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 adamsouza wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
We are always last or skipped over.

Back when the codex came out, they had to make an entire line of plastic models to support it.

Necrons got one of the best flyers in the game, back in 5th edition before anyone else, and was the most future proof codex to date. It's stood well in 5th, 6th, and 7th edition.

Honestly, aside from Warlord traits, a formation or two, and maybe a tweak here and there the Necron Codex isn't really in a screaming need of an update.

It's not in need of an update, I know. But, I honestly would really like one. The only decent builds of the book require using a few units and that's it. I want price changes and making more than a few units actually viable.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
We are always last or skipped over.

Back when the codex came out, they had to make an entire line of plastic models to support it.

Necrons got one of the best flyers in the game, back in 5th edition before anyone else, and was the most future proof codex to date. It's stood well in 5th, 6th, and 7th edition.

Honestly, aside from Warlord traits, a formation or two, and maybe a tweak here and there the Necron Codex isn't really in a screaming need of an update.

It's not in need of an update, I know. But, I honestly would really like one. The only decent builds of the book require using a few units and that's it. I want price changes and making more than a few units actually viable.

I think it is funny that you say this about Necrons but in the "How Competitive are Necrons" thread you ask why people think Tyranids suck...

Honestly I expect Necron players to be extremely disappointed when we get a 7th update, if you look at the 7th codices thus far it is all about standardization and removing unique abilities. I would not be surprised to see MSS turn into a relic, Quantum Shielding turn into Stealth, Wraiths go up in points, Night Scythe's turn into AV10 all around, etc.

GW seems to have finally herd the cries of imbalance and decided to play it safe with the updates and make the general power level of the game go down, which I am okay with but at this rate it will be awhile before it is in actual effect.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
We are always last or skipped over.

Back when the codex came out, they had to make an entire line of plastic models to support it.

Necrons got one of the best flyers in the game, back in 5th edition before anyone else, and was the most future proof codex to date. It's stood well in 5th, 6th, and 7th edition.

Honestly, aside from Warlord traits, a formation or two, and maybe a tweak here and there the Necron Codex isn't really in a screaming need of an update.

It's not in need of an update, I know. But, I honestly would really like one. The only decent builds of the book require using a few units and that's it. I want price changes and making more than a few units actually viable.

I think it is funny that you say this about Necrons but in the "How Competitive are Necrons" thread you ask why people think Tyranids suck...

Honestly I expect Necron players to be extremely disappointed when we get a 7th update, if you look at the 7th codices thus far it is all about standardization and removing unique abilities. I would not be surprised to see MSS turn into a relic, Quantum Shielding turn into Stealth, Wraiths go up in points, Night Scythe's turn into AV10 all around, etc.

GW seems to have finally herd the cries of imbalance and decided to play it safe with the updates and make the general power level of the game go down, which I am okay with but at this rate it will be awhile before it is in actual effect.

Umm, because Tyranids don't suck. I've played various types of lists with various units, a lot of which people disregard most of the time, and have done really well. But with Necrons, if I used Destroyers, or Lychguard, or Flayed Ones, I would get my ass beat. They're expensive, and are outdone by most things.

And power level scaling down? Last I heard GK are still pretty stupid, Orks only got better, and so did Space Wolves. The only thing I've noticed is the fact that all the new codexes have really good internal balance, making for more varied lists, or making it harder to have an "auto-include" option. Yeah, they're removing unique abilities, but that's to be expected. It's easier to reference and if GW needs to change something, they change it in the BRB and it changes them across all codexes. Will Necrons lose some unique stuff? Probably. But Dark Eldar didn't lose all that much that we know of yet, and still have some cool, unique wargear. herefor, I have hope for Necrons.

But then, if they do butcher it, I will probably stop playing and this conversation really wouldn't have meant anything anyway.

I am really curious now about possible changes to RP and EL, given the simplification of Power from Pain for Dark Eldar. Now my initial thought of it being turned into a form of FNP suddenly doesn't seem so far fetched.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I am really curious now about possible changes to RP and EL, given the simplification of Power from Pain for Dark Eldar. Now my initial thought of it being turned into a form of FNP suddenly doesn't seem so far fetched.

