Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

pm713 wrote:

Agentwise wrote:
Sigvatr is just in Denial that Necrons got updated and aren't Terminators anymore. I know alot of people try to hang onto old fluff, but the fluff is gone now. Thats what happens when your book gets an update, your fluffgets re worked.

Pretty sure there is no canon therefore what I say goes (for me).

Thats not how canon works, if the people who make the series/books/stories say something unless they explictily stated its non-canon then its canon.
Everything in the books is canon.

Agentwise wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Agentwise wrote:
Sigvatr is just in Denial that Necrons got updated and aren't Terminators anymore. I know alot of people try to hang onto old fluff, but the fluff is gone now. Thats what happens when your book gets an update, your fluffgets re worked.

Pretty sure there is no canon therefore what I say goes (for me).

Thats not how canon works, if the people who make the series/books/stories say something unless they explictily stated its non-canon then its canon.
Everything in the books is canon.

Everything in the books happens in universe but in 40k we don't know how. For example the Ciaphas Cain books could be propaganda told to new guardsmen to inspire them. That is the canon of the books and I'm still 99% sure there isn't any canon at all.

pm713 wrote:

Everything in the books happens in universe but in 40k we don't know how. For example the Ciaphas Cain books could be propaganda told to new guardsmen to inspire them. That is the canon of the books and I'm still 99% sure there isn't any canon at all.

If your argument is "Its not cannon because I don't like the fluff so im saying its propaganda" then its not even worth discussing it with you. There isn't anything that suggests that the books are propaganda, we KNOW what happened to the C'tan (hell we even have models of them being trapped). Thats fine if you want the Crons to be mindless, clanless, killing machines but in the fluff they aren't. It would be like me saying Crons are all jsut metal robots that were taken over by the Hive Mind which is why the Nids don't attack them they are just other nids to them so in reality crons are jsut nids lap dogs. It doesnt make any sense and theres no fluff to support it, but I like it more.

Agentwise wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Everything in the books happens in universe but in 40k we don't know how. For example the Ciaphas Cain books could be propaganda told to new guardsmen to inspire them. That is the canon of the books and I'm still 99% sure there isn't any canon at all.

If your argument is "Its not cannon because I don't like the fluff so im saying its propaganda" then its not even worth discussing it with you. There isn't anything that suggests that the books are propaganda, we KNOW what happened to the C'tan (hell we even have models of them being trapped). Thats fine if you want the Crons to be mindless, clanless, killing machines but in the fluff they aren't. It would be like me saying Crons are all jsut metal robots that were taken over by the Hive Mind which is why the Nids don't attack them they are just other nids to them so in reality crons are jsut nids lap dogs. It doesnt make any sense and theres no fluff to support it, but I like it more.

That really isn't what I'm doing but whatever.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
I've never owned Necrons and i've only played against them twice and read the basics of their fiction but they seem to hold the role of 'unstoppable bad guy force' . Unfortunately for them the much more popular Tyranids and Orks already fill this role and have much more of a presence in the universe meaning Necrons are forgotten about.

This is awesome for the Necrons. They might be mindless and nigh-immortal killer robots, but by destroying a Tomb World, you can effectively take them out. If the Empire of Men would be smart, they would realize that they are a giant threat and Necrons might be in trouble. But since they aren't, the only ones who know are the Eldar and their forces are extremely limited, posing no threat to the Necrons and the C'tan.

Surprise, the Empire that is focused on praying to a rotten corpse isn't smart

Too much bureaucracy in IoM. They know, it will just take another 100 years or so before it gets in the right hands.

The Necrons fit into the fluff. Now the Tau on the other hand.....

Davor wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
I've never owned Necrons and i've only played against them twice and read the basics of their fiction but they seem to hold the role of 'unstoppable bad guy force' . Unfortunately for them the much more popular Tyranids and Orks already fill this role and have much more of a presence in the universe meaning Necrons are forgotten about.

This is awesome for the Necrons. They might be mindless and nigh-immortal killer robots, but by destroying a Tomb World, you can effectively take them out. If the Empire of Men would be smart, they would realize that they are a giant threat and Necrons might be in trouble. But since they aren't, the only ones who know are the Eldar and their forces are extremely limited, posing no threat to the Necrons and the C'tan.

Surprise, the Empire that is focused on praying to a rotten corpse isn't smart

Too much bureaucracy in IoM. They know, it will just take another 100 years or so before it gets in the right hands.

...and sacrifice a few thousand people each day just because

A Skeever wrote:
The Necrons fit into the fluff. Now the Tau on the other hand.....

