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Me and a few friends picked up 6th at the tail end and now 7th. (After having sat out the tail end of 5th and 6th up until then) We felt the exact same way at first. I think our first 200pt game took like 4 hours.


However, a couple good points in here (like drawing a cross through the mini in your head) and just getting games under your belt makes things move along quicker.

Honestly though, you posted in Dakka Dakka, the GW hate here is pretty strong. The rules have issues, but none that I haven't been able to solve with my gaming group in a couple minutes. My group plays Battletech, Car Wars, A home brew WWII game we've been playing for years (might try flames of war or bolt action one day, but all our models are 1/35), Warmachine/Hordes, Fantasy...you name it and its not like every rule system is without issues, but I won't white knight GW, I've felt for years that they could really improve their rules without losing the flavor that makes it 40k. (For its part, 40k is more active at times for the defender...you get to roll dice to try to save your ass for cover and armor, which at least feels better than watching a guy roll dice and mark off your HP on a card, sometimes)


Such is life. <shrug>

 Saevus wrote:
Honestly though, you posted in Dakka Dakka, the GW hate here is pretty strong.

The GW rationally based, relevant criticisms that haven't been addressed by the company and in many cases have persisted through multiple editions, even getting worse over time. If you want an echo chamber, dakka is not the forum for you which is part of why it's so great.

 Yonan wrote:

 Saevus wrote:
Honestly though, you posted in Dakka Dakka, the GW hate here is pretty strong.

The GW rationally based, relevant criticisms that haven't been addressed by the company and in many cases have persisted through multiple editions, even getting worse over time. If you want an echo chamber, dakka is not the forum for you which is part of why it's so great.

There's a difference between legitimate criticism and the dakka hate train. Generally speaking the people who have intelligent and insightful criticisms are *not* the posters who actively seek to disparage gw and 40k everywhere and anywhere they can.

And posters who actively seek to disparage GW and 40K are few and far between.

Those that seem determined to defend GW and spin their actions positively, regardless of what they may be, seem much more common

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Saevus wrote:
Honestly though, you posted in Dakka Dakka, the GW hate here is pretty strong.

The GW rationally based, relevant criticisms that haven't been addressed by the company and in many cases have persisted through multiple editions, even getting worse over time. If you want an echo chamber, dakka is not the forum for you which is part of why it's so great.

There's a difference between legitimate criticism and the dakka hate train. Generally speaking the people who have intelligent and insightful criticisms are *not* the posters who actively seek to disparage gw and 40k everywhere and anywhere they can.

No, the "dakka hate train" is mislabled insightful criticism by those who don't like reading any criticism for some reason. It's been proven time and again that the vast majority of the complaints by the common posters (including myself) are rationally based and relevant to the topic at hand however much some people don't like to admit it.

Yes occasionally some people will resort to hyperbole out of frustration with either the game or those defenders of the game that constantly ignore rational points but it is far less frequent on "this side" of the argument than the other. It's hilarious that we've been accused, by name, of discussing our hatred in PMs with each other and organising this train to swamp threads for example to outweigh the positives with our negativity.

 Yonan wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Saevus wrote:
Hoinnestly though, you posted in Dakka Dakka, the GW hate here is pretty strong.

The GW rationally based, relevant criticisms that haven't been addressed by the company and in many cases have persisted through multiple editions, even getting worse over time. If you want an echo chamber, dakka is not the forum for you which is part of why it's so great.

There's a difference between legitimate criticism and the dakka hate train. Generally speaking the people who have intelligent and insightful criticisms are *not* the posters who actively seek to disparage gw and 40k everywhere and anywhere they can.

No, the "dakka hate train" is mislabled insightful criticism by those who don't like reading any criticism for some reason. It's been proven time and again that the vast majority of the complaints by the common posters (including myself) are rationally based and relevant to the topic at hand however much some people don't like to admit it.

Yes occasionally some people will resort to hyperbole out of frustration with either the game or those defenders of the game that constantly ignore rational points but it is far less frequent on "this side" of the argument than the other. It's hilarious that we've been accused, by name, of discussing our hatred in PMs with each other and organising this train to swamp threads for example to outweigh the positives with our negativity.

