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Zimko wrote:FNP: When you suffer an unsaved wound.
ES: Immediately AFTER suffering an unsaved wound.

With this wording, FNP happens first because it happens while the wound is being suffered while ES happens after it is suffered. If FNP is successful then the wound is treated as being saved and is not suffered.

No paradox... no time loop... just simple rules.

edit: adding rules quotes cause stuff

FNP
"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded... "

Entropic Strike
"Any model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds... (effects of the rule)"

See that is part of the issue, as DR can attest they threw suffers, suffer and suffered around willey nilley in 5th. I thought it implied timing as well but it's use is all over the board.

Beyond that please take a look at the wording of FNP from 5th. "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound..." Entropic strike reads: "Any model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds..." Looking at these wordings and the argument that ES happens after the wound is suffered, I assume you never rolled FNP as it would have happened after the model was removed from the board. If you didn't and you rolled it right after the saves then why are you trying to move when ES happens in this edition?

blaktoof wrote:I am guessing some people are imagining it is, then claiming both ES and FnP happen at the same time so they can pick which goes first, despite the fact one obviously means the other could never happen regardless of the order if it succeeds as it means the event never happened.

This is a permission based ruleset. You need a rule that tells you that something is going to happen in a particular order. if the trigger is the same, like concussive and FNP it can imply all it wants but unless there is wording that specifically states do this before everything else or this rule overrides x then you go by the basic rules. There is no line that states this.

The half line that the time traveling side keeps quoting also states that the wound is discounted which is present tense before telling you to treat it as having been saved. Why focus on that wording and throw the rest of the sentence away?

In the end you need to provide a rule, a specific one, stating that you do not use the rules on pg 17 for sequencing. Looking at it I still say they need to reword sr's and casualty removal otherwise I do in fact have the option of forcing the wound to be removed first.

Except then you'd be breaking the rules by not discounting the wound or treating it as having been saved when FNP tells you to.

Your method breaks rules. Mine does not. Your method renders FNP literally pointless. Mine does not. How could yours possibly be correct, assuming the writers did not write pointless rules?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Bottom line: To apply the ES effect to a model that has not suffered an unsaved wound is breaking a rule.

Well, their stance is that at the moment they apply ES it wouldn't be breaking a rule.
I can see how they think that and it's my opinion that GW should make a FAQ telling us that FNP comes before any other effect. That's how we play it.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except then you'd be breaking the rules by not discounting the wound or treating it as having been saved when FNP tells you to.

Your method breaks rules. Mine does not. Your method renders FNP literally pointless. Mine does not. How could yours possibly be correct, assuming the writers did not write pointless rules?

Still stops the removal of a wound, so not literally pointless. Your method breaks the order of operations rule, and the multiple special rules affecting a single model rule. So how can you possibly be correct? Assuming GW doesn't write pointless rules, which they do.

This will go around forever, because both ways breaks a rule, if not more. Using the order of operations rule, your way works in your turn, with FnP going first, and in our turn it works the way we say, and goes second. This is supported in the rules.

The model has to suffer one or more Unsaved Wounds for ES, Concussive, Pinning, Soul Blaze, and Strikedown to take effect.

With FNP there is no unsaved wound suffered.

When an Unsaved wound is suffered by a FMC it needs to take a grounding test, you only do this is FNP is failed, ergo unless you fail FNP you do not suffer an unsaved wound.

How I didn't realize this nugget of information before is beyond me. Thank you for the debate gentlemen, but it turns out that FNP is indeed first as I have rules showing it as such.

(The ES, Concussive, Pinning, Soul Blaze, and Strikedown rules all include the wording "suffers one or more unsaved Wounds").

 DeathReaper wrote:
The model has to suffer one or more Unsaved Wounds for ES, Concussive, Pinning, Soul Blaze, and Strikedown to take effect.

With FNP there is no unsaved wound suffered.

When an Unsaved wound is suffered by a FMC it needs to take a grounding test, you only do this is FNP is failed, ergo unless you fail FNP you do not suffer an unsaved wound.

How I didn't realize this nugget of information before is beyond me. Thank you for the debate gentlemen, but it turns out that FNP is indeed first as I have rules showing it as such.

(The ES, Concussive, Pinning, Soul Blaze, and Strikedown rules all include the wording "suffers one or more unsaved Wounds").

So then what is required to make a FNP roll in the first place? At what Part of the Pahse does this roll happen?

What is Required to make a Ground Check? and at what part of the Phase does this roll/Check happen?

Fnp Can only be roll for if and only if the Model suffers an unsaved wound, and this roll is made after the unsaved wound is suffered.

A grounding Check is made for a Model that suffers an unsaved Wound, and this roll happens at the end of the phase in which the model suffered an unsaved wound.

