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I'm a Nids player but I do have some Chaos models (Deamons and CSM)

I really love the Soulgrinder, its basicly everything that I could want in a model, very tough, very damagy and can work well in all ranges, long range medium and even a brutal close combat fighter, hell they even made it a decent soft counter to flyers just for sheets and giggles.

I was comparing the Rippers as a cheap access to OS with deepstrike to the Nurglings and realised that if you just compare stats and abilities, you would think that the Nurglings should be about twice the points, in true GW fashion they said screw that, lets forget balance and do whatever we want. and made them the exact same point despite having an extra Ws, Bs, W, Ini, 2 Ld, doesnt suffer from instinctive behavior (Ld really would be nice here), have shrouded, Fear, infiltrate AND an 5++....for the same price... does the same role... granted they are a bit taller so its easier to keep the ripper behind LOS blocking terain and they are slow and purposefull but lets say its still a MASSIVE fail balance-wise.

Anyways I wanted to see how strong a list for chaos deamons could be in 7th and I think I found a good example of how strong they could be.

Deamon Army of Nurgle doom

260 1x Kugath the plague Father
260 1x Great Unclean One / Lvl 3 wizard / 1x Greater Reward
260 1x Great Unclean One / Lvl 3 wizard / 1x Greater Reward

45 3x Nurgling
45 3x Nurgling
45 3x Nurgling
45 3x Nurgling

180 1x Soulgrinder / Phlegm Bombardment
180 1x Soulgrinder / Phlegm Bombardment
180 1x Soulgrinder / Phlegm Bombardment
175 1x Soulgrinder / Warp Gaze
175 1x Soulgrinder / Warp Gaze

Total 1850pts


Is it just me or is this completely broken strong?!

I would feel really bad using this... even in a competitive setting.

Color me confused as to why this is even close to broken.

Hmm me too... What's so great about it exactly? I agree that nurglings got a huge buff in this edition, and they do make a very handy troops choice. I also agree that soulgrinders are brilliant (even more so now that they don't compete with daemon princes and the damage table is a little nicer). I just don't see what's so great with this list...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I'd never give warp gaze to grinders (1 shot at bs3... I think not!), and tzeentch or slaanesh is a much better alignment for them depending on their role.

Isn't Shrouding, allowing for a 3+ or even 2+ cover save, ridicoulously awesome on an all around amazing model a good thing, (also just to keep Nurgle theme).
I agree that running a bit faster (slaanesh) or having a 16% chance to get a new 33% chance to avoid each wound taken (tzeentch) isnt bad but it doesnt seem to compare to potentially doubling or trippling your saves power.

Reconsidering it I do agree that the warp gaze is a bit of a strech to make it worth it, probably the torrent would be better.

this list is nasty through having 5 semi invicible, brutal damage dealers at all range plus good psykers which are very tough (who do you shoot, the T7 6-7 Wounds models or the soulgrinders?!, how many high str cannon shots can you pull per turn?!! Can it ignore coversaves?) good deamon summoning to boot. and some very solid objective holders for cheap.

I dont think that many list could handle all these big guys, and no one can be confident getting within charge range of thisa list since thay all hit hard in close combat too.

anti infantry weapon are mostly useless against this list and few list can deal with all these high priority threats which are about as tough as anything can get in the warhammer universe (except if you spend 500pts per model)

I think you are looking at this list from a nid perspective, sure Nids would have a tough time against it. But other armies have a very good chance against it.

I don't see how this is broken. I think any decent Eldar list would wipe the floor with it.

Your units are only semi-invincible when camping in cover meaning you aren't moving forward at all and don't do anything but shoot which your army has very little of. All you have is the grinders and ku'goth and some witchfires. All the shooting the GUO get are real short range so will never get in range. That leaves you all your large Ordnance (and snap-fireing the Harvestors which does nothing). The range is not very long on any of them so is not hard to kite, your opponent can get cover too and spread out thus reducing the damage your blasts do. And they have a hard time killing vehicles now that you can't get a lucky explosion with them meaning if you're opponent is a mech list you will have a hard time killing anything. Plus they can just maneuver to positions where you aren't obscured

If you aren't camping in cover and advancing towards the enemy then there is no reason to run everything as Nurgle because it gives you drawbacks at the extra cost.

you see, you guys are saying that it wouldnt do too good against other lists but crunching some numbers I just cant agree.

take a the example of the hyper competitive waveserpent spam (as was proposed that eldar would destroy this list)

Wave serpents really dont do much to Soulgrinders. the scatter lasers, being Str6 are completely harmless to it(aside from TL-ing the serpent shield).
lets assume 8x waveserpents (gonna be difficult to fit more than 8 in a 1850pts list) all unload on a soulgrinder. 8 times D6+1hits should average 36 hits, now, just for fun lets assume they ALL hit, with TL it could happen, its unlikely but lets assume a relatively good scenario for eldars.
these 36 hits boil down to 6 glancing hits, with his 5++ invul the full army of a very cheesy strong list can barely, barely (requires luck) kill 1 soulgrinder per turn.

what happens when his wave serpents start dying? 2 turn to kill one soulgrinder!?

not very efficient if you ask me.