The collective postings of threads on dakka are generally perceived - by myself and by a large number of people, uncluding many dakkaites - as being anti-gw. There are certianly many opinions I wouldn't voice on this forum because I know that the same old posters (including both of you two by the way) will hoot and hollar and scream "white knight" until the only conversation that's left is the same old people debating the many and various ways that 40k/gw suck balls.

Your own posting in this thread - jumping into a topic with no intention of the discussing the op and simply slag off gw for no conscructive benefit to anyone, just because of a throwaway line someone made in a post that was actually addressing the op.

Citation needed.

Or, more accurately, your confirmation bias is showing.

"...until the only conversation that's left is the same old people debating the many and various ways that 40k/gw suck balls."

Yep. I dont bother anymore because those threads always end the same way. The more devoted argue (the same few) against a random assortment of others until nobody bothers and then they scratch each others backs before it dies or gets locked.

Its the cycle of GW hate. Been that way for since the mid 90s.

Both sides have extremes (lobby Watson, peregrine), but one side is clearly more devout in their belief. Hence why they have been here for years saying the same things.

Not much can and will be done. Soon those who dont complain as much or are sick of complaining either go to other threads or dissapear, while those that complain as often as possible carry on for up to years.

Not always the case but as a long time lurker its something I have noticed. Its simply not worth bothering being on either side of the argument really.

Just let the haters scratch each others backs and the apologists should just enjoy talking about what they can.

Those that have continued to post extreme views under the same user name should be applauded to some extent, as it means they've largely done so in a manner that hasn't incurred the wrath of the Mods sufficiently to get themselves perma banned, suggesting there is at least some merit to what they post.

There is an underclass of user who will appear, post inflammatory crap for a month or two until their list of infractions gets too long, crawl back under their rock and then start all over again a week or two later under a different username.

I have at least some respect for people who stand behind their arguments, whether I agree or not. Those who's motivation seems to be merely to incite have nothing but my contempt.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Yep. I dont bother anymore because those threads always end the same way. The more devoted argue (the same few) against a random assortment of others until nobody bothers and then they scratch each others backs before it dies or gets locked.

It's worth mentioning that they get locked when the pro-GW types throw insults at the anti-GW types which again has been proven. That says a lot about the two sides of the debates. As shown in this thread with labels such as "dakka hate train", accusations such as "scratching each others backs" when so many of the pro GWs will "exalted!" when a post agrees with their pont of view despite being previously rebutted on the same page and so on.

KommissarKarl wrote:
Your own posting in this thread - jumping into a topic with no intention of the discussing the op and simply slag off gw for no conscructive benefit to anyone, just because of a throwaway line someone made in a post that was actually addressing the op.

What the hell? I've been posting stuff directly related to the OP saying how poor he thought the rules were. Then someone accused us of being a hate train - do you really expect that to go unanswered when it disparages our viewpoints? Please explain to me how my first post wasn't directly related to the OPs topic and how my second post wasn't directly related to defending my opinion against a baseless attack. If you don't like threads being derailed by us defending our positions against baseless attacks and insults like that then for emperors sake please stop doing it yourself and ask others to stop doing it too.

To quote a very relevant point from Azreals sig:

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

We love having a good discussion with those who disagree with us. My opinions have changed somewhat because of it - but when we get barraged with insults it's not very conducive to discussion and makes you and your "side" look less than stellar.

 Yonan wrote:
GW has been hiring and retaining stuff for their yes-men skills rather than their game design skills - the CEO admitted as much in his investor preamble in the last week.

Well that would explain why we have Cruddace as an author. But how would Jervis take this? Wouldn't you be insulted from this? Then again, I find the rules are Horrible for 40K for a long time, but understand that Sales get in the way and ruined a once good thing.

I guess all the authors and people who make rules and test them for GW should be insulted. :You guys are not hired because of talent but because when Sales tells you to do something, you guys do it."

Davor wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
GW has been hiring and retaining stuff for their yes-men skills rather than their game design skills - the CEO admitted as much in his investor preamble in the last week.

