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Tesla may be better than other weapons while snap firing, but anyone who argues that telsa is better snap firing than normal shooting lacks a basic understanding of math, or is a non necron player just blowing smoke hoping for a nerf.

Normal Fire
1-2 miss 33% chance
3-5 1 hit 49% chance
6 3 hits 16% chance

Snap Fire
1-5 miss 84% chance
6. 3 hits 16% chance

I'm hoping for something ridiculously stupid. Like a full on Egyptian Chariot pulled by robo-horses.

And a Sphinx monstrous creature.

I am entertained at this point to see just how far the rabbit hole for awful goes in the GW design lab after the Logan Chariot and the flying clown shoe.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I am entertained at this point to see just how far the rabbit hole for awful goes in the GW design lab after the Logan Chariot and the flying clown shoe.

I've seen Logan and his Hogfather sleigh, but what's the 'flying clown shoe'?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I am entertained at this point to see just how far the rabbit hole for awful goes in the GW design lab after the Logan Chariot and the flying clown shoe.

Please don't tempt them...

 vipoid wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I am entertained at this point to see just how far the rabbit hole for awful goes in the GW design lab after the Logan Chariot and the flying clown shoe.

I've seen Logan and his Hogfather sleigh, but what's the 'flying clown shoe'?

The longboat.

 adamsouza wrote:
Tesla may be better than other weapons while snap firing, but anyone who argues that telsa is better snap firing than normal shooting lacks a basic understanding of math, or is a non necron player just blowing smoke hoping for a nerf.

Normal Fire
1-2 miss 33% chance
3-5 1 hit 49% chance
6 3 hits 16% chance

Snap Fire
1-5 miss 84% chance
6. 3 hits 16% chance

The problem is, the anti-Telsa crowd is not actually specifically mentioning the twin-linked aspect of the Tesla Destructor on Necron vehicles (which is the real pain point, make no mistake), while the pro-Tesla crowd is acting like TL doesn't play into it at all. What fuels the no loss of efficiency theory is that with snap shots and TL, you are re-rolling anything that is not a 6, thus increasing your odds of getting those extra Tesla hits, while non-snap shots only reroll 1s and 2s. Non-Snap Fire, you are typically rolling 5 dice total, so you have 5 chances to roll a 6, but you gain single hits with no mathematical guarantee you will roll a 6. Snap Fire, you are effectively rolling 8 dice, mathematically guaranteeing a single 6 (thus 3 hits) but you lose those single hits. So on average, you are only losing a single hit when snap firing. Of course, with sample sizes as small as your average 40K game dice amount, mathematical guarantees aren't all that reliable, but it is what it is.

I've done the calculations:
Tesla Destructor: 5.3 hits || Snap-shot: 3.6 hits
TL-Assault Cannon: 3.6 hits || Snap-shot: 1.24
So a Tesla Destructor snap-shots at 68% efficiency, while a TL-AC shoots at 34% efficiency.

But to put this in context:
My Blood Angels can get a fast Razorback with TL-AC for 55 points.
A fast Baal Predator is around 115 points.
Both can move 12" and have 3.6 hits.
My Necron Ann. Barge can also move 12" and gain 3.6 hits, while his armour is 'around' the same as a Baal Predator.

I see the Ann. Barge as the following: A slightly undercosted "fast" skimmer that has a secondary role as anti-air.
It's also open-topped and has AV11 if you penetrate it once.
All of this would be perfectly fine for 115 points, the main issue is that you get it for 90.

They could remove the extra hits on snapshots and make it a fast Skimmer, but that would increase the power against non-Flyers.
Or they could remove the extra hits and remain at 90 points, which would nerf it against Flyers and wouldn't make a difference against the rest. It would also require a new unit to be made as a anti-air.
Most suggested "nerfs" I read around here are either too much or hardly do anything at all.
That's because the Ann. Barge is a unit where you have to consider all of its rules and uses, you can't look at a single aspect and try to balance that on its own.

Tesla not working for snapshots.

Mindshackle Scarabs to be gone.

Deathmarks fixed so their rule doesnt convey to models that join the unit.

And then make the other units in the book that no one uses actually viable.

AlexRae wrote:
Tesla not working for snapshots.

Mindshackle Scarabs to be gone.

Deathmarks fixed so their rule doesnt convey to models that join the unit.

And then make the other units in the book that no one uses actually viable.

1. I don't necessarily agree, but I could see it happening.

2. I disagree. It just needs to be changed to actually not be wonky. And if they do remove it, make Overlords better in CC. MSS are there to compensate for being pretty much terrible in CC.

3. I agree. I never used Crypteks with them because I thought it was stupid gameplay and fluff-wise.

4. Super agree.

 krodarklorr wrote:
2. I disagree. It just needs to be changed to actually not be wonky. And if they do remove it, make Overlords better in CC. MSS are there to compensate for being pretty much terrible in CC.

