Necron's 7th Edition Book. What Are You Hoping For?

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**CthuluIsSpy**

Ghaz wrote:
And where in the 2002 codex did they say that the C'Tan weren't shards? I see nothing to indicate either way.

Necrons were slaves back then. There were not the masters.

So...what do I hope for?

* Pariahs

* Good Flayed Ones

*Good Flayed Ones models

*C'tan that are actually useful

*Better Destroyers (I love them, but even I admit they need another wound to stop them from dying.)

*Better Monolith

* Dolmen gates in the flames of retcon. Seriously, feth those things

*Necron vehicles redesigned so they do not always have a pilot. Or put a cover on that flyer at least; it's indecent to have the necron exposed like that, for all the world to see.

* Useful Lychguard

*Useful any close combat weapon that is not a warscythe or possibly void blade

*A warlord table

* Better anti-cc that is not reliant on Mind Shackle Scarabs. Those things are stupidly powerful...I abuse the hell out of it, but even I admit they need tweaking.

**NecronLord3**

vipoid wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:
Flayed ones are already better now that the outflank and score.

Yeah, ask genestealers how much Outflank helps them this edition.

I said better. As in they went from being totally, completely, utterly worthless to if you have the points to spare they are some what of a use as the opponent has to turn attention to them and kill them. Also they have a better Armour save and res. protocols that gene stealers don't have. Ask Tyranid players if they would like both of those.

**krodarklorr**

NecronLord3 wrote:
vipoid wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:
Flayed ones are already better now that the outflank and score.

Yeah, ask genestealers how much Outflank helps them this edition.

I said better. As in they went from being totally, completely, utterly worthless to if you have the points to spare they are some what of a use as the opponent has to turn attention to them and kill them. Also they have a better Armour save and res. protocols that gene stealers don't have. Ask Tyranid players if they would like both of those.

As a Necron and Tyranid player, I have like, 16 genestealers that I haven't used since my first couple of games with Tyranids. BUT, that being said, I would still take Genestealers over Flayed ones. WS 6, good number of attacks, higher init, and the Broodlord. Flayed ones can't beat it.

**vipoid**

NecronLord3 wrote:

I said better. As in they went from being totally, completely, utterly worthless to if you have the points to spare they are some what of a use as the opponent has to turn attention to them and kill them.

My opponent also sometimes turns his attention to swatting a fly - it doesn't mean I'd want to recruit that fly into my army.

NecronLord3 wrote:
Also they have a better Armour save and res. protocols that gene stealers don't have. Ask Tyranid players if they would like both of those.

Necron Warriors also have a better armour save and RP, with the added bonus of a gun and Objective Secured.

Ask nid players which they'd prefer.

**wuestenfux**

Besides useful Lynch Guard I'd like to see useful Praetorians who are also heavily overpriced.

**krodarklorr**

wuestenfux wrote:
Besides useful Lynch Guard I'd like to see useful Praetorians who are also heavily overpriced.

Or, keep them the same price, but give them a good amount of attacks. Make their weapon unwieldy, make their shooting attack 12", I dunno, something. Anything at all...

**vipoid**

I think Praetorians need quite a bit. As it stands, they lack both damage output and survivability.

Meanwhile, Lychguard have the choice of whether they want to be survivable (ish) and poor in combat, or have poor survivability but a useful CC weapon.

On a related note, is there any point to the Transdimensional Beamer for wraiths?

**wuestenfux**

Since GK Terminators got a pt decrease, we could expect the same for Lynchguard and Praetorians.

**krodarklorr**

wuestenfux wrote:
Since GK Terminators got a pt decrease, we could expect the same for Lynchguard and Praetorians.

I would expect it even if they hadn't given Termies a decrease.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

vipoid wrote:
I think Praetorians need quite a bit. As it stands, they lack both damage output and survivability.

Meanwhile, Lychguard have the choice of whether they want to be survivable (ish) and poor in combat, or have poor survivability but a useful CC weapon.

On a related note, is there any point to the Transdimensional Beamer for wraiths?

1. Why use Praetorians over Wraiths? Exactly. =P

2. Another good point.

3. If they simply made it NOT a heavy weapon, I would run my wraiths WYSIWYG all the time (4 with whip coils, 1 particle caster, 1 Trans beamer)

**Furyou Miko**

Rule of cool, I guess?

**Sigvatr**

Praetorians are only slightly inferior to Wraiths. Point reduction would be okay, but their models are...ugh.

**vipoid**

Sigvatr wrote:
Praetorians are only slightly inferior to Wraiths.

I'm not sure about 'slightly'

Praetorians have a T5 3+ save and RP
Wraiths have a T4 3++ and 2 wounds apiece

Praetorians have 1 S5 AP2 attack (or 2 Rending attacks with Entropic Strike)
Wraiths have 3 S6 Rending attacks

Wraiths are 5pts cheaper.

Oh, and Praetorians have a 6" shooting attack that's custom-designed to take them out of assault range.

**Furyou Miko**

I thought Praetorians were also Unwieldy?

**vipoid**

Furyou Miko wrote:
I thought Praetorians were also Unwieldy?

Entirely possible.

**krodarklorr**

vipoid wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
I thought Praetorians were also Unwieldy?

Entirely possible.

'

Yeah, they are unwieldy

**vipoid**

Which strikes me as odd, considering Warscythes aren't unwieldy.

**IHateNids**

which I'm fully expecting to be one of the changes to come, although I hope not

**krodarklorr**

vipoid wrote:
Which strikes me as odd, considering Warscythes aren't unwieldy.

Yeah, doesn't make sense to me...

**Furyou Miko**

Praetorians were just... badly done all together. Their fluff and concept is awesome, but their game rules... basically amount to 'a power axe with 6" range' after 6th dropped.