Tau do fit though. They are not as clean cut and happy clappy good guys as people think they are on the surface.

The Tau are pretty damn grimdark when you really delve into their background.

 Grimtuff wrote:

A Skeever wrote:
The Necrons fit into the fluff. Now the Tau on the other hand.....

Tau do fit though. They are not as clean cut and happy clappy good guys as people think they are on the surface.

The Tau are pretty damn grimdark when you really delve into their background.

GW can write fluff however they want to try and fit tau in, but there are still going to be alot of folks who see the disconnect in the visual style of the Tau vs the rest of the grimdark universe.

 60mm wrote:
Necrons though? Terminator rip-offs. Snooze. "We'll Be Back!" Totally not a T2 rip-off. They should get motorcycles and an Asta-la-byebye rule too.

Newsflash! Everything in 40k is a blatant ripoff. What GW is good at is not originality but rathet grimdark twisting of ideas which in case of Necrons worked briliantly, with Terminators changed into ancient, menacing, Lovecraft esque silent force of pure death. Egyptian vibe was a perfect fit too.

That was Oldcrons though. With newcrons menace turned into siliness, Lovecraft in space into Pirates of the Caribean in space, Egyptian vibe into Egyptian bling and perfect horror born miniatures into their own sad parody of robots riding robots.

Still being undead in space, silly newcrons fit the universe 100 more than Tau and if they were ever ditching races, I'd even prefer emo eldar to go first and join squats in the garbage, leaving the few good designs they have to better races.

 Eilif wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

A Skeever wrote:
The Necrons fit into the fluff. Now the Tau on the other hand.....

Tau do fit though. They are not as clean cut and happy clappy good guys as people think they are on the surface.

The Tau are pretty damn grimdark when you really delve into their background.

GW can write fluff however they want to try and fit tau in, but there are still going to be alot of folks who see the disconnect in the visual style of the Tau vs the rest of the grimdark universe.

Because everyone else just look identical to each other?
What kind of a silly point is "its not fit because it has its own look"
Yes, tau dont do "bling for bling sake", they make things practical and efficient. the horror! the heresy!
Is an army NOT made of idiots really brake your grimdark so much, even if its the smallest and weakest from the "main" factions?

I think one of the reasons Tau fit so well is because they are so small and weak. Whereas every single other faction out there (bar the Sandwich Sisters, but let's say they belong to IG) seems to be ridiculously overblown and powerful, the Tau seem to be borderline believable. For once, we have a faction that's not hiding a supermegadeathswag weapon back in the back of the universe.

And as others already stated: if you get into their fluff, it gets pretty dark soon; i.e. read up on what they do to people who don't want to join their empire.

They may be insignificant at this moment, but that puts them on the same level as Necrons. While the C'tan are already out there, the Necrons themselves are slowly awakening and far from the level of power they will assume once fully awakened. Right now, they don't have much power with most of it being non-acccessible (Void Dragon: locked on Mars, Outsider: exiled himself, Deceiver and Nightbringer bromancing around, most Necrons still sleeping).

While the Necrons are already destined to destroy the universe, as prophetized by the Eldar, who knows what time will bring for the Tau. They might become quite a force to be reckoned with for the lesser people.

Unless Gargamel decides to show up and kick their ass. Sorry, mandatoy joke.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

A Skeever wrote:
The Necrons fit into the fluff. Now the Tau on the other hand.....

Tau do fit though. They are not as clean cut and happy clappy good guys as people think they are on the surface.

The Tau are pretty damn grimdark when you really delve into their background.

GW can write fluff however they want to try and fit tau in, but there are still going to be alot of folks who see the disconnect in the visual style of the Tau vs the rest of the grimdark universe.

Because everyone else just look identical to each other?
What kind of a silly point is "its not fit because it has its own look"
Yes, tau dont do "bling for bling sake", they make things practical and efficient. the horror! the heresy!
Is an army NOT made of idiots really brake your grimdark so much, even if its the smallest and weakest from the "main" factions?

They should have a darker image though, think sectoids from the recent xcom dark and scary or sth. Not bling or skulls but just more serious look, now without helmets they are more like a race from star wars rather than 40k, also kroot with their warcraftish design. They break grimdark not because theyre not idiots but because they looktoo nice.

New broadside looks incredible though.