I didn't know codices needed a way to compensate for an army's built-in weakness.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I didn't know codices needed a way to compensate for an army's built-in weakness.

Why not?
Orks have stuff to make their Leadership go from terrible to bad.
Tau have things that makes their terrible weakness to melee only 'bad'.
Why can't Necron have a 100+ model that makes their melee go from terrible to bad?
Because that is the entire point of Lords in the first place: You will still lose in close combat, but at least the opponent feels some pain.

MSS might be removed, but a lot of people seem to forget that IF it gets removed it will probably be replaced by something stronger and more consistent.
9 out of 10 times my MSS only mindcontrols a single Assault Marine, but that is because my opponents actually understand the rules of this game.

Kangodo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I didn't know codices needed a way to compensate for an army's built-in weakness.

Why not?
Orks have stuff to make their Leadership go from terrible to bad.
Tau have things that makes their terrible weakness to melee only 'bad'.
Why can't Necron have a 100+ model that makes their melee go from terrible to bad?
Because that is the entire point of Lords in the first place: You will still lose in close combat, but at least the opponent feels some pain.

MSS might be removed, but a lot of people seem to forget that IF it gets removed it will probably be replaced by something stronger and more consistent.
9 out of 10 times my MSS only mindcontrols a single Assault Marine, but that is because my opponents actually understand the rules of this game.

This guy has it down.

Tyranids have gakky armor saves, so have shrouded that can be passed out. And gakky LD, therefor, Synapse.
Tau have Markerlights, which makes their mediocre BS turn to amazing.
Eldar have........they're T3? Not many weaknesses there.

Either way, our Overlord is 90 points with a 3 shot shooting attack, and mediocre combat stats. So either he gets cheaper, better, or they keep MSS. You cant straight up get rid of something and nerf a unit without balancing it out first.

I'm going to guess that MSS becomes an artifact.

I'm really not expecting huge sweeping changes.

I just hope we don't get the GK treatment.

Necrons do have means to compensate for their poor melee ability. They're called Lychguard, C'tan Shards, Flayed Ones, and Triarch Praetorians.

People just don't want to take them, because they're not as good as other factions' melee units (despite the shard beating just about any MC in the game in close combat). They want to take the same units that they think will win, only made better.

 krodarklorr wrote:
This guy has it down.

Tyranids have gakky armor saves, so have shrouded that can be passed out. And gakky LD, therefor, Synapse.
Tau have Markerlights, which makes their mediocre BS turn to amazing.
Eldar have........they're T3? Not many weaknesses there.

Either way, our Overlord is 90 points with a 3 shot shooting attack, and mediocre combat stats. So either he gets cheaper, better, or they keep MSS. You cant straight up get rid of something and nerf a unit without balancing it out first.

Semi-correct.
Tyranids are really cheap. Tau have Supporting Fire and their Warriors are terribly cheap.
They die very easily, but it doesn't matter since they are so cheap.
Necrons die really fast in melee, but are almost at Marine-prices.

Our Overlord has no shooting at all, since you might as well not take them at all if you aren't taking Warscythes.
MSS will probably stay the same but perhaps a "on the charge" restriction, which hardly changes anything but at least shuts people up. And maybe a reduction in cost, just like nearly every other option.

Alcibiades wrote:
Necrons do have means to compensate for their poor melee ability. They're called Lychguard, C'tan Shards, Flayed Ones, and Triarch Praetorians.
People just don't want to take them, because they're not as good as other factions' melee units (despite the shard beating just about any MC in the game in close combat). They want to take the same units that they think will win, only made better.

Yes, you are 100% right.
It has nothing to do with the fact that you just named the four worst units in our entire codex, except perhaps for the Doomsday Ark that needs a place between them.
The Shard beating just about any MC in the game? You have got to be kidding me.

Alcibiades wrote:
Necrons do have means to compensate for their poor melee ability. They're called Lychguard, C'tan Shards, Flayed Ones, and Triarch Praetorians.

How are any of those compensating?

That's like tyranids compensating for poor shooting by having access to spike rifles.

Kangodo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
This guy has it down.

Tyranids have gakky armor saves, so have shrouded that can be passed out. And gakky LD, therefor, Synapse.
Tau have Markerlights, which makes their mediocre BS turn to amazing.
Eldar have........they're T3? Not many weaknesses there.

Either way, our Overlord is 90 points with a 3 shot shooting attack, and mediocre combat stats. So either he gets cheaper, better, or they keep MSS. You cant straight up get rid of something and nerf a unit without balancing it out first.