How then can you use the argument that, a Roll at the end of the phase which is only taken if a model suffered an unsaved wound is in anyway the same as a effect that happens the very instant a model suffers an unsaved wound? A grounding check which triggers off of an unsaved wound (Which FNP can negate due to when FNp is rolled Verses when the Grounding check is made) is in no way the same as two effects that trigger, off the same trigger, at the same instant.

It seems that this is a case of Player turn deciding what happens first much like MMS and Challenges.

No, Deathreaper pointed out critical wording i had not noticed either in the rule:
"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded"

When you suffer is at the exact same point in time as the wound itself. Whereas all the other rules (and grounded) are after you know if you have an unsaved wound or not (after you roll your armor save+FNP)

The wording for ES regarding the trigger event is exactly the same with FNP. What is valid for one is valid for the other. They are different to when they apply their effect. ES must happen immediately FNP must not. Immediate actions take priority over non immediate ones, so FNP tries to negate the wound to a model that has no armour save.

@DR: See that is what I have been asking for, a rule based reason not an interpretation or RAI. I can and do get behind this reasoning, I hadn't looked at each individually and apparently neither had DR. Good catch.

I'd like to see how they word ES when it comes out... Knowing them they'll come up with a more vague way of putting it just to make life interesting.

 BlackTalos wrote:
No, Deathreaper pointed out critical wording i had not noticed either in the rule:
"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded"

When you suffer is at the exact same point in time as the wound itself. Whereas all the other rules (and grounded) are after you know if you have an unsaved wound or not (after you roll your armor save+FNP)

(Emphasis mine)

100% this, the underlined specifically.

If ES wording used "suffered" you would have been correct. Both rules use present tense for a reason. And you should wonder why all major tournaments (BAO, ECT) have ruled that ES applies before FNP. Are all TOs wrong?

What's the relevance of the BAO to this rules discussion?

Are you claiming TO's are rules writers or that they have special inside input that we don't?

Major tournaments have a bunch of people spending lots of time to make a FAQ. If one FAQ agrees with an argument it can be a coincidence, if all FAQs agree it must mean something. And at least players that want to play in a competitive environment should be aware of this.

BAO also ruled that a character can join a unit that infiltrates despite the clear RAW that they can't.

Are you claiming TO rulings should be used as official rulings?

I guess everyone should make a note in their rulebook that a 2++ rerollable only succeeds on a reroll of 4+ right?

Stick to the facts.

"2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs...."

BAO and other TO are not "real" faqs and are only homebrew rules that are "made on the fly".

RAW es needs an unsaved wound.
RAW FNP makes the wound as if it was never unsaved.

HIWP FNP "resets" the wound needed for ES causing ES to not trigger.

If you want to do the FNP first / above all others side any good in the discussion, stop stating that FNP changes the past or resets anything. FNP changes a wound from unsaved to saved. If you state it goes back in time to do that then you are forcing it to cause a paradox within itself. If it's viable for one rule to function in that paradox it stands that it is also viable for other rules to function in that paradox. FNP needs an unsaved wound just as much as ES concussive or any of the others.

Yeah except FnP discounts the wound so.... There is no unsaved wound.

"Treat the wound as having been saved" changes the past.

but it doesn't matter because you have to actually suffer an unsaved wound to apply Entropic Strike, Concussive, ect.

You do not actually suffer an Unsaved wound unless the FNP roll is failed.

If you have not suffered the wound then FNP cannot activate.

FnP discounts it. It never happened.

Do you know what discount means?

The rule says treat it as being saved. Are you doing that if you appy ES?

You 're not getting it have you read the thread? If you say you can't apply ES because there is no wound then how are you applying FNP with there being no wound?

Yep I've been reading the thread, and its been mentioned to you more times than needed.

You don't know if you have a unsaved wound until you have made the FnP roll. Mmkay?

Gravmyr wrote:
You 're not getting it have you read the thread? If you say you can't apply ES because there is no wound then how are you applying FNP with there being no wound?

By your logic you can never roll FNP ever

I find it interesting that the Pro-ES side wants ES, Concussive, etc to work, however, they do not think that I should decide that the Wound removal happens before FNP, despite happening at the same time as FNP.

You need that wound to be suffered in order for FNP to activate. By negating that you are breaking the same rule that you are claiming applying ES would... You still didn't answer my question by the way. How are you activating FNP without a wound?

Gravmyr wrote:
You need that wound to be suffered in order for FNP to activate. By negating that you are breaking the same rule that you are claiming applying ES would... You still didn't answer my question by the way. How are you activating FNP without a wound?

We know this is wrong because if you were right FNP would never work

Then please answer how you can activate FNP without an unsaved wound.

Gravmyr wrote:
If you have not suffered the wound then FNP cannot activate.

You actually suffer a wound when you reduce the models wounds by 1. This does not happen with FNP.

When you suffer is at the exact same point in time as the wound itself. Whereas all the other rules (and grounded) are after you know if you have an unsaved wound or not (after you roll your armor save+FNP)