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 Las wrote:
Remember that promotional poster they ran with that named female character (because everything is named) clad in a low cut top standing in front of two monsters from hordes or whatever with the text "who needs a jack when youve got a pair of these?"

So radical, so sick, bro.

[citation needed]

Also, brace yourselves, cheesecake arguments are inbound!

Can I have a link to a picture, because I've never seen that? I failed to find it with image searches as well.

I think if I were to be the type of person who analyzes fantasy rules and art to see where I should be offended, I think I'd be less offended by finding it in general approach pages like page 5 or on promotional posters than in 40k where cultural caricatures are baked into the fiction/world directly. Where each primarch and their chapter is a caricature of real world cultures.

But I get that that's a trope of the genre, so I don't get worked up about it. And if someone did, I'd be like "you're working really hard at being offended".

Seriously though, document that poster with a link, I want to see it.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Can I have a link to a picture, because I've never seen that? I failed to find it with image searches as well.

Seriously though, document that poster with a link, I want to see it.

Likewise. Google turned up nothing.

They had it up in my FLGS for the primal release. None of those posters are showing up on google.

Fantasy has in the past had entire races that propagated themselves only through rape.

Sisters of Battle are used as victims in numerous pieces of terrible background writing.

The armies of the 41st millennium have barely any women who aren't:
-Submissive fetish bait
-Space Nuns
-Dom fetish bait
-Actually androgynous lust-demons

I reckon GW's relationship with females and especially with female sexuality has quite a long way to go before it's anything approaching healthy.

But sure, get offended at PP. Page 5 is pretty stupid and they should drop it.

Perhaps we should move back to topic instead of Page 5, eh?

One of the realities of our society is that there's an expectation of political correctness with every move any public person or organization does. One of the advantages a smaller company like Privateer Press has is they're less beholden to that because they're less visible, so they can be a little less PC in order to catch people's attention as part of their marketing.

Personally, as someone who's been part of nerd culture and all sorts of gaming for the past 25 or so years, I find the theme of Page 5 to be a refreshing dose of calling out would-be TFGs to be a little more self aware, rather than the typical brushing off of this type of behavior.

Then again, I've also found in life that if I choose to get offended by every little thing that could possible offend me, I'd be wasting way too much time.

If you want to use Page 5, in any of its forms, as an excuse to be offended and not play Warmahordes, go ahead. Just realize your self-righteousness is probably closing more doors for you than it is opening other people's eyes, and if you go through life that way you're going to burn way too much energy on gak that just doesn't matter.

 Da Boss wrote:
Fantasy has in the past had entire races that propagated themselves only through rape.

Sisters of Battle are used as victims in numerous pieces of terrible background writing.

The armies of the 41st millennium have barely any women who aren't:
-Submissive fetish bait
-Space Nuns
-Dom fetish bait
-Actually androgynous lust-demons

I reckon GW's relationship with females and especially with female sexuality has quite a long way to go before it's anything approaching healthy.

But sure, get offended at PP. Page 5 is pretty stupid and they should drop it.

I agree with you assessment completely. However I do not take these issues as giving PP a free pass.

 slowthar wrote:
One of the realities of our society is that there's an expectation of political correctness with every move any public person or organization does. One of the advantages a smaller company like Privateer Press has is they're less beholden to that because they're less visible, so they can be a little less PC in order to catch people's attention as part of their marketing.

Personally, as someone who's been part of nerd culture and all sorts of gaming for the past 25 or so years, I find the theme of Page 5 to be a refreshing dose of calling out would-be TFGs to be a little more self aware, rather than the typical brushing off of this type of behavior.

Then again, I've also found in life that if I choose to get offended by every little thing that could possible offend me, I'd be wasting way too much time.

If you want to use Page 5, in any of its forms, as an excuse to be offended and not play Warmahordes, go ahead. Just realize your self-righteousness is probably closing more doors for you than it is opening other people's eyes, and if you go through life that way you're going to burn way too much energy on gak that just doesn't matter.

Nerd culture has a lot to deal with in terms of gender and sexuality. The hobby should be inclusive. I'm not 'choosing to be offended.' I am choosing to spend my money on companies that more suit my interests. There's plenty of things I dislike about warmahordes other than page 5. That was just the thing that finally allowed me to realize that the company and game just wasn't for me and I stated as much in this thread.

There is no game today that doesn't include some form of blatant sexism.

Even privateer realized this and changed a little in mk2.

If you want to get all huffy puffy about it, then you'd have to leave the scene entirely. Or you could just make sure to promote positive change and positive attitudes toward the right way.

Internet arguments do very little.

Or do like me and try making a game purposely trying to minimize that. I hired an artist specifically to create female infantry that wasn't in sexist.

 Vertrucio wrote:
There is no game today that doesn't include some form of blatant sexism.

Even privateer realized this and changed a little in mk2.

If you want to get all huffy puffy about it, then you'd have to leave the scene entirely. Or you could just make sure to promote positive change and positive attitudes toward the right way.

Internet arguments do very little.

Or do like me and try making a game purposely trying to minimize that. I hired an artist specifically to create female infantry that wasn't in sexist.