I hope to god not. It would be ignored by so much, and would nerf the hell out of the entire book.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I am really curious now about possible changes to RP and EL, given the simplification of Power from Pain for Dark Eldar. Now my initial thought of it being turned into a form of FNP suddenly doesn't seem so far fetched.

I hope to god not. It would be ignored by so much, and would nerf the hell out of the entire book.

While its certainly not a popular opinion, I can't help but think the days of RP and EL ignoring ID and removed from game effects are numbered, just judging by the last few codexes.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I am really curious now about possible changes to RP and EL, given the simplification of Power from Pain for Dark Eldar. Now my initial thought of it being turned into a form of FNP suddenly doesn't seem so far fetched.

I hope to god not. It would be ignored by so much, and would nerf the hell out of the entire book.

While its certainly not a popular opinion, I can't help but think the days of RP and EL ignoring ID and removed from game effects are numbered, just judging by the last few codexes.

Probably. Bu if they nerf RP and don't do anything else to Necrons, as far as a buff goes, Necrons will become terrible. They have decent shooting and are tough, but that's it. They suck in combat, and can still be just as easily killed as Space Marines, but without anything to help them out, they will be just plain bad.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I hope to god not. It would be ignored by so much, and would nerf the hell out of the entire book.

A FNP(5+) would be quite overpowered, especially when Orbs buff it to a 4+.

Kangodo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I hope to god not. It would be ignored by so much, and would nerf the hell out of the entire book.

A FNP(5+) would be quite overpowered, especially when Orbs buff it to a 4+.

But, Instant Death ignores it, whereas currently it doesn't.

 krodarklorr wrote:
But, Instant Death ignores it, whereas currently it doesn't.

That is true, so now we have the following:

Con:
-ID ignores it

Pro:
-Harder to wipe a squad out
-Multi-wound characters are way way way better (2+/3++ with a FNP4+ on a T5, W3-model?)
-You can still hit in combat

Kangodo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
But, Instant Death ignores it, whereas currently it doesn't.

That is true, so now we have the following:

Con:
-ID ignores it

Pro:
-Harder to wipe a squad out
-Multi-wound characters are way way way better (2+/3++ with a FNP4+ on a T5, W3-model?)
-You can still hit in combat

I suppose? But it would take away from the overall feel of Necrons. Which, I guess, arguably they've been doing with the 7th Ed. codexes anyway.

Ooh, I know!
I really don't want them to change anything about it, but for some reason quite a few people think it is overpowered and should be changed to FNP.
That is ironic because FNP would be a lot stronger unless you shoot with Melta, Krak and Lascannons at Warrior-blobs (in which case it's no wonder Necrons kick your ass all the time).

I've said it often enough: The only nerfs Necrons need are a price-increase on AB's, NS's and Wraiths.
Everything else just sounds strong if you haven't done the math on it.

 Ghaz wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Back when the codex came out, they had to make an entire line of plastic models to support it.

Not the entire line. The plastic Necron Warriors, Destroyers and the Monolith date back to 2002 and the 3rd edition codex. They did however receive a larger than usual number of plastic kits with their 5th edition codex in 2011.

Scarabs too. Those are also the same models.

Wraiths, Spyders and Flayed ones got completely redone

Necron Lords, Destroyer Lords and C'tan got turned into finecast.

Immortals were redone into plastic with a few modifications.

Pariahs got deleted ( )

Everything else is completely new.

Anyway, I would like to see more loadout options for warriors. They actually have fewer wargear options than the 3rd edition book, which is saying something.
Also, did I mention that I want pilots removed? The vehicles can still be open topped, it's just an option for a mechanical core like thing instead of a dude would be nice.
I would do it myself, but It will look like crap, like the time I tried sealing up the flyer's cockpit (which isn't even opentopped, so idk why the pilot is exposed :S)

Massive Nerf across the board.
I hate Necrons.


More seriously though, mindshackle scarabs are going to take a big hit.
Barges for sure, CCB is pure rule abuse (not codex fault though, just v7) and AB is way undercosted.
Flyers will get a nerf / price raise.
Wraith may also get one, they've been in every single list.

