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I was reading their lexicanum page and it says that their founding chapter is unknown? How could that possibly be? How could we, the readers of the story, be left with "it's a mystery"? Lexicanum did however say that there were conflicting reports. So maybe you guys could help elaborate. Are there any hints? Exactly what literature is there on the Badab War, anyways?

Well back when they where founded someone in the minister misfiled the document that lists their founding chapter, and thus the information is lost.


I say that jesting but there could be some truth to it. anyone whose worked in an office knows how hard it can be, even in a small office, to find information if it's been misfiled due to an error. I can only imagine how much information the IoM has lost due to misfiling.


On a more serious note, an aweful lot of chapters founders aren't known. apparently this information eaither does get lost, or the IoM occasionally withholds it on purpose. perhaps to reduce the influance of the first founding chapters?

Lots of successor chapters have unknown founding. The Astral Claws are believed to be part of the tenth founding, which was 5000 years before M41. Given all the strife and civil wars the Imperium has experienced in that vast gulf of time, I find it plausible that very basic information might be lost.

BrianDavion wrote:
Well back when they where founded someone in the minister misfiled the document that lists their founding chapter, and thus the information is lost.


I say that jesting but there could be some truth to it. anyone whose worked in an office knows how hard it can be, even in a small office, to find information if it's been misfiled due to an error. I can only imagine how much information the IoM has lost due to misfiling.


On a more serious note, an aweful lot of chapters founders aren't known. apparently this information eaither does get lost, or the IoM occasionally withholds it on purpose. perhaps to reduce the influance of the first founding chapters?

There is mostly likely some truth to it. In today's offices, it's already hard enough. It would certainly be even worse in the Administratum, which is already notoriously inefficient and unwieldy.

 Quarterdime wrote:
I was reading their lexicanum page and it says that their founding chapter is unknown? How could that possibly be? How could we, the readers of the story, be left with "it's a mystery"? Lexicanum did however say that there were conflicting reports. So maybe you guys could help elaborate. Are there any hints? Exactly what literature is there on the Badab War, anyways?

There are many gaps in the 40K storyline where the reader/player is not told anything about a given subject. The history and origins of many Chapters are examples of such gaps.

IMO, they're a descended from the Ultramarines. They kind of show how that whole Ultramarine ideal can get corrupted and turned on its head. Also you can eliminate several founders. It's definitely not the Salamanders or Raven Guard because they don't look like either group. They can't be Blood Angles because they don't suffer from their curse. The Dark Angles are in cahoots with their later foundlings and would have hunted them all down after they turned traitor. The Space Wolves have yet to have a successful successor. So that leaves us with Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands, and Ultramarines. The White Scars and Iron hands seem unlikely because the Astral Claws didn't share their specific themes. So that leaves the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
IMO, they're a descended from the Ultramarines. They kind of show how that whole Ultramarine ideal can get corrupted and turned on its head. Also you can eliminate several founders. It's definitely not the Salamanders or Raven Guard because they don't look like either group. They can't be Blood Angles because they don't suffer from their curse. The Dark Angles are in cahoots with their later foundlings and would have hunted them all down after they turned traitor. The Space Wolves have yet to have a successful successor. So that leaves us with Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands, and Ultramarines. The White Scars and Iron hands seem unlikely because the Astral Claws didn't share their specific themes. So that leaves the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines.

just because they don't share those themes isn't proof, I suspect a lot of sucessor chapters lack much connection to their home chapter.

that said I've always assumed the Ultramarines as well. your viewpoints on them almost being a dark reflection of em is an intreasting one I never thought of. that said I tend to assume ultramarines in the case of most chapters with an unknown proginator. statisticly speaking it's the most likely right answer

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
The White Scars and Iron hands seem unlikely because the Astral Claws didn't share their specific themes.

Imperial Armour 9 page 187:
The Astral Claws had a long tradition of highly adept biker units in their battle companies stretching back for millenia before Huron's rise to power.

This isn't just hyperbole because the FW Chapter Tactics pdf gives Astral Claws bikers Skilled Rider.

So they do share something of the White Scars theme, even if it's more subtle than the YO DAWG I HEAR YOU LIKE [X] WITH YOUR [X] presentation you'd get from the core GW studio.

 Gashrog wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
The White Scars and Iron hands seem unlikely because the Astral Claws didn't share their specific themes.

Imperial Armour 9 page 187:
The Astral Claws had a long tradition of highly adept biker units in their battle companies stretching back for millenia before Huron's rise to power.