I still prefer the old Necron fluff from when they were first released, specifically that they were the 40k equivalent of the Fantasy Mummy army. No one knew who they were, why they were, how they were, what they wanted - all we knew was that they were ancient, they were not alive, and they were coming back. None of this "we are alive in inorganic bodies deceived by Star Eaters into worshipping them as gods, QQ" BS that got into he fluff. Necrons were much more interesting before they went Emo and bro fisted a bunch of space vampires.

SJ

Plumbumbarum wrote:


They should have a darker image though, think sectoids from the recent xcom dark and scary or sth. Not bling or skulls but just more serious look, now without helmets they are more like a race from star wars rather than 40k, also kroot with their warcraftish design. They break grimdark not because theyre not idiots but because they looktoo nice.

New broadside looks incredible though.

I really disagree here. The Necrons are not grimdark because they look menacing and because they are mindless, mute killing machines. The Necrons are grimdark because of their fluff. Forced to live short lives in cities made of giant graves, deceived by a god, they chose to give up their souls, forever to be mindless slaves stuck in nigh-immortal metal bodies.

The Tau look funny and not serious, but their fluff shows why they belong in that setting.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:


They should have a darker image though, think sectoids from the recent xcom dark and scary or sth. Not bling or skulls but just more serious look, now without helmets they are more like a race from star wars rather than 40k, also kroot with their warcraftish design. They break grimdark not because theyre not idiots but because they looktoo nice.

New broadside looks incredible though.

I really disagree here. The Necrons are not grimdark because they look menacing and because they are mindless, mute killing machines. The Necrons are grimdark because of their fluff. Forced to live short lives in cities made of giant graves, deceived by a god, they chose to give up their souls, forever to be mindless slaves stuck in nigh-immortal metal bodies.

The Tau look funny and not serious, but their fluff shows why they belong in that setting.

You can't ignore aesthetics, unicorns shooting rainbows will not fit 40k even if their backstory consists only of rapine, torturing children and burning churches. In my case, visual mood comes first and thats probably why crisis suits looking like 3+ toys and tau looking nice and fishy bother me in 40k. Yes fluff is important too but what hurt necrons even more for me are the new miniatures and the artwork that came with them. My opinion ofc.

Are Tau unicorns shooting rainbows?

 Sigvatr wrote:
Are Tau unicorns shooting rainbows?

No, but ironically one of the more grim-dark factions do, provided a guardsmen can hit the broadside of a prism.

I don't think new crons fit.

Agentwise wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Agentwise wrote:
Sigvatr is just in Denial that Necrons got updated and aren't Terminators anymore. I know alot of people try to hang onto old fluff, but the fluff is gone now. Thats what happens when your book gets an update, your fluffgets re worked.

Pretty sure there is no canon therefore what I say goes (for me).

Thats not how canon works, if the people who make the series/books/stories say something unless they explictily stated its non-canon then its canon.
Everything in the books is canon.

There is no canon in 40K in the sense that nothing published under the GW/BL banner is more or less canon than something else published under the same banner.

This is nicely summed up on Gav Thorpe's blog:
http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

 Psienesis wrote:

Agentwise wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Agentwise wrote:
Sigvatr is just in Denial that Necrons got updated and aren't Terminators anymore. I know alot of people try to hang onto old fluff, but the fluff is gone now. Thats what happens when your book gets an update, your fluffgets re worked.

Pretty sure there is no canon therefore what I say goes (for me).

Thats not how canon works, if the people who make the series/books/stories say something unless they explictily stated its non-canon then its canon.
Everything in the books is canon.

There is no canon in 40K in the sense that nothing published under the GW/BL banner is more or less canon than something else published under the same banner.

This is nicely summed up on Gav Thorpe's blog:
http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

Considering he wrote the 4th edition CSM codex, it's pretty fitting he wouldn't care about canon.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I still prefer the old Necron fluff from when they were first released, specifically that they were the 40k equivalent of the Fantasy Mummy army. No one knew who they were, why they were, how they were, what they wanted - all we knew was that they were ancient, they were not alive, and they were coming back. None of this "we are alive in inorganic bodies deceived by Star Eaters into worshipping them as gods, QQ" BS that got into he fluff. Necrons were much more interesting before they went Emo and bro fisted a bunch of space vampires.

SJ

Wow, that doesn't sound good at all for Oldcrons. I prefer the Newcrons if just going from what you say. Oldcrons is like, "we have no idea what to say for them, so they are old, and we don't know where they come from, why or how, but they are coming back but we don't know why." That is so dull and boring, at least in my opinion. Now Necrons have a purpose, like it or not.