Tesla snap fire will go down to one hit on 4+ or maybe one hit but that would already be too kind from GW. It's currently breaking Jink, Hard to Hit and Invisibility (which is broken too but two wrongs don't make a right)
Immotekh's bs lightning will now allow for cover and jink saves. He will be forbidden from entering 2500+ points games.
Deathmarks price increase. Your snipers are the same cost as mine, but wound on 2+ on one target, have a 3+ save and deep strike ? no way.

Flayed ones get a buff for sure, monolith may also get one.

I've talked a lot about MSS with people.
And my prediction is: Lords and Overlords will get a gigantic buff, including MSS, but because it's worded differently people will think they got nerfed.

Deathmarks price-increase?
5 Scouts with Snipers are 60 points.
5 Deathmark are 95.
They gain Deep Strike, Hunters Mark and a 3+ with RP.
And they don't have Scout, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, ability to take heavy weapons and have 12" less range.
If anything I expect a drop to 18 ppm.

Kangodo wrote:
Ooh, I know!
I really don't want them to change anything about it, but for some reason quite a few people think it is overpowered and should be changed to FNP.
That is ironic because FNP would be a lot stronger unless you shoot with Melta, Krak and Lascannons at Warrior-blobs (in which case it's no wonder Necrons kick your ass all the time).

I've said it often enough: The only nerfs Necrons need are a price-increase on AB's, NS's and Wraiths.
Everything else just sounds strong if you haven't done the math on it.

Its not so much that RP/EL is overpowered, its just the current mechanic is clunky and breaks a few core mechanics and has more than its share of likely unforeseen and unintended advantages. Its already been pointed out that FNP is actually more advantageous but it works better within the framework of the rules.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Scarabs too. Those are also the same models.

Considering that they're a part of the Necron Warriors kit I thought that was a given

Kangodo wrote:


I've said it often enough: The only nerfs Necrons need are a price-increase on AB's, NS's and Wraiths.
Everything else just sounds strong if you haven't done the math on it.

I can agree to this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
Massive Nerf across the board.
I hate Necrons.


More seriously though, mindshackle scarabs are going to take a big hit.
Barges for sure, CCB is pure rule abuse (not codex fault though, just v7) and AB is way undercosted.
Flyers will get a nerf / price raise.
Wraith may also get one, they've been in every single list.

Tesla snap fire will go down to one hit on 4+ or maybe one hit but that would already be too kind from GW. It's currently breaking Jink, Hard to Hit and Invisibility (which is broken too but two wrongs don't make a right)
Immotekh's bs lightning will now allow for cover and jink saves. He will be forbidden from entering 2500+ points games.
Deathmarks price increase. Your snipers are the same cost as mine, but wound on 2+ on one target, have a 3+ save and deep strike ? no way.

Flayed ones get a buff for sure, monolith may also get one.

What you forget is, nerfing something AND raising the points cost, will limit, if not stop the use of the unit all together. And what army do you even play? Because I'm pretty sure you have plenty of options to deal with Necron's stuff, and are probably just butt hurt about losing a few times to Necrons.

Yes, the Command Barge needs a price increase and some rules changes, sure. MSS will stay, but get worded differently so it actually works decent. Otherwise, 90 points for an Overlord with gakky combat abilities? No. Simply, no.

And Deathmarks are not as amazing as you make them out to be. Yes, they can deep strike, yes they can wound ONE unit on a 2+. They have 24" guns. And will typically be out in the open. They can't act like generic snipers, and will probably get shot to bits as soon as they come out.

Imotehk is also a 225 point named character that is gakky in CC, has a one time use shooting attack, and a flamer. I'm okay with him having ONE good ability. Will they change the wording and effect slightly? Sure. Otherwise, he'll become a LoW and that'll be the end of it.

 krodarklorr wrote:

What you forget is, nerfing something AND raising the points cost, will limit, if not stop the use of the unit all together. And what army do you even play? Because I'm pretty sure you have plenty of options to deal with Necron's stuff, and are probably just butt hurt about losing a few times to Necrons.

Yes, the Command Barge needs a price increase and some rules changes, sure. MSS will stay, but get worded differently so it actually works decent. Otherwise, 90 points for an Overlord with gakky combat abilities? No. Simply, no.

And Deathmarks are not as amazing as you make them out to be. Yes, they can deep strike, yes they can wound ONE unit on a 2+. They have 24" guns. And will typically be out in the open. They can't act like generic snipers, and will probably get shot to bits as soon as they come out.