Semi-correct.
Tyranids are really cheap. Tau have Supporting Fire and their Warriors are terribly cheap.
They die very easily, but it doesn't matter since they are so cheap.
Necrons die really fast in melee, but are almost at Marine-prices.

Our Overlord has no shooting at all, since you might as well not take them at all if you aren't taking Warscythes.
MSS will probably stay the same but perhaps a "on the charge" restriction, which hardly changes anything but at least shuts people up. And maybe a reduction in cost, just like nearly every other option.

Alcibiades wrote:
Necrons do have means to compensate for their poor melee ability. They're called Lychguard, C'tan Shards, Flayed Ones, and Triarch Praetorians.
People just don't want to take them, because they're not as good as other factions' melee units (despite the shard beating just about any MC in the game in close combat). They want to take the same units that they think will win, only made better.

Yes, you are 100% right.
It has nothing to do with the fact that you just named the four worst units in our entire codex, except perhaps for the Doomsday Ark that needs a place between them.
The Shard beating just about any MC in the game? You have got to be kidding me.

It was a broad statement. I'm trying to say that a lot of codexes with cheap units have ways of compensating for certain things. Like, Tau having supporting fire to kill stuff BEFORE it gets into melee.

And yeah, I agree that Necrons die incredibly easily in melee and have little defense against it. As I've said in previous posts, Stubborn would do them well. Don't even have to change anything else. Maybe a point more expensive, but Stubborn is a widely underused rule IMHO.

And to clarify, I'm actually willing to bet that the C'Tan Shard annihilates most MCs and even named melee Characters, like Swarmlord or Abbadon in melee. The only issues, and why people don't take him, is the fact that he costs an arm and a leg and has gakky saves against massed fire, and can't GET anywhere before dying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Necrons do have means to compensate for their poor melee ability. They're called Lychguard, C'tan Shards, Flayed Ones, and Triarch Praetorians.

How are any of those compensating?

That's like tyranids compensating for poor shooting by having access to spike rifles.

Oh gawd, my sides. That was clever.

But no, Lychguard are terribly expensive for not a whole lot of power. Flayed ones outright suck, and Praetorians are worse than Lychguard, for the same lovely cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:
I'm going to guess that MSS becomes an artifact.

I just hope we don't get the GK treatment.

1. I could see it happening.

2. Me too. I want some new kits at least, and maybe at least one new model. To keep with the whole "big, bad" feeling a lot of codexes have with their new units.

But what kind of unit would you like to see? I think I would like to see something of a walker.
The 'Necron Dread Knight' was always one of my favourite conversions: http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/2/8/9/0/9/2/webimg/645640224_tp.jpg

A big 'real' walker is probably the only type of model we lack.
Or wow, could you imagine us getting an Imperial Knight-sized walker?
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x533q90/844/5c0q.jpg
My wallet hopes we won't receive such a thing.

Surely we'll also get a few small things, my hopes are on a special 'build-a-cryptek' package and melee-based support.
One of my irks are stuff like: No Jump/Deep Strike/Infiltrate Lord except for the D-Lord.
Because I played the Court of the Flayed one and that actually made Flayed Ones quite good.
And I'd like to see Spyders being able to join and move with Scarabs.

Relics are also quite interesting.
The one thing I am nearly sure of is a Resurrection Orb with a X" range instead of only applying to a unit.

Kangodo wrote:
But what kind of unit would you like to see? I think I would like to see something of a walker.
The 'Necron Dread Knight' was always one of my favourite conversions: http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/2/8/9/0/9/2/webimg/645640224_tp.jpg

A big 'real' walker is probably the only type of model we lack.
Or wow, could you imagine us getting an Imperial Knight-sized walker?
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x533q90/844/5c0q.jpg
My wallet hopes we won't receive such a thing.

Surely we'll also get a few small things, my hopes are on a special 'build-a-cryptek' package and melee-based support.
One of my irks are stuff like: No Jump/Deep Strike/Infiltrate Lord except for the D-Lord.
Because I played the Court of the Flayed one and that actually made Flayed Ones quite good.
And I'd like to see Spyders being able to join and move with Scarabs.

Relics are also quite interesting.
The one thing I am nearly sure of is a Resurrection Orb with a X" range instead of only applying to a unit.

I liked the idea of a Necron Battle-suit type thing, similar to the Dreadknight. And he can be kitted out with two weapons, and you get to choose between his own version of Tesla. Gauss, or Particle weapons to use. But if we don't get that, I'll be happy if they make the C'Tan Shard good. I have both models fully painted and ready use, but no motivation to use them.

Also, my ideas of Relics that I expect to see are: Relic Res Orb. Like you said, probably a range around him, or maybe res on a 3+? A Relic Staff of Light. Maybe an extra shot, and is also a power weapon in close combat (Like it freakin used to be). A Relic Warscythe. Maybe an extra +1 S and Shred, or something of the like. Maybe To Wound rolls of 6 ignore all saves. Wouldn't happen, but nice to think about.