This isn't just hyperbole because the FW Chapter Tactics pdf gives Astral Claws bikers Skilled Rider.

So they do share something of the White Scars theme, even if it's more subtle than the YO DAWG I HEAR YOU LIKE [X] WITH YOUR [X] presentation you'd get from the core GW studio.

Interesting. I'm going to go with White Scars, then. At least until someone puts forward something better.

Apologies, I've never gotten my hands on the forge world stuff. Given that fact, it certainly does seem more likely that they could be related to the White Scars. So now we're looking at them being White Scars, Ultramarines, or Imperial Fists. Personally I still think they fit with the corrupted Ultramarine ideal, but their bike aptitude does put serious weight behind the White Scars. I really have nothing for or against the Imperial Fists so they're still included.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
The White Scars and Iron hands seem unlikely because the Astral Claws didn't share their specific themes.

Imperial Armour 9 page 187:
The Astral Claws had a long tradition of highly adept biker units in their battle companies stretching back for millenia before Huron's rise to power.

This isn't just hyperbole because the FW Chapter Tactics pdf gives Astral Claws bikers Skilled Rider.

So they do share something of the White Scars theme, even if it's more subtle than the YO DAWG I HEAR YOU LIKE [X] WITH YOUR [X] presentation you'd get from the core GW studio.

Interesting. I'm going to go with White Scars, then. At least until someone puts forward something better.

On the Lexicanum page, I do find that the Astral Claws have a few relic lightning claws. Also, the word Claw is in the name. I believe Raven Guard commanders like Lightning Claws.

SirSertile wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
The White Scars and Iron hands seem unlikely because the Astral Claws didn't share their specific themes.

Imperial Armour 9 page 187:
The Astral Claws had a long tradition of highly adept biker units in their battle companies stretching back for millenia before Huron's rise to power.

This isn't just hyperbole because the FW Chapter Tactics pdf gives Astral Claws bikers Skilled Rider.

So they do share something of the White Scars theme, even if it's more subtle than the YO DAWG I HEAR YOU LIKE [X] WITH YOUR [X] presentation you'd get from the core GW studio.

Interesting. I'm going to go with White Scars, then. At least until someone puts forward something better.

On the Lexicanum page, I do find that the Astral Claws have a few relic lightning claws. Also, the word Claw is in the name. I believe Raven Guard commanders like Lightning Claws.

I know you're making fun of how flimsy the evidence for White Scars is, but we're not pretending it isn't so take it easy ok?

Sorry, I didn't really want to come off like that- but I just think that the Astral Claws are probably related to one of either White Scars or Raven Guard.

In the future, all Space Marines are Ultramarines. Well, to the tune of two-thirds of them. So if it's unknown, it seems to be the safest default. Literally, out of 1000 chapters, at least 667 of them are Ultramarines successors.


Forgeworld, however, loves it some special snowflake. Like 2/3rds of the Chapters they use are mysteriousssss.

Heck, they even took the Fire Hawks, who were confirmed Ultramarines successors, and retconned them to be mysterioussssss.

SirSertile wrote:
Sorry, I didn't really want to come off like that- but I just think that the Astral Claws are probably related to one of either White Scars or Raven Guard.

The White Scars would work the better of the two- semi-indifference towards authority, with a plan to o on a major crusade/hunt to try to clear out the Maelstrom rather than sit on the defense...sounds a lot like a grandson of the Khan.

SirSertile wrote:
Sorry, I didn't really want to come off like that- but I just think that the Astral Claws are probably related to one of either White Scars or Raven Guard.

Corax's gene see usually causes the marines to look really pale and like something straight out of Edgar Allen Poe. But there's no right answer here so if that works for you, there's no reason it can't be your head cannon

Agreed. Raven Guard, Salamander, Space Wolf, Blood Angel and Imperial Fist gene-seed would be instantly identifiable:

Raven Guard and Salamanders have the whole melanchroma mutation.

Space wolves can't have successors due to the Canis Helix not working with non-fenrisians, which is why the Wolf Brothers all died in a quietly hushed up orgy of lethal mutations.

Blood Angels suffer from the Black Rage and the Red Thirst. Even if others don't know it, they would themselves (and hence the third-party omniscient narrator of Badab war would).

Imperial Fists have an identifiable if not major mutation - loss of sus-an membrane and betcher's gland. It has no in-game effects, but it means that Dorn's sons are easily identifiable.

It's not known. But realistically, the four it can be are Iron Hands, White Scars, Dark Angels and Ultramarines.