I really don't understand your position. The text I bolded is completely correct. Its pervasive and it needs to change. Why then is the stock response to valid criticism "youre choosing to be offended" or "move along, its fine. It's not MEANT to be taken like that"?

This is an endemic part of gaming culture and its BS. It damages the hobby and slogans like "play like you've got a pair" help propagate the idea that wargaming is for men first and women second, that warmachine is a game that rewards masculinity. No, it isn't "girls don't play this game!" but it's part of the problem.

You still play 40k.

A game where some patriarchal space Bros murder devout women of a man god to bath in their blood so they can fight demons.

Your argument and Internet rage is invalid.

Okay great, cool, it's settled. No one will ever discuss sexism in nerd culture if they play a sci-fi/fantasy game.

I do understand that games with free movement like most miniatures games are, require a kind of 'gentleman's agreement' to be playable, thus there is a place for things like "Most Important Rule" or "Page 5". PP's original Page 5 is IMO offensive in its silliness rather than sexism-ness. I can see how it could become a problem with certain type of people, tho.
It actually reminds me of attitude I encountered back in my MtG days. Anecdote: I was playing in a local booster draft, and knowing that most people would likely ignore blue and white in such an environment, concentrated on those colours and build myself a strong defensive deck. Halfway through the tournament, one of the local top players and event organizers stops by my table, and looks at the situation where I have fortified myself behind Walls, defensive enchanchments, creatures and artifacts, with my opponent having almost no chance to hurt me. "What the hell are you doing" he noted in disgust. "This game is not meant to be played like this. Attack! Take risks! Don't be such a wuss." I shrugged, I was winning the match comfortably, and I did. However, gradually it became obvious to me that some people thought I was playing the game "wrong", so I left the scene so they could keep playing in well and proper way, without heretics like me messing things around.

I do note the irony how original Page 5's message of anti-political correctness, bad-assery and playing with metal models have been pretty much completely neutered in later iterations

Backfire wrote:


I do note the irony how original Page 5's message of anti-political correctness, bad-assery and playing with metal models have been pretty much completely neutered in later iterations

Yes, it has changed. These changes are reflected in the MKII page five above. It's still not what I would call PC, but ymmv.

Back on topic:

OP, have you tried taking a step all the way back to battlebox (15-25 pts) just to go the mojo going again?

 Las wrote:
Okay great, cool, it's settled. No one will ever discuss sexism in nerd culture if they play a sci-fi/fantasy game.

Look, when everyone is telling you your argument is full of holes, eventually you have to realize you're holding a block of Swiss cheese (metaphorically speaking). You have an opinion. Fine. It's narrow minded, closed off, and poor, but it's still your opinion and you're entitled to it. But don't think you'll change a single mind here. Accept that you have a radically narrow viewpoint and that most people will roll their eyes at it. Then just agree to disagree. It's either that or get totally offended, leave, and never come back. The Internet is exactly like the page 5 you described: "post like you got a pair". If you can't handle criticism and multiple people telling you that you're wrong, perhaps the Internet is not for you either.

 gunslingerpro wrote:
OP, have you tried taking a step all the way back to battlebox (15-25 pts) just to go the mojo going again?

Now that gencon practice is winding down and my local competitive types are going to be out of town, we're going back to battle box then 15 then 25. I've always wanted to play Circle with lots of werewolves, so a buddy and I are going to split the two player hordes starter.

It'll be a nice change from 50 point eHexie tournament practice games.

I wonder if it is possible to try and integrate rulesets and play a Warmachine vs 40k game....

Gruntz15mm is a set of rules for SciFi skirmish gaming that uses a very warmachine approach, but without a warcaster analogue or synergy chasing approach. Not free, but good.

 WarOne wrote:
I wonder if it is possible to try and integrate rulesets and play a Warmachine vs 40k game....

I bet you could use Warmahorde rule sets to represent 40k Skirmish pretty well. Just change the names of the magic abilities to make lore sense and there you go.

You really couldn't integrate tanks into it so would have to keep it squad/dreadnought based. Probably have to play non-space marine/Necromunda style as well.......with psychic gangs being your armies, automated machines fueled by psychic power as your warjacks, etc.

You could also do the same with Demons/cults, as a Hordes representative.

Actually, that sounds pretty damn cool.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

I bet you could use Warmahorde rule sets to represent 40k Skirmish pretty well. Just change the names of the magic abilities to make lore sense and there you go.

You really couldn't integrate tanks into it so would have to keep it squad/dreadnought based. Probably have to play non-space marine/Necromunda style as well.......with psychic gangs being your armies, automated machines fueled by psychic power as your warjacks, etc.

You could also do the same with Demons/cults, as a Hordes representative.

Actually, that sounds pretty damn cool.

I loathe the PP fluff and adore the 40k IP. As a result I have already done much of this work. It actually works surprisingly well barring a few things like fliers and transports (yes, a terrible shortcoming). We've playtested it a little here and while it certainly needs more balancing it is far more mechanically sound than current 40k. For my money it also feels far more like 40K, at least as I remember it. This was my solution to wanting to play 40K but not being able to stand the rules.