5 soulgrinders would give serpent spam a great challenge.

what else do eldars have? jetbikes? they cant touch the soulgrinders. Bright lances, sure their ok but they dont ignore cover, I could have a 2+cover save with proper positionning against them. Wraithknights? yeah they could do ok too, but the soulgrinders still get cover saves against them and will harm them quite well if they get in close combat with their Str10, and the phlegm bombardment and poison attacks in this list could do a number on them too.

lets say I think it could handle just about anything eldar can throw at them.

if I need to I can deepstrike my GUO to help them get in range with their blast

Am I missing something?

you guys are just saying its not gonna do good with nothing to back up the statement. (with the exception of mr Crownaxe, thank you for actually backing up what you are saying, I do agree that this isnt the shootiest list but it isnt exactly harmless either, it is focused mre toward being tough and close combat efficient and summoning deamons)

surely im missing something, please enlighten me dakkanaught.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
you see, you guys are saying that it wouldnt do too good against other lists but crunching some numbers I just cant agree.

take a the example of the hyper competitive waveserpent spam (as was proposed that eldar would destroy this list)

Wave serpents really dont do much to Soulgrinders. the scatter lasers, being Str6 are completely harmless to it(aside from TL-ing the serpent shield).
lets assume 8x waveserpents (gonna be difficult to fit more than 8 in a 1850pts list) all unload on a soulgrinder. 8 times D6+1hits should average 36 hits, now, just for fun lets assume they ALL hit, with TL it could happen, its unlikely but lets assume a relatively good scenario for eldars.
these 36 hits boil down to 6 glancing hits, with his 5++ invul the full army of a very cheesy strong list can barely, barely (requires luck) kill 1 soulgrinder per turn.

what happens when his wave serpents start dying? 2 turn to kill one soulgrinder!?

not very efficient if you ask me.

5 soulgrinders would give serpent spam a great challenge.

what else do eldars have? jetbikes? they cant touch the soulgrinders. Bright lances, sure their ok but they dont ignore cover, I could have a 2+cover save with proper positionning against them. Wraithknights? yeah they could do ok too, but the soulgrinders still get cover saves against them and will harm them quite well if they get in close combat with their Str10, and the phlegm bombardment and poison attacks in this list could do a number on them too.

lets say I think it could handle just about anything eldar can throw at them.

am I missing something?

you guys are just saying its not gonna do good with nothing to back up the statement.

surely im missing something, please enlighten me dakkanaught.

Yes, your durability is outstanding. However, you don't have enough damage output to take objectives. This puts you in an inflexible tactical situation because you're screwed if one of your home objectives gets taken.

You are also assuming that the Eldar don't have Fire dragons in WS, most tourny lists I see have at least 2 squads of them these days.


Also, Wraithknights. You can guarantee there are at least 2 of those, and they can wipe the soulgrinders in both shooting and CC

I didnt consider the firedragons, that is true, but the opponent needs to get close to do this which is risky, and they cost more thus less serpents, sure it could work but its not that easy with the low range of their fusion gun and that you cant disembark unless you moved 6" or less, if you wan to melta then you have to be within 18inches before you start your turn, its not that hard to make that difficult for the opponent to do. And even then a single team of firedragon wont be able to kill a soulgrinder even if they do find themselves within melta range. normaly a firedragon team is 5 strong right? so considering hitting, armor pen & invul (potentially a better cover save) you wont, normally, get more then 2 that will go through, this has a semi decent chance of getting to destroy it but not that likely, the fire dragons then die and most likely the wave serpent that carried them too. There are 5 Soulgrinders to deal with, normal list will bring 2 of these teams right? even with the waveserpents on the side i think this list can deal.

now the wraithknights, I did talk about it before but I can go more in detail, I certainly hope it can outshoot the Soulgrinder. the Wraithknights guns prime target is really big guys, the soulgrinders guns main target is everything, except for really big guys. but I gotta say crunching numbers again, as long as the soulgrinder has some cover then its not even that true.

This lists anti big guys is close combat with a side of spells and phlegm to help soften them up.

and yes the WKnight fight better, not that much though, Wraith knight has higher Ws and Ini but is lacking an invul and can fail to "wound" on "1"s&"2s" instead of just "1"s. Hitting first is nice though so we will agree its slightly better in close combat one on one.
The thing is, its 33% more expensive too so its normal that hes stronger, and he isnt gonna have 5 wraithknights to fight my 5 soulgrinders, 3 Soulgrinders can destroy 2 Wknight in close combat even if one of them has a 5++.