Well that would explain why we have Cruddace as an author. But how would Jervis take this? Wouldn't you be insulted from this? Then again, I find the rules are Horrible for 40K for a long time, but understand that Sales get in the way and ruined a once good thing.

I guess all the authors and people who make rules and test them for GW should be insulted. :You guys are not hired because of talent but because when Sales tells you to do something, you guys do it."

Well it was their boss that said it.

Sounds like all your complaints either involve you not knowing the rules or they're just not issues at all but the rule just not being to your liking.

Davor wrote:
Wouldn't you be insulted from this?

Kirby is the genius who said it though, so if employees at GW are insulted by it they should take it up with their CEO.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Yep, you've discovered what countless people before you have found: the rules for 40k are garbage that anyone other than GW would commit suicide in shame over if they had published them.

Aw, c,mon, Peregrine, I mean, we know you're 'not a fan' but, seriously?
Stuff like this goes beyond any sensible criticism and just makes the author look like an over-emotional, hyperbolic fool.

He's exagerating, but truth been told, the core rules haven't evolved that much since the late 90's, and it shows.

And when they evolved, it's not exactly always the kind of evolution that improves the game experience.

DaPino wrote:
Sounds like all your complaints either involve you not knowing the rules or they're just not issues at all but the rule just not being to your liking.

You haven't been paying attention then.
Take a look at this thread. It spells it out quite clearly.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603134.page

If you want to avoid most (not all) of these problems here is the secret:

Play Starcraft 2.

Best strategy game ever, period.

I'm newer to 40k, but I've found balance in 40k to be pretty good of late. Especially after 7th. Currently the only broken thing I've seen is playing demon factory in low point games. In high point games I just dakka the demons off the board. 40k 7th is a good game. It has problems and some writing that needs clarification, but I've found it to be enjoyable. Also, random charge distance may be bad or good, but the best way to deal with it is to be within 7-6" of the enemy when you charge, including the difficult modifier. The odds at that point are downright stacked in your favor. Just don't use your best assault unit first when assaulting Tau. Supporting fire blobs are nasty if you do something stupid.

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

All games are meant for fun with friends. Bad rules diminish that fun, so Warhammer40k actually does a lot worse at doing what it's meant to do than other games.

 Yonan wrote:
The GW rationally based, relevant criticisms that haven't been addressed by the company and in many cases have persisted through multiple editions, even getting worse over time. If you want an echo chamber, dakka is not the forum for you which is part of why it's so great.

But Dakkadakka is an echo-chamber, just a negative kind instead of a positive one.
And as time goes by, it gets worse and worse.

No, the "dakka hate train" is mislabled insightful criticism by those who don't like reading any criticism for some reason. It's been proven time and again that the vast majority of the complaints by the common posters (including myself) are rationally based and relevant to the topic at hand however much some people don't like to admit it.

True.
But lately these "insightful criticisms" have to suddenly be posted in every single thread and they are getting more in the lines of "GW sucks! Better play another game" and personal attacks towards the company and its employees.

It's happening to the point where I just ignore most threads because it are the same old complaints repeated over and over, even when they are inappropriate in the thread.

Kangodo wrote:

But Dakkadakka is an echo-chamber, just a negative kind instead of a positive one.
And as time goes by, it gets worse and worse.

No, it isn't.

Maybe instead of looking at it as a black and white positive vs. negative, you can view it as a number of people who are critical of a company harming a game they either still love or once loved?

Ventiscogreen wrote:
I'm newer to 40k, but I've found balance in 40k to be pretty good of late. Especially after 7th. Currently the only broken thing I've seen is playing demon factory in low point games. In high point games I just dakka the demons off the board. 40k 7th is a good game. It has problems and some writing that needs clarification, but I've found it to be enjoyable. Also, random charge distance may be bad or good, but the best way to deal with it is to be within 7-6" of the enemy when you charge, including the difficult modifier. The odds at that point are downright stacked in your favor. Just don't use your best assault unit first when assaulting Tau. Supporting fire blobs are nasty if you do something stupid.

Lol, yeah I started playing my Tzeentch Daemons from Fantasy in 40k, and my first game was 500 points. It was stupid good. But, in high points games, Daemon Factory is not as viable/good as people think it is. "Oh no! You summoned another unit of T3 5+ save guys!!! Ahhhh!"