Imotehk is also a 225 point named character that is gakky in CC, has a one time use shooting attack, and a flamer. I'm okay with him having ONE good ability. Will they change the wording and effect slightly? Sure. Otherwise, he'll become a LoW and that'll be the end of it.

Raising the cost is nerfing something, so it's the same thing, so no need to do it twice.

I have plenty of options and I generally don't care about the Necrons (or any army for that matter).

The Command Barge is utterly broken, MSS are utterly broken, they make just about any real CC threat afraid of a single gakky necron lord. how much sense does that make to you ? for 15 points ?
No point talking about naked overlords, the upgrade to phaeron for example is already a big load of bull, as it unlocks way undercosted units.

Deathmarks are shotguns not snipers, they may not be amazing but their ability to deep strike and one shot MCs isn't too bad. Probably not good enough to be nerfed though you're right.

Imotekh is a problem because his ability ignores most game mechanics AND scales with the size of the battle. On a 90K points Apocalypse battlefield, he's worth 5k points at the very least.
That makes him useless in small games and completely OP in big games.


And I also hope they fix the death ray / reword it so it doesn't just hit invisible / flyers.

That Space Wolf-chariot is way, way better than the CCB. So I wouldn't really expect a nerf if I were you.

Please tell me how a squad of ASM are afraid of a Lord with MSS.
He will just Shackle the worst model of the squad and then you wipe the entire group out.
And what's the deal with Phaeron? It has to be one of the worst upgrades in the entire Codex.

The space wolf chariot looks ridiculous, that's a heavy tax.
The CCB basically gives the lord 6HP plus immunity to small arms fire plus ... come on.

ASM are not good assault troops, that's why they don't really care.

Try a daemon prince or a Kharn or some really violent CC unit, it can't handle D3 + special abilities hits of its own weapons plus the Necron lord.

Phaeron gives you access to royal courts, which have "nice" options.
For 25 points you get a stormtek who has a Voltaic staff (12" S5 Assault 4 Haywire). That's serious bs there.
For 30 points you get a despairtek with an abyssal staff (template S8AP1, wound on leadership, does nothing to vehicles).

Or it can get a Veil of darkness (total 55 points) which allows him to Gate of Infinity for free and without any risk of dispel.

So MSS is only a threat if your single model unit gets charged by a Destroyer Lord with MSS that is always accompanied by 6 Wraiths?
I think MSS would be the least of your worries.

With ASM I was more aiming at any CC-unit that consists of 5 or more models.
You sacrifice the worst model from the unit and then wipe out the entire Necron-blob.
My Blood Angels are never afraid of MSS, but that is probably because I know how easy it is to counter MSS.

No, Phaeron does not give you access to Royal Courts.
Being a (named) Overlord gives you access to Royal Courts, Phaeron gives your unit Relentless.
Despairteks are only an issue when used with Deathmarks and Veil of Darkness is hardly used because it's 60 points in total.
Voltaic Staff could become Assault 3, but they still suffer from the "Overlord-tax", which isn't as bad as it used to be now that we have CCB.

morgoth wrote:
The space wolf chariot looks ridiculous, that's a heavy tax.
The CCB basically gives the lord 6HP plus immunity to small arms fire plus ... come on.

ASM are not good assault troops, that's why they don't really care.

Try a daemon prince or a Kharn or some really violent CC unit, it can't handle D3 + special abilities hits of its own weapons plus the Necron lord.

Phaeron gives you access to royal courts, which have "nice" options.
For 25 points you get a stormtek who has a Voltaic staff (12" S5 Assault 4 Haywire). That's serious bs there.
For 30 points you get a despairtek with an abyssal staff (template S8AP1, wound on leadership, does nothing to vehicles).

Or it can get a Veil of darkness (total 55 points) which allows him to Gate of Infinity for free and without any risk of dispel.

If you don't want to face MSS then perhaps use guns on the model and don't just rely on the melee monster to autowin combat. Without MSS the Necron lord would e utterly useless I feel.
You talk about Royal courts being amazing for their points cost. They may be but Necons can't use paychic powers or even deny the opponents psychic phase really so we have Crypteka which are a joke (even forh eir cost) compared to armies with the ability to use invisibility.