My suggestion would have been to give them the old Pariah warscythes, with built-in gauss blasters, and an Invulnerable save (giving the Lychguard a second attack while I was at it).

**vipoid**

IHateNids wrote:
which I'm fully expecting to be one of the changes to come, although I hope not

Considering Necrons are already I2, unwieldy seems a little... redundant. I know that it's not pointless because of power fists and such, but it just seems a bit strange to me. Also, I kinda thought striking before power fists was our reward for striking after everything else.

**krodarklorr**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Praetorians were just... badly done all together. Their fluff and concept is awesome, but their game rules... basically amount to 'a power axe with 6" range' after 6th dropped.

My suggestion would have been to give them the old Pariah warscythes, with built-in gauss blasters, and an Invulnerable save (giving the Lychguard a second attack while I was at it).

Lychguard have 2 attacks already. But yeah, the Pariahs should come back. Sooo many people would use them then.

**krodarklorr**

vipoid wrote:
IHateNids wrote:
which I'm fully expecting to be one of the changes to come, although I hope not

Considering Necrons are already I2, unwieldy seems a little... redundant. I know that it's not pointless because of power fists and such, but it just seems a bit strange to me. Also, I kinda thought striking before power fists was our reward for striking after everything else.

I'm still upset that they made EVERYTHING in the book I2, except for the C'Tan shards. Wraiths should not be I2. I don't care what anyone says.

**Furyou Miko**

Not everything. Tomb Stalkers and Sentinels are still I4.

Wraiths really should be I4-5 as well though. Heck, the Tomb Stalker is supposed to be one of the 'fastest creatures in the universe'.

**Alcibiades**

vipoid wrote:
I think Praetorians need quite a bit. As it stands, they lack both damage output and survivability.

Mathematically anyway, Triarch Praetorians have in most circumstances very similar damage output and survivability to wraiths.

In fact a TP and a wraith with a particle caster perform so creepily identically to each other mathematically I wonder why GW bothered to make 2 different units. Wraiths might as well be TPs with move through cover.

**Furyou Miko**

I fail to see how that works, when the Wraith has higher strength and more attacks, as well as a 3++ invulnerable save, while the Praetorian only has 1 attack at 1 less strength, striking after the Wraith (and the enemy, since the Wraith almost certainly has Whip Coils), and no invulnerable save. Not to mention only 1 wound to the Wraith's two..

**Alcibiades**

Furyou Miko wrote:
I fail to see how that works, when the Wraith has higher strength and more attacks, as well as a 3++ invulnerable save, while the Praetorian only has 1 attack at 1 less strength, striking after the Wraith (and the enemy, since the Wraith almost certainly has Whip Coils), and no invulnerable save. Not to mention only 1 wound to the Wraith's two..

Several reasons.

1. Charging has a greater effect on Triarch Praetorians. I was considering actually one with a void blade + particle caster, but in the case of a rod of covenant, charging doubles its effectivemess, whereas it increases the damage of the wraith by 33%.

2. Triarch Praetorians effectively have 1.5 wounds, due to resurrection protocols, and higher toughness.

I did all the math for this once and they perform very similarly on paper.

**Furyou Miko**

But with a VB+PC, the Praetorian is striking at AP-. His weapons literally have no effect above a regular CCW on 1w models.

I make it that a Praetorian (Void Blade + Particle Caster) kills 0.444 Marines when charging, while a Wraith (whip coils) kills 1.037 marines when charging. That's without working in the fact that the Marine strikes first against the Praetorian and has a chance of killing him.

**krodarklorr**

Yeah, Praetorians can die before even striking, whereas Wraiths have A. A better chance of surviving and B. Have an Invuln. A Praetorian could stand up, sure, after its turn to attack has come and gone, and you have at best a 50% chance of him standing up.

**Alcibiades**

Furyou Miko wrote:
But with a VB+PC, the Praetorian is striking at AP-. His weapons literally have no effect above a regular CCW on 1w models.

I make it that a Praetorian (Void Blade + Particle Caster) kills 0.444 Marines when charging, while a Wraith (whip coils) kills 1.037 marines when charging. That's without working in the fact that the Marine strikes first against the Praetorian and has a chance of killing him.

The wraith is also striking at AP -....

Using the mathhammer 40k website rather than figuring the stuff out myself:

assuming they all get the charge and gets a shot before attacking, a TP with Rod of Covenant will kill:

0.444 marines with his initial shot
0.222 marines with hammer of wrath
0.833 marines in close combat
--------
total 1.499 marines

A marine attacking a wraith will do an average of 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/12, so it takes 24 attacks to kill it given it has 2 wounds.
A marine attacking a TP will do on average 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/18, so it takes 27 attacks given that it has (for most intents and purposes) 1.5 wounds.

Durability is about the same. A marine is extremely unlikely to kill a triarch praetorian before it can strike, assuming he doesn't have a power sword.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
To do a proper comparison, you have to give the wraith EITHER whip coils OR a particle caster, so that it matches the 40 points of the TP.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
IIRC when I did the math before, it turned out that wraiths and TPs are about as resistant to anything that isn't AP3 or better, with the inv. save tipping the advantage to the wraith against higher AP weapons. With some additional complications arising from any weapon strong enough to Instant Death a wraith. In general they are comparable, unless you toss a Res Orb in with the triarchs, in which case they outshine wraiths.

**vipoid**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Not everything. Tomb Stalkers and Sentinels are still I4.

Neither of which are in the book.

Alcibiades wrote:

assuming they all get the charge and gets a shot before attacking

That's a massive 'if' though.

With random charge distance, firing their rods is very risky as it can easily put them out of charge-range - thus leaving them exposed in their opponent's turn and preventing them from inflicting any further wounds in the assault phase.