Now I do agree that this list could use more mobility/board control, what would you recommend? maybe taking out a GUO and exchanging the warp gazes for balefull torents to get 6 more teams of nurglings? that would make the board pretty surrounded by up to 10 tough OS units deepstriking where they are needed. this doesnt give me speed but it does give me board control. that would be pretty good.
maybe just take 2 more teams of nurglings and take a sixth Soulgrinder hehehe

I suppose exchanging the nurgle theme and going for a Tzeetch, with fateweaver could be very good too, it would give more mobility with FMC but Im just not into Tzeetch.

I think you are looking at this backward from an eldar perspective. The wave serpents are killing your GUO's first not your soul grinders. The Wraithknights are advancing on you and killing your soulgrinders in CC if shooting fails. You aren't really killing many waveserpents as a 3+ jink is tough as hell to get through. And lets not forget that you have no chance of stopping the eldar from taking whatever objectives they want when they want to.

The av13 necron list seems like it would cut through you like butter as you don't have much that can go toe-to-toe with Catacomb command barges and anything that left cover would quickly be succumb to mass tesla and gauss fire.

Also, other demons. If its not a killpoint mission, I don't see your list having much threat to offer a list that can kick out 20-30 dice before the roll and send invisible screamers into your soul grinders.

And finally, the elephant in the room that everyone has been avoiding. Imperial Knights would absolutely wreck this list. Not much from shooting but in CC, its a short, one-sided fight.

Drop pod marines too. The drop pods can contest objectives on the back court and unleash meltaguns or flamers on you SG/nurglings not to mention most marines have some stern guard with poison shots in them. Maybe you play in highly covered tables, I don't see where you're getting this 2+ cover for all these soul grinders. They are actually a big model footprint wise. Soul grinders will probably be in every competitive daemon list, but they have counters.

Eldar are frustrating bc they literally have,an answer for everything and move way faster than most armies

This , like most 40k armies may wreck some games, but it will get wrecked as many times by the opponent. I think it would be fun to play

I do appreciate the feedback although I would particularly appreciate some solution to proposed difficulties as well, what do deamons normally use against said imperial/wraith Knights or waveserpents / drop pod lists?

the covers saves have always been proposed as "maybe I'll get a better save than my Invul", normally not considered at all when given some actual proposed scenario.

Daemonettes chew through wraith knights and big units of screamers (perferably invisible or Grimoired + cursed earth) can handle knights to a degree. Wave serpents are tough, but we have a # of units that can tear them up IF we can get to them, usually via invisibility, massed summons etc. As for Drop Marines, castle up in a corner to deny them easy targets for the alpha strike and then rip into them. Best way to get rid of the drop pods is MCs, CC soul grinders, and screamers.

Be'Lakor helps with everyone of these and isnt to shabby at taking out Imperial Knights as well.

Well FMC used to be the answer but with the buffs to vehicles it's a much harder nut to crack. Be'lakor is a good answer in my opinion. He has access to all of telepathy, is a mastery Lvl 3 physker and has a super good melee weapon. His sword has armorbane and fleshbane. Amorbane is why I bring him up, s7 armorbane will ruin a landraider or even an imperial knight and his initiative will let him destroy it unharmed. Also his model is super small so very easy to hide out of LOS.

ok so heres a different direction, chaos ally for more speed and shooting, keeping only the base of using soulgrinders and nurgling.

350 1x Belakor

45 3x Nurgling
45 3x Nurgling
60 4x Nurgling
60 4x Nurgling

180 1x Soulgrinder / Nurgle/ Phlegm Bombardment
170 1x Soulgrinder / Tzeetch / Phlegm Bombardment

265 1x Deamon Prince / Nurgle / Wings / Power Armor / Black Mace

50 10x Cultist
50 10x Cultist

170 1x Heldrake

125 1x Maulerfiend
140 1x Predator / TL Lascannon / 2x / Lascannon sponson
140 1x Predator / TL Lascannon / 2x / Lascannon sponson

1850pts total


With 2 predators I have much better shooting, Belakor and the Prince are good mobile threats, so are the maulerfiend and heldrake (maulerfiend can help deal with Knights) if they reach them. 6 scoring units 4 of which deepstrike where they are needed. and 2 Soulgrinders for bombarding and assaulting.

is this stronger, I feel it is more tacticaly viable

I personally like your first list better.

That list would crush me, but maybe that's because I play thousand sons with no daemon allies.

My ability to kill T7+ models and enemy armor is pretty poo

well tzeentch isnt exactly particularly viable I heard, the models are just too expensive for what they do, they got a bit better in 7th with the psyker phase but still arent too strong I think.

my first list would do very well against many lists but fail against other due to lack of flexibility, shooting and mobility, the second list has a lot more of the mobility and shooting as well as some better counters for the big threats in competitive environments (Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, Waveserpents, Riptides and quick objective holders like jetbikes.)