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The local 40k players here don't defend the game-- they agree about the problems and house rule them away. The problem though is that they end up with different ideas as to what fixes the problem. So people show up at events, accept that the organizers are house ruling things, and then bitch and moan behind their backs about how the organizers don't know what they are doing.

All the while the type of people who organize things and are a driving force in the community are slowly dropping out of GW games, so the major tournaments and leagues are dropping away and everyone is starting to just play with 2 or 3 like minded buddies in their basements. The local stores have cancelled their weekly GW games times and replaced them with Magic cards, X-Wing and Netrunner events.

Which basically means that playing 40k is like playing any number of barely played smaller game where you might find a couple people to play with you the way you want. When the rules were solid back in late 3rd edition, there were 5 different places I could go on a Saturday and find 10+ people playing 40k there reliably. That's all gone now.

What I've never found in person though, is the type of evangelical true believer defense of 40k that you see online. In person, they admit to the problems and then can't agree about how to solve them and then passive aggressively attend and criticize eachother's events.

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 TheKbob wrote:

The d6 system doesn't work that well in a skirmish level unless you move to a weighted d6 system a la Warmahordes.

This is very clear when playing Mordheim/Necromunda as well. GW's standard stats system combined with a 1d6 mechanic isn't well suited to skirmish.

Zlayer77, so terrain is better in wmh because you can remove it as a game influence through list building? Sounds fun.

Child, as frozenwastes just mentioned, GWs faults aren't invisible to their fans. Many of is just like the game and models, it's not white knighting. Despite the fact that you find it "dumb" and "gay."

 Las wrote:
Zlayer77, so terrain is better in wmh because you can remove it as a game influence through list building? Sounds fun.

Child, as frozenwastes just mentioned, GWs faults aren't invisible to their fans. Many of is just like the game and models, it's not white knighting. Despite the fact that you find it "dumb" and "gay."

The big diffrence in Warmachine/Hordes Vs 40k is the competitiveness. If you play competitive you want to "STAY IN CONTROL" as mush as possible. You want to control the battlefield and you dont really want anything left to chans if it can be avoided.. I love Chess because it has no dice for this reason.. Now Warmachine/Hordes rules are made so that you can minimize chans/risk. Many ablilities negate negatives or close the gap on the dice rolls making most things you do not dependent on chans... For example if a charge a Unit I have MAT 6 and they have Def 12 I need a 6 on two dices to hit.. Now I use an ablility and I get +2 on my MAT.. Now I need a 4 and I might also get +2 when I charge.. THE only way I can miss now on the charge attack is if I roll Snake Eyes( dubble 1s are always miss in Warmachine/hordes/... I have taken away all chans and Randomness I will most probably hit with my first attack..

This is the main diffrence.. Warmachine/hordes is not Random.. 40k is full of random invulnerable saves and random charges, random moving and this = BAD, you as a player are no longer in control what happens the DICE are... I personaly hate the feeling that the game is playing itself and I have no way of effecting the outcome with me own skills... So I prefer warmachine/hordes where I stay in control of my army, I Decide what it is good and bad at not Random Dice rolls...

 MWHistorian wrote:
Terrain in WMH makes a much larger impact in the game. A single wall can make a huge difference.

Janissa Stonetide is well aware.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Terrain in WMH makes a much larger impact in the game. A single wall can make a huge difference.

Janissa Stonetide is wall aware.

Fixed that for you.

Ok, I'll go get my coat...

I've said this before, but WMH also has the problem that because a single piece of terrain is so much of a difference, they start to make too little a difference in application. People start using less and less terrain, coming up with the same boring two hills, two forests, mirrored table. Or playing in such a way that any terrain on the table is a instant death radiation field that must be avoided.

You know, I don't really see games as either-or situations.

I didn't get rid of all of my 40k minis when I started playing Warmachine, and I didn't get rid of my Warmachine stuff just because I have some Malifaux, Space Hulk, Super Dungeon Blood Bowl or Relic Knights.

And I still play Chess from time to time, you know?


Warmachine is a different animal from 40k- and it has a lot of advantages. All together, I felt like I was making more decisions each turn that made the difference between victory and defeat. And I could turn around a game where I was losing.

Sometimes, I don't want to think as hard as I do with Warmachine, but sometimes I definitely do.


I wouldn't get rid of your Warmachine stuff. Even if you're currently in a spot where you want to play a little more relaxed, you may find that you crave the more competitive and tactical nature of Warmachine later.

WayneTheGame wrote:
You can definitively state 40k has poor rules because games are not balanced with equal points and some fairly basic assumptions (e.g. Both players are making an attempt at building a force capable of winning). An all Terminator army vs an all Jetbikes army is going to be lopsided in virtually all situations.