How do you call that more interesting when it's "we don't know who or what we are, but we are going to kill you for no reason." Going off what you say. I don't have the old Necron codex so I can't say how it was like, just going off what you say. And what you say doesn't make it interesting at all.

That's how I feel too.
"We are zombie robots and we're evil because.. because we're zombie robots."
That's not really interesting and it's how I see the old fluff.

I also prefer the new stories and origin.

Fellow dakkanites, sit down, have a drink and listen to the story of the Necrons. The truth, the full truth, not the lies the weak Empire of Men is trying to feed to you. Understand why the Necrons are what they are. Embrace the truth. And be afraid. For their story is dark and full of terror.

Davor wrote:


How do you call that more interesting when it's "we don't know who or what we are, but we are going to kill you for no reason." Going off what you say. I don't have the old Necron codex so I can't say how it was like, just going off what you say. And what you say doesn't make it interesting at all.

Going off by what someone's saying is a terrible idea

You still find the TruCron fluff in internet wikis, but here's a short summary:

Before the Necrons were the Necrontyr, an actual civilization of living beings. Their life, however, was miserable. They died at a very young age due to radioactive sun radiation and their "cities" were nothing but giant tomb cities. Giant, black, square buildings serving both as tombs and houses. One day, the Necrontyr discovered the C'tan - gods. Actual, corporeal gods unlike the Chaos Gods who aren't physical. The C'tan slumbered in suns, consuming their energy to strengthen themselves. Their counterparts were the Old Ones.

The Old Ones were the first thing that lived in the entire universe, reptilian race capable of creating life, created at the same time as the C'tan. They created life as we know it.

One day, the Necrontyr met the Old Ones and longed for their immortality. They asked them to share their immortality with them as they lived their short, painful lives in misery. The Old Ones refused and the Necrons were fueled with jealousy and anger. And thus began a terrible war, the first war in the history of the universe. The Necrontyr had no chance though, due to the Old Ones' mastery of the webway. The Necrontyr were almost annihilated and reduced to a mere fraction yet the Old Ones did not kill them off, letting them rot filled with hatred. And then, the C'tan were discovered.

Immortal gods. This was what the Necrontyr longed for. A weapon to be used to defeat the Old Ones. At this stage, however, the C'tan weren't actual creatures, they were energy. Pure, raw energy. And thus the Necrontyr used their incredible technology to create the Necrodermis, an armor, a suit to contain this immense power. Now becoming actual beings that could be understood, the Necrontyr knelt to their newly-found gods and ultimate weapon against the Old Ones. They were ready to strike and ruin them once and for all. But the C'tan had one last gift for the Necrontyr: immortality.

Immortality. This is what the Necrontyr always longed for. And now, it was so close. No more short and painful lives in constant misery. Immortality. And that is what they got indeed. The C'tan betrayed their minions. They replaced their flesh with the metal hulls you already know and consumed their souls. The entire race of Necrontyr was completely annihilated at that day. Extincted. What once were the Necrontyr now are the Necrons. Soulless, empty husks, following their immortal leaders, the C'tan. They finally got their immortality.

There was no anger, however, among the Necrons. They now were truly immortal. They lost their ability to speak. They lost their free will. They lost everything but one thing: hatred. The eternal hatred for all life. That is what still drives the once proud race: hatred for life. The Necron's ultimate goal is the total destruction of all life in the entire universe and they will not stop until this goal has been fulfilled.

The war against the Old Ones began anew and this time, the Old Ones did not stand a chance. Against nigh-immortal enemies and gods, they could not win. They were crushed under the hands of the C'Tan. Their last deed was trying to create one last counter to the C'tan, a race with a strong connection to the warp: the Eldar. But all was in vain, as the Old Ones were killed and their followers were enslaved by the Enslaves, minions of the C'tan.

The universe was almost done for. Almost all life has been gone. But at this point, the C'tan changed their mind. Their endless greed let them decide to go in a long sleep, along with all their minions, for the universe to grow anew, again ripe for their taking. They would sleep until a race awakened them that was suitable for their hunger for souls and control. Then came the long sleep.

One day, a group of Space Marines awakened The Nightbringer and set the gears in motion. Mankind was destined to be the race that spells doom for the entire universe. As for this time, the C'tan would not stop until they and their minions, the Necrons, finally achieved their goal: utter destruction.

The next harvest is coming, and only the Eldar know the sad truth the universe is looking into.

The end is drawing near and time is on the Necron's side. Should they continue to be ignored, then they get back to their old power and the C'tan wreck havok upon all life.

