cookie first and then say thank you? (Well you could, but you get what I mean...)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/01 18:34:33


 
   
Made in us
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or
c) If macho man Randy Savage snaps into a slim jim, jumps out of the balcony and smacks the cookie out of my hand before either happend as if you never had the cookie.

Yeah i'm not saying thank you, because there was no cookie.



In this example of a picture the person who looks like they could personify a stereotype of jesus is the cookie. The cookie had chocolate chips and sprinkles, but never made it into my hand because I made my Feel no Cookie roll. If I had the cookie, I would have sa;d "thank you" and gotten crumbs on my 3+ shirt of awesomeness and vorpal dice rolling. Which we all know reduces the vorpal dice rolling to just dice rolling. But it didn't happen, thank you my macho man randy savage.

below is a copy of my shirt that wasnt covered in crumbs because I passed my FnC roll.

This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2014/08/01 18:42:03


 
   
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Hmm nice try deflecting the obvious...
   
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the obvious that the analogy was poorly worded and biased and included nothing regarding the fact that one of the outcomes of FnP- namely passing it, means the event never happened?

yes. I am sorry I did not take one of the two options that did not include that and would support your claim.
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




@blaktoof OK how about this
a) when someone offers you a cookie you should immediately say "Thank you"
b) when someone offers you a cookie you should walk away like nothing happend.

Better?
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker




South Chicago burbs

Bad analogy is still bad.

You don't get to apply effects from ES unless there is an unsaved wound. A passed FnP roll treats it as saved. Ergo there is no unsaved wound.

With your reasoning, a single wound model that suffers a wound and passes FnP still dies because the wound was unsaved at one point.

insaniak wrote:
YMDC has plenty of room for discussion veering away from the RAW, particularly in cases like this where what is being put forward as the RAW is absurd.

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The analogy is just fine. What you don't (want to) get is that a model can lose its armour save and still have full wounds. There is no rule against it. But if you apply an effect before ES, then the ES stops being immediate, and you have broken a rule.
   
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South Chicago burbs

Sorry, but if you apply the effect you haven't treated it as a saved wound have you?

We can talk in circles all day, and your bad analogies won't change that.

insaniak wrote:
YMDC has plenty of room for discussion veering away from the RAW, particularly in cases like this where what is being put forward as the RAW is absurd.

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 BarBoBot wrote:
Sorry, but if you apply the effect you haven't treated it as a saved wound have you?


You have indeed. You see the armour save of the model was stripped before FNP was applied. The FNP treats the wound as saved to a model that has already no armour save. So you end up with a model with no armour save and full wounds, which, as an end result, is not against the rules.
   
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copper.talos wrote:
 BarBoBot wrote:
Sorry, but if you apply the effect you haven't treated it as a saved wound have you?


You have indeed. You see the armour save of the model was stripped before FNP was applied. The FNP treats the wound as saved to a model that has already no armour save. So you end up with a model with no armour save and full wounds, which, as an end result, is not against the rules.

Why does Entropic Strike happen before FNP?
   
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 CrownAxe wrote:
copper.talos wrote:
 BarBoBot wrote:
Sorry, but if you apply the effect you haven't treated it as a saved wound have you?


You have indeed. You see the armour save of the model was stripped before FNP was applied. The FNP treats the wound as saved to a model that has already no armour save. So you end up with a model with no armour save and full wounds, which, as an end result, is not against the rules.

Why does Entropic Strike happen before FNP?


2 reasons from sequencing.

1 ES happens immediately (specific wording as to when it happens) upon a unsaved wound.
2 active player chooses the order of things, so he chooses ES than FNP.

In the end you can be left with a model with no armor and no wounds taken.

 
   
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Because the ES wording, unlike FNP's, make it apply "immediately" when a model suffers an unsaved wound.
   
Made in us
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That FnP doesnt trigger other things that apply from unsaved wounds such as-

Remove from play if it reduces to 0
count as unsaved wounds for combat resolution
etc.

Shows that FnP comes before these things occur, even if its the opponents turn and they can decide the order of things.

most likely because if you pass a FnP roll there was never an unsaved wound.

ES may play immediately, but that doesn't mean it comes before other things always.

Obviously FnP comes before the final resolution if there was an unsaved wound or not.

otherwise on my turn you can remove your FnP models from play before making your FnP rolls. As you have no permission to put models back on the table from being removed from play you are welcome to make your FnP rolls after that, and keep the models off table.
   
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Chicago, IL

Gravmyr wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

and that is okay because the wound is treated as having been saved, and not activating ES is just fine because we are treating the wound as a saved wound.

FNP must go first to find out if you have a saved wound or an unsaved wound.


Which is in direction contradiction to your argument concerning the right to stack psychic powers is it not?

Not at all even close to the same argument.


Activation has already happened before you roll for FNP and there is nothing in it that says to stop resolving other USR's is there?
Yes, FNP treats the wound as saved, therefore it must be rolled for first to see if you actually have an unsaved or a saved wound.

With ES, why does a model not have an armor save, the wound was treated as saved, why would you roll anything but FNP first?

Would you strip an armor save from a model that saved the wound?

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sirlynchmob wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
copper.talos wrote:
 BarBoBot wrote:
Sorry, but if you apply the effect you haven't treated it as a saved wound have you?


You have indeed. You see the armour save of the model was stripped before FNP was applied. The FNP treats the wound as saved to a model that has already no armour save. So you end up with a model with no armour save and full wounds, which, as an end result, is not against the rules.

Why does Entropic Strike happen before FNP?


2 reasons from sequencing.

1 ES happens immediately (specific wording as to when it happens) upon a unsaved wound.
2 active player chooses the order of things, so he chooses ES than FNP.

In the end you can be left with a model with no armor and no wounds taken.


For number 2, by your reasoning, the player whose turn it is can just elect to have the model lose the wound and be removed from play (assuming a 1 wound model) since it triggers off of the unsaved wound, just like FNP and ES, which would make FNP rather useless most of the time.
   
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Chicago, IL

copper.talos wrote:
Because the ES wording, unlike FNP's, make it apply "immediately" when a model suffers an unsaved wound.


and FNP happens when the model suffers an unsaved Wound. So FNP is rolled for when the unsaved wound happens. At the exact same time as when the unsaved wound occurs.

"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound..." (Feel No Pain rules).

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We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Yep, that's the exact same trigger event as ES, an unsaved wound, only ES must apply "immediately" after that unsaved wound ie
1. without lapse of time; at once.
2. with no object or space intervening.
3. closely: immediately in the vicinity.
4. without intervening medium or agent.
(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/immediately)

So if you apply FNP before ES, then ES wouldn't be applied immediately, would it? FNP applies after the immediate effect of ES and it treats the unsaved wound as saved to a model without an armour save.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/01 20:51:09


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I think it's down to the wording.

If it said it activates due to "A failed save" then it would regardless of whether the model is wounded by it or not.

as it says "an unsaved wound" and feel no pain "treats the wound as saved" then the wound is treated as saved, and all effects have to comply with that too.

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