You can definitively state 40k has poor rules because you need to agree on what rules to use with your opponent. Even if it doesn't really turn into a "U.N. debate" the fact you can't just agree on a points value and sit down to play indicates there is some flaw with the rules. By the same token, when you have to interpret the rules rather than having an actual answer, it means the rules are vague.

These are not opinions, these can be facts, regardless of whether they impact one's enjoyment. For someone like Las they clearly don't, but for people like MWH, Azreal and myself they certainly do.

Don't completely agree with your example, in any wargame if you take units that are ineffective against the enemy then there is something wrong with the army make up, taking only infantry against a tank army is doomed to fail (if the infantry doesn't have anti-tank weapons). The thing i noticed is that i played the same kind of list for years (simple marine army) getting ok results (i'm not the best tactician) in the past, but the last few years i need to take special stuff just to cope with all the AP2 killing stuff. That and the randomness with charging, random VP points etecetera.

 Vertrucio wrote:
I've said this before, but WMH also has the problem that because a single piece of terrain is so much of a difference, they start to make too little a difference in application. People start using less and less terrain, coming up with the same boring two hills, two forests, mirrored table. Or playing in such a way that any terrain on the table is a instant death radiation field that must be avoided.

That's not a problem exclusive to WMH. You can see it in any game regardless of the terrain options available to the players.

 Vertrucio wrote:
I've said this before, but WMH also has the problem that because a single piece of terrain is so much of a difference, they start to make too little a difference in application. People start using less and less terrain, coming up with the same boring two hills, two forests, mirrored table. Or playing in such a way that any terrain on the table is a instant death radiation field that must be avoided.

Well, I guess that it is a good thing that the SR also has rules for setting up terrain then, all that the players have to do is abide by them.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Vertrucio wrote:
I've said this before, but WMH also has the problem that because a single piece of terrain is so much of a difference, they start to make too little a difference in application. People start using less and less terrain, coming up with the same boring two hills, two forests, mirrored table. Or playing in such a way that any terrain on the table is a instant death radiation field that must be avoided.

Well, I guess that it is a good thing that the SR also has rules for setting up terrain then, all that the players have to do is abide by them.

That is something I see done wrong regularly. SR calls for you to not have huge "dead" spaces, and even limits size to... I think 5-7". I often see mirrored tables (they should not be) with enormous forests or hills. Game balance depends on following all the rules, after all.

I play both games, and find the animosity between the two odd. As neither company prevents you from playing the other. That said to the OP even the best games will burn you out if you play them too long and if getting back into them doesn't give you the same feel may be time to try a new game, tons of games in the scale of both games.

For me, its more for what i'm in the mood for (and who's available). I'm lucky in that in my area there is a mix of both. I believe another post said it best (couldn't find, so can't quote) but its a difference between chess and yahtzee. If i'm looking for a laid back game of just goofing off and not caring about what happens and enjoying some jokes its yahtzee(40k) as i found if you go competitive you are fighting an up hill battle with rules that are a framework and not the whole building. Its about seeing a random event and changing what you have to do, throwing down massive # of models and dice, creating theme lists, or just converting Popsicle sticks into a deadly battlewagon.

If i want to test my skills its chess(WH/M) because its never a question about rules, both sides know what they have in store. Its not always a balance match ( some casters are stronger than others) but its not an imbalance to the point of unfun (having a 300pt HQ die to a random chart). I know that i'm getting a pretty decent game in no matter what, knowing there is less flavor of the month, quicker games, fun leagues and a company listening to its players.

I play both for those reasons, i don't think about price since i'm addicted to my plastic crack, sometimes i want that sci-fi model that has cool tentacles from a horror film(40k), and sometimes i want that versatile unit that can do X,Y,Z for my competitive lists in WM/H.

I try not to focus on the negatives to both games, that just seems silly. I saw this the other day at my LGS where a gentleman came in with his kids and was asking about games (40k and WM/H were being played) and it got into a fighting match over which his kids should start. Yep grown men fighting over why their plastic models were better to the point of insulting the others...

Look for whats fun in the game and you will see both games rock!!!

After collecting Cyriss, I started a Cryx army recently.
Lots of metal miniatures. Some very crappy.
GW has so much better miniatures.
Hardly believable.

I would definitely rather have old MK1 metals like the mechanithralls and metal banes over anything made of finecast or whatever GW calls their stuff now. That said, I'd rather have something made of GW's plastic over everything Privateer makes in that terrible PVC crap. I'm definitely looking forward to that new hard plastic kit Privateer is coming out with.