That is the history of the Necrons. A former actual race, living in misery, deceived by their saviors, driven by hatred. An endless army of immortal machines. A horror on the battlefield. A nightmare to behold. The universe's omega.

The Necrons.

Davor wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I still prefer the old Necron fluff from when they were first released, specifically that they were the 40k equivalent of the Fantasy Mummy army. No one knew who they were, why they were, how they were, what they wanted - all we knew was that they were ancient, they were not alive, and they were coming back. None of this "we are alive in inorganic bodies deceived by Star Eaters into worshipping them as gods, QQ" BS that got into he fluff. Necrons were much more interesting before they went Emo and bro fisted a bunch of space vampires.

SJ

Wow, that doesn't sound good at all for Oldcrons. I prefer the Newcrons if just going from what you say. Oldcrons is like, "we have no idea what to say for them, so they are old, and we don't know where they come from, why or how, but they are coming back but we don't know why." That is so dull and boring, at least in my opinion. Now Necrons have a purpose, like it or not.

How do you call that more interesting when it's "we don't know who or what we are, but we are going to kill you for no reason." Going off what you say. I don't have the old Necron codex so I can't say how it was like, just going off what you say. And what you say doesn't make it interesting at all.

Not knowing is more interesting than being lead by the nose with a poorly written fluffy background. GW had an excellent opportunity to write a very ancient history to support an undead army of machines, yet instead wrote a pastel Saturday morning cartoon background that paints the Necron as fools. One of the major literary issues with GW s that they attempt to write too much background for armies, which is completely unnessessary. Keeping things mysterious adds a sense of imagination, while trying to answer everything limits the imagination as well as paints themselves into a corner of contradictions. Simply writing the Nervon history from the point of view of archaeological scholars piecing to gather forgotten lore would have been far superior to the Emo skele-dolls we got.

Which is a shame.

SJ

The war against the Old Ones began anew and this time, the Old Ones did not stand a chance. Against nigh-immortal enemies and gods, they could not win. They were crushed under the hands of the C'Tan. Their last deed was trying to create one last counter to the C'tan, a race with a strong connection to the warp: the Eldar. But all was in vain, as the Old Ones were killed and their followers were enslaved by the Enslaves, minions of the C'tan.

Could you at least keep your "TruCron" ravings towards actual fluff, like the fact that the Enslavers aren't related to the C'tan at all, that they are infact a species of Warp Creature, and that the Necrons couldn't even kill off the Old Ones, but instead it was the Enslavers who did because of their direct connection to the warp.

That is the history of the Necrons. A former actual race, living in misery, deceived by their saviors, driven by hatred. An endless army of immortal machines. A horror on the battlefield. A nightmare to behold. The universe's omega.

The Necrons.

The Metal Tyranids.

They lost their ability to speak.

Xenology disagrees with you.

One day, the Necrontyr discovered the C'tan - gods. Actual, corporeal gods unlike the Chaos Gods who aren't physical.

Powerful Alien Beings.

The war against the Old Ones began anew and this time, the Old Ones did not stand a chance. Against nigh-immortal enemies and gods, they could not win. They were crushed under the hands of the C'Tan. Their last deed was trying to create one last counter to the C'tan, a race with a strong connection to the warp: the Eldar

Were created long before, the Old Ones were helping them advance long before they decided to fight them. Orks were built during the combat with Necrotyr as an endless warrior race.

So.. Sigvatr..
The main difference is that now they were enslaved instead of turned into zombies?
And if I am correct, they went into their sleep to recover.
After they fought back to their 'Gods' and destroyed most of them.

Cool story, but their background changed (slightly).
Their goal changed from destruction to complete domination.

Which reminds me! We really need a model for Szarekh.

Thats not the only change. They went from destroying everything to wanting to take over like everyone else really.

Kangodo wrote:
So.. Sigvatr..
The main difference is that now they were enslaved instead of turned into zombies?

If you want to narrow it down to one main difference:

TruCrons = Terminators

NewCrons = Egyptians in space

There are quite a few differences like NewCrons wanting to get new bodies now, can speak, behave like humans, C'tan became Pokemons etc. NewCrons essentialy are even more generic than TruCrons - yet Ward managed to slip more plotholes in than one may have feared

TruCrons? Ooh, you mean the outdated and irrelevant codex!

Can we - after three years - please stop this already?
Their 2002 Codex is dead. It is no more. The fluff is gone and the lore is gone.

They are still "terminators", they just didn't lose their personality after their transformation.
And we can all be glad for that.