 Kojiro wrote:

I loathe the PP fluff and adore the 40k IP.

I have to ask you about this: what is it about the fluff you don't like? The rpg material is fantastic, for example. Some of the novels are pretty excellent as well.

I'm much more offended by GW upper management sitting in a court of law, under oath and telling the world that our "favorite hobby activity; buying things from Games Workshop."
Belittling me to the point of being a walking wallet. Sure, we all know that companies want to make money but most have the good taste to not come out and say it, or call me a "nerd" or say that I'll "goober all over" their products (still not sure what that means).

Deadnight wrote:
I have to ask you about this: what is it about the fluff you don't like? The rpg material is fantastic, for example. Some of the novels are pretty excellent as well.

It's not that it's badly written, I just find it difficult to work within, especially the technological aspects. Cygnar in particular annoys me. I know part of it is game balance (and I do love the game) but for crying out loud, you have Trenchers with bayonets. Is it so much to ask that you weld a sharp piece of steel to the underside of a Hunter's gun?

I know, I know, it's the setting. But warjacks are stupid in fluff terms. Dreadnoughts at least have the whole life support angle.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the Hunter has a great big axe (well, for a Cygnar light it's a great big axe), why does it need a bayonet on a weapon that is probably quite well zeroed and what not (hence the RAT 7).

The usual issue that I see people having with the fluff is either that they aren't a big fan of steampunk-ish stuff, or they don't like how it's an evolving storyline that never really sees the death of a playable character, which in their mind takes away from the evolution aspect (ignoring the Voyle rules from NQ, or the Sturgis cross-over, since he's still playable after death).

Wargames are like anything else in life. It's all about what you like to play. If 40k makes you happy do that, If WM makes you happy do that. If neither is doing it for you find another game.

That being said. I can see where a person that likes to personalize things and make their own fluff (within a setting). Custom make characters etc would find WM very limiting. Totally get it. Nothing wrong with it.

Same can be said for folks that want to play a really tight game and couldn't care less about the fluff. 40k is not for them.


Both are valid view points. We don't need to brow beat or try to convince everyone else that they should like what we do and if they don't then they are just stupid.....That is silliness.

Just another "social justice warrior" looking to be offended by something. That Fry quote was spot on.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Las wrote:
Okay great, cool, it's settled. No one will ever discuss sexism in nerd culture if they play a sci-fi/fantasy game.

Look, when everyone is telling you your argument is full of holes, eventually you have to realize you're holding a block of Swiss cheese (metaphorically speaking). You have an opinion. Fine. It's narrow minded, closed off, and poor, but it's still your opinion and you're entitled to it. But don't think you'll change a single mind here. Accept that you have a radically narrow viewpoint and that most people will roll their eyes at it. Then just agree to disagree. It's either that or get totally offended, leave, and never come back. The Internet is exactly like the page 5 you described: "post like you got a pair". If you can't handle criticism and multiple people telling you that you're wrong, perhaps the Internet is not for you either.

The only counter that anyone has brought up is throwing around stock buzzwords like "PC" and "social justice warrior." I think the people who can't handle criticism here are the ones that are shying from engaging the discussion and instead choose to deflect or dismiss lest some criticism be leveled on their favourite game.

Also as other people have stated the game has a boring aesthetic and lore.

I wasn't into the aesthetic initially, but as I've started painting the models it's really grown on me. The only thing I still don't like about it is how the warjacks have stick legs, like lousy bodybuilders. It's very cartoony. I'm expecting they'll probably grow out of it a bit like GW has over the years.

 Las wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Las wrote:
Okay great, cool, it's settled. No one will ever discuss sexism in nerd culture if they play a sci-fi/fantasy game.

Look, when everyone is telling you your argument is full of holes, eventually you have to realize you're holding a block of Swiss cheese (metaphorically speaking). You have an opinion. Fine. It's narrow minded, closed off, and poor, but it's still your opinion and you're entitled to it. But don't think you'll change a single mind here. Accept that you have a radically narrow viewpoint and that most people will roll their eyes at it. Then just agree to disagree. It's either that or get totally offended, leave, and never come back. The Internet is exactly like the page 5 you described: "post like you got a pair". If you can't handle criticism and multiple people telling you that you're wrong, perhaps the Internet is not for you either.

The only counter that anyone has brought up is throwing around stock buzzwords like "PC" and "social justice warrior." I think the people who can't handle criticism here are the ones that are shying from engaging the discussion and instead choose to deflect or dismiss lest some criticism be leveled on their favourite game.

Also as other people have stated the game has a boring aesthetic and lore.

People are dismissing your "argument" because they don't see it as valid. It also comes across as silly as someone screaming racism when a caucasian gets promoted over a person of a different color. Even though the facts don't warrant it (in the case of my example not in any particular real life instance).

It's like being offended over something that you see on TV. Dude just change the channel.

Please remember you do not have a RIGHT[i] to not be offended. You do have the right to not look at something or buy something you think offends you.

Which is exactly what I do in regards to warmachine. I posted my reason for doing so in this warmachine related thread when page 5 came up.

It seems to have bothered people a great deal. You guys are quite defensive.