If GW makes something that works well for a unit I'm considering for a Warmachine army, I'll use it. For example, the 40k Dark Eldar wyches make great Nyss Hunters that will primarily be used for a Cryx army. Dark looking elfy fellows and I haven't yet met anyone who takes issues with their pistols not being bows and their various melee weapons not being "nyss claymores" or whatever.

Finecrap < PP's older plastic, and I HATE that stuff. Actually, I feel both companies are excellent at giving refunds when they screw up.

I do something similar, frozenwastes, but the other way. I have a huge collection of Elfy things, and I try to make them as system ambiguous as possible so I can use them for whatever. Lately I've been repainting my Warmachine elves to be more Eldar-y.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think this part comes down to group attitudes, but how likely are people to get static over using "the wrong equipment" on a model in either game? Which one is generally more WYSIWYG?

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
I do something similar, frozenwastes, but the other way. I have a huge collection of Elfy things, and I try to make them as system ambiguous as possible so I can use them for whatever. Lately I've been repainting my Warmachine elves to be more Eldar-y.

In a world of steampowered dwarves, steampowered russians, steampowered french, steampowered zombies and so on, I'm so glad they opted not to go for steampowered elves as well.

Someone complained that PP doesn't offer package deals on full armies. Well, complain no more. This year they're releasing Khador and Skorne, and others will follow.

Personally, it's not how I like to collect armies, but for some it's the bee's knees.

Just to show the other box:

They come out in February and cost $135 retail for a viable 35 point army. In March there will be Legion of Everblight and Protectorate of Menoth boxes as well, and this trend of two a month should continue for the rest of the year. These boxes are one of the best gaming deals I've seen and I can't wait to grab some new factions.

What's the saving in percentage?

Retail on the Khador box is just over $200 while the Skorne box is around $220. Skorne box is about 40% in savings.

It's like they knew exactly what I wanted for Khador!

A Legion of Everblight one might be interesting if it has lots of their coolest monsters in it.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
It's like they knew exactly what I wanted for Khador!

I was just thinking that. Yeah it has 2 jacks and thats a bit of a downer, but really its a good Sorscha box. Even has the lady and the master, who you'll find a use for everywhere

Those are some seriously good armies in terms of playability. That's quite different from the 40k bundles where they are usually either not legal armies at all or are terrible on their own.

Looks like a good deal then.
I'll look for a Cryx battle box. More Banes.

frozenwastes wrote:Those are some seriously good armies in terms of playability. That's quite different from the 40k bundles where they are usually either not legal armies at all or are terrible on their own.

Yeah, they are honestly great boxes, the Khador one is an EXACT army that I have played against (and nearly lost to) before.

durecellrabbit wrote:A Legion of Everblight one might be interesting if it has lots of their coolest monsters in it.

Saeryn, Omen of Everblight
Scythean
Neraph
Angelius
Nephilim Bloodseer
Striders Rangers
Strider Deathstalker
2 Blighted Nyss Shepherds

And the Protectorate one if anyone was wondering:

Grand Scrutator Severius
Reckoner
Vanquisher
Redeemer
Heirophant
Exemplar Errants
Choir of Menoth
Exemplar Errant Seneschal
Vassal of Menoth
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord

Note: All of the warbeasts and warjacks are the multi kits if available.

You can get those boxes for about 100$ from retailers. That's 50% of the individual prices! That's super insane!

 motyak wrote:

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
It's like they knew exactly what I wanted for Khador!

I was just thinking that. Yeah it has 2 jacks and thats a bit of a downer, but really its a good Sorscha box. Even has the lady and the master, who you'll find a use for everywhere

The Devastator doesn't even need focus. Its job is to bulldoze and "rain of death" everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
errrr uhm is that the Decimator? who cares!

Yeah, the boxed armies are great. Not 100% uber netlist competitive, but solid lists that you could easily use in local tournaments and probably do well. They don't seem aimed at beginners though, but veterans who want to get a solid core quickly.

The Khador box is a Spriggan and Demolisher, which is the same kit as the Spriggan and Devastator. So if you magnetize it you can have 2x Spriggans/Devastators/Demolishers, which also lets you do shenanigans with Butcher3 (double Clamjack) or even Harkevich if you want to try him (double Demolishers aren't terrible under Broadside).

I personally would not field two jacks with Sorscha, but there's nothing wrong with that approach (and a Clamjack is pretty focus efficient and good to hold a zone). That's a solid army, and if you can get it for like $100 at places like Discount Games or Miniature Market, that's even better. I'm seriously tempted by the Skorne one... and the Menoth one... and eagerly looking forward to the other ones. At $100 for a complete 35-point army, there's little or no reason not to buy it just to have it in the event I decide to start that faction down the road. My usual Warmachine budget is around $150 a month give or take.