The odds are ultramarines - some 66% of chapters use Gulliman's Gene-seed, especially the ones which have been founded from gene-stock reserves rather than split off from existing chapters.

That said, if I remember right, Badab war does include some theorising that they are Dark Angels gene-seed based.

There's no way to know; yes, the Dark Angels maintain covert control of all their successor chapters, but that assumes they are aware; if a chapter was founded with gene-seed from the vaults on mars, there's no rule that the adeptus terra has to contact the donating chapter. Whilst the Dark Angels control their second founding chapters, and the one that they specifically asked to be founded, there could be any number of third-plus founding chapters who don't know they share a bloodline with the fallen.

Which could lead to an...interesting situation.

locarno24 wrote:
Agreed. Raven Guard, Salamander, Space Wolf, Blood Angel and Imperial Fist gene-seed would be instantly identifiable:
That said, if I remember right, Badab war does include some theorising that they are Dark Angels gene-seed based.

Is that a book?

Imperial Armour: Badab 1 part 1.

It's just throwaway speculation in the background.

locarno24 wrote:

The odds are ultramarines - some 66% of chapters use Gulliman's Gene-seed, especially the ones which have been founded from gene-stock reserves rather than split off from existing chapters.

That said, if I remember right, Badab war does include some theorising that they are Dark Angels gene-seed based.

There's no way to know; yes, the Dark Angels maintain covert control of all their successor chapters, but that assumes they are aware; if a chapter was founded with gene-seed from the vaults on mars, there's no rule that the adeptus terra has to contact the donating chapter. Whilst the Dark Angels control their second founding chapters, and the one that they specifically asked to be founded, there could be any number of third-plus founding chapters who don't know they share a bloodline with the fallen.

Which could lead to an...interesting situation.

Gotta go with Occam's razor on this one. For me, they're Ultramarine geneseed, which I don't see as a bad thing like some people. All it means is they're defined by their home world and their history rather than their bloodline, just like most later founding chapters. Not every mystery has to have an exciting answer. Just look at the Carcharodons. As of HH 3: Extermination, it's pretty much irrefutable that they're Raven Guard.

I always thought they were descended from Dark Angels to be honest, the Lion motifs and the fluff about skilled riders always seemed to scream sons of the Lion to me.

Motifs can be reused for different purposes. If that weren't true, the Black and White Consuls would be Raven Guard, or the Fire Angels would most likely be Imperial Fists, or the Iron Knights would be Iron Hands.
While it may be true that successors can share similar symbols with their progenitors, I don't feel it's a strong enough connection to stand on its own as evidence.

The Astral Claws and the Badab War in general are old campaign ideas. Basiclly the Badab War, especially at its climax, is like a re-enactment of the Siege of Terra with the sides flipped a bit.

Lamenters take the place of the Blood Angels, whom they are decended from..

Mantis Warriors take the place of the White Scars, whom they are decended from.

Astral Claws take the place of the Imperial Fists, whom I believe they are decended from.

That's my take on it.

 Zakiriel wrote:
The Astral Claws and the Badab War in general are old campaign ideas. Basiclly the Badab War, especially at its climax, is like a re-enactment of the Siege of Terra with the sides flipped a bit.

Lamenters take the place of the Blood Angels, whom they are decended from..

Mantis Warriors take the place of the White Scars, whom they are decended from.

Astral Claws take the place of the Imperial Fists, whom I believe they are decended from.

That's my take on it.

And now we wait until a novel shows a Red Corsair using his sus-an membrane.

Aren't the Executioners derived from the Fists?

 Zakiriel wrote:
The Astral Claws and the Badab War in general are old campaign ideas. Basiclly the Badab War, especially at its climax, is like a re-enactment of the Siege of Terra with the sides flipped a bit.

Lamenters take the place of the Blood Angels, whom they are decended from..

Mantis Warriors take the place of the White Scars, whom they are decended from.

Astral Claws take the place of the Imperial Fists, whom I believe they are decended from.

That's my take on it.

I really don't see it, for starters the Blood Angels didn't surrender to Horus and beg forgiveness years before the Siege of Terra..

Not to mention the Badab War story predates that of the Siege of Terra.

Not to mention the Badab War story predates that of the Siege of Terra.

What? Or do you mean the real-world stories about these fictional events?

 Psienesis wrote:

Not to mention the Badab War story predates that of the Siege of Terra.

What? Or do you mean the real-world stories about these fictional events?

Real-world. The Badab War was the second war (after Rynn's World) to get any details, the specifics of which haven't changed that much.