Still you have to admit that 1 out of 10 only say positive things.
You to ask 2
Questions:
1] How many Positive Opinions are not Posting?
2] How many Negative Opinions are posting?

Everyone I playing with have nothing but positive things to say. Out of the half dozen, I am the only one on Dakka.
That there show not everyone thinks things are that bad. Making most "Opinion Polls" invalid.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Still you have to admit that 1 out of 10 only say positive things.

Do you have evidence for this? Have you thought about the reasons why that may be the case if those numbers could be verified? What constitutes positive vice negative? Why does it have to a matter of positive vs negative?

You to ask 2
Questions:
1] How many Positive Opinions are not Posting?
2] How many Negative Opinions are posting?

Sure. Everyone acknowledges that forums represent only the population of people who use the forums, and by rough extension their immediate group through anecdotal evidence.

Everyone I playing with have nothing but positive things to say. Out of the half dozen, I am the only one on Dakka.
That there show not everyone thinks things are that bad. Making most "Opinion Polls" invalid.

Good for you. I'm sure there are plenty of people with similar experiences as well. I'm also sure there as many, if not more, with the opposite experience.

 Spectre_UK wrote:
Games Workshop really need to sit down with their rulebook, some newbie gamers and observe how easily the rulebook instructs how to play the game. Compared to other wargames I've played, 40k falls short by some margin.

"We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose [unnecessary] in a niche."
- Tom Kirby, Chairman & CEO, from the Games Workshop Annual Report, published July 29, 2014.

---

Kangodo wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
The GW rationally based, relevant criticisms that haven't been addressed by the company and in many cases have persisted through multiple editions, even getting worse over time. If you want an echo chamber, dakka is not the forum for you which is part of why it's so great.

But Dakkadakka is an echo-chamber, just a negative kind instead of a positive one.
And as time goes by, it gets worse and worse.

No, the "dakka hate train" is mislabled insightful criticism by those who don't like reading any criticism for some reason. It's been proven time and again that the vast majority of the complaints by the common posters (including myself) are rationally based and relevant to the topic at hand however much some people don't like to admit it.

True.
But lately these "insightful criticisms" have to suddenly be posted in every single thread and they are getting more in the lines of "GW sucks! Better play another game" and personal attacks towards the company and its employees.

It's happening to the point where I just ignore most threads because it are the same old complaints repeated over and over, even when they are inappropriate in the thread.

Anpu42 wrote:Still you have to admit that 1 out of 10 only say positive things.
You to ask 2
Questions:
1] How many Positive Opinions are not Posting?
2] How many Negative Opinions are posting?

Everyone I playing with have nothing but positive things to say. Out of the half dozen, I am the only one on Dakka.
That there show not everyone thinks things are that bad. Making most "Opinion Polls" invalid.

You must only read GW thread if you belive that. Most others are quite nice.

Kangodo wrote:
But Dakkadakka is an echo-chamber, just a negative kind instead of a positive one.
And as time goes by, it gets worse and worse.

Actually I see Dakka as a fairly balanced 'echo-chamber' for the most part. It just seems like it's getting worse because GW is getting worse and more people are seeing it.

I find that many of the critics of GW are often posting criticism of one particular section of the company - those you'd find in the boardroom, and how their decisions impact the game and products (e.g. pricing). They are often still happy to collect, build, paint and play. OK, there's always some criticism of new releases too, but I don't think anyone likes every model that comes out.

OP, I too find the Assault Phase very cumbersome. One thing that often ends up happening when I play is that rather than working out who can and can't swing in CC, we simply let every model in each unit fight regardless of whether they can reach. Now for all I know that might make some fights horribly unbalanced by favouring melee-specific troops, or something. But at least it speeds things up.

You could house-rule it so that charge range is 6'. It was until 5th edition, after all. I think if you went around 100 different games of WH40K up and down the country you'd find so many house rules and interpretations that no two would be exactly alike.

I don't see why it can't be fun if you're playing to have a good time. While not perfect overall the rules have come a long way since second edition.