That 3+ RP would be quite overpowered with the Necron Tomb Citadel, which would give them a 95% chance to get back up

For some reasons I always tend to think their Relics would be more buffs than personal weapons since it's really hard to beat a Warscythe.
Maybe something to give the Character and his unit an additional 6" range?
My first idea was a Relic Veil of Darkness, but then I remembered Obyron already had it.
And we have so many unique items on our Crypteks, it's really hard to come up with something unique!

Kangodo wrote:
That 3+ RP would be quite overpowered with the Necron Tomb Citadel, which would give them a 95% chance to get back up

For some reasons I always tend to think their Relics would be more buffs than personal weapons since it's really hard to beat a Warscythe.
Maybe something to give the Character and his unit an additional 6" range?
My first idea was a Relic Veil of Darkness, but then I remembered Obyron already had it.
And we have so many unique items on our Crypteks, it's really hard to come up with something unique!

Yeah, many good points there. Maybe the relic Res Orb gave the unit FNP? Or the bearer IWND? I dunno, it's hard to think of something that wouldn't be OP as gak.

Please no! Trust me, I played with the Apoc-Flayed Ones Court.
Sv4+ ánd FNP ánd a 4+ RP is really overpowered.
If there is one thing you don't want, it would be giving FNP to Necrons to go with their RP.

In my opinion the best and most balanced would be to give units within 6" the benefit of the Orb, so you could take 3 units of Warriors and have them all stand up on a 4+.

Kangodo wrote:
Please no! Trust me, I played with the Apoc-Flayed Ones Court.
Sv4+ ánd FNP ánd a 4+ RP is really overpowered.
If there is one thing you don't want, it would be giving FNP to Necrons to go with their RP.

In my opinion the best and most balanced would be to give units within 6" the benefit of the Orb, so you could take 3 units of Warriors and have them all stand up on a 4+.

I suppose. I just see that costing a pretty penny, and would probably just stick to regular Res Orbs if that were the case.

... C'tan? Beast in combat?

My Ahriman beats up C'tan in close combat. Frequently.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... C'tan? Beast in combat?

My Ahriman beats up C'tan in close combat. Frequently.

Umm, I'm not even sure how that would happen...

Really? I would rate it at 45 points.
Another nice relic might be a mini-Imothek storm. I've seen it being used in Apoc and that was quite entertaining, while nothing too strong.
One nice idea I had is a weapon with both Tesla and Haywire, having it Assault 2/3 or something.
My last idea would be a Phylactery that returns them with 3 Wounds and lets them re-roll failed EL-rolls.
So you still have a chance to fail and it's only a single-use item.

I think we have some great ideas hidden in Apocalypse-formations and IA12.

Kangodo wrote:
Really? I would rate it at 45 points.
Another nice relic might be a mini-Imothek storm. I've seen it being used in Apoc and that was quite entertaining, while nothing too strong.
One nice idea I had a weapon with both Tesla and Haywire
My last idea would be a Phylactery that returns them with 3 Wounds and lets them re-roll failed EL-rolls.
So you still have a chance to fail and it's only a single-use item.

I think we have some great ideas hidden in Apocalypse-formations and IA12.

I just wish they would make the Phylactery what it is in the Deathwatch rpg. FNP, and IWND. That essentially what it does in fluff.

But yeah, I still think 30 points is a bit much for a res orb, hence why I don't even use Lord anymore. 35 point model and another 30 point upgrade just to give a unit a res orb. A bit expensive to me.

But, I do like your idea for the Phylactery, let you reroll the EL roll one time. Would be pretty sick.

Do you have access to Damnos?
You should really take a look at the Court of the Flayer King and the Royal Court of Damnos.
They have really interesting things that would work extremely well as either SC-rules or relics.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... C'tan? Beast in combat?

My Ahriman beats up C'tan in close combat. Frequently.

Umm, I'm not even sure how that would happen...

Ahriman is WS 5, S6, I5, A4+1 with a Force Weapon (and bolt pistol). Oh, and a 3+/4++ save (Because of course he can't afford a Sigil of Corruption ¬_¬)

I mean, sure, he's not exactly a traditional 'squishy wizard' since he's a Thousand Sons, but still.

C'tan are what... WS 4, S6, Smash, with a 4++?

Kangodo wrote:
Do you have access to Damnos?
You should really take a look at the Court of the Flayer King and the Royal Court of Damnos.
They have really interesting things that would work extremely well as either SC-rules or relics.

Yeah, I have a copy of Damnos. A lot of cool things in there that makes me wanna play Apoc. >.<