We can gate of Infinity easily? See my above point, so can you.

I guess I misunderstood the overlord / phaeron thingy then my bad.

Yeah it's so easy to counter MSS. Challenge ?
Damn, now your über CC machine is either not fighting or nuking itself / own unit or maybe fighting.

Overlord-tax ? seriously ? you pay a tax to get wildly undercosted units ? .. I think that's fine. That tax is free when taking a CCB lord anyway.

morgoth wrote:

Phaeron gives you access to royal courts, which have "nice" options.

No it doesn't. It just gives relentless.

seism85 wrote:

If you don't want to face MSS then perhaps use guns on the model and don't just rely on the melee monster to autowin combat. Without MSS the Necron lord would e utterly useless I feel.
You talk about Royal courts being amazing for their points cost. They may be but Necons can't use paychic powers or even deny the opponents psychic phase really so we have Crypteka which are a joke (even forh eir cost) compared to armies with the ability to use invisibility.

We can gate of Infinity easily? See my above point, so can you.

I use guns on them, I'm just saying they're broken, not everyone has a chance to dodge that fight.
The Necron lord is nowhere near bad. Want awful HQ choices ? come to codex Eldar, witness the almighty power of a 70 point HQ that can't do gak, has S3/T3 and a pitiful save.
Necrons don't have DTW ?
What do you care about invisibility, you're a Necron, half or more of your weapons do 50% DPS against invisibility and flyers.

morgoth wrote:
I guess I misunderstood the overlord / phaeron thingy then my bad.

Yeah it's so easy to counter MSS. Challenge ?
Damn, now your über CC machine is either not fighting or nuking itself / own unit or maybe fighting.

Use a sergeant to absorb the MSS, murder the rest of the squad with the beatstick.

If he has 2 MSS, then great, he just spent at least 165 points protecting 1 squad from close combat.

But yes, necron lords and overlords aren't terrible. I would like to see some decent ranged options, but other than that they are fine.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I guess I misunderstood the overlord / phaeron thingy then my bad.

Yeah it's so easy to counter MSS. Challenge ?
Damn, now your über CC machine is either not fighting or nuking itself / own unit or maybe fighting.

Use a sergeant to absorb the MSS, murder the rest of the squad with the beatstick.

If he has 2 MSS, then great, he just spent at least 165 points protecting 1 squad from close combat.

I'm glad you have a sergeant.
It's a valid point for some armies though so why not.

morgoth wrote:

seism85 wrote:

If you don't want to face MSS then perhaps use guns on the model and don't just rely on the melee monster to autowin combat. Without MSS the Necron lord would e utterly useless I feel.
You talk about Royal courts being amazing for their points cost. They may be but Necons can't use paychic powers or even deny the opponents psychic phase really so we have Crypteka which are a joke (even forh eir cost) compared to armies with the ability to use invisibility.

We can gate of Infinity easily? See my above point, so can you.

I use guns on them, I'm just saying they're broken, not everyone has a chance to dodge that fight.
The Necron lord is nowhere near bad. Want awful HQ choices ? come to codex Eldar, witness the almighty power of a 70 point HQ that can't do gak, has S3/T3 and a pitiful save.
Necrons don't have DTW ?
What do you care about invisibility, you're a Necron, half or more of your weapons do 50% DPS against invisibility and flyers.

Hahahahhahaha! Sure i'll use my 6 (maximum) dice to deny the 10 that you just threw at invis. What's that? You passed 5 times because you only need a 4+? Sure i'll DTW with my 6 dice (if i'm lucky) to try for five sixes, oh look i only got one. Damn now that was completley fair.

Sure i can spend my whole turn trying to kill you one invis unit that will most likley survive the onslought anyway while the rest of your army decimates me. Let's see if i have any real solutions that. I could MSS you, oh but you also only hit yourselfselves on sixes. I could throw some auto hit weaponry at you, ah damn can't use those when firing at BS 1. I could use tesla on you, hey look i hit you 12 times WITH EVERYTHING I HAVE. What's that? You just made your armour saves because tesla has no AP? Oh darn i guess i only get 3 wounds through but that's enough to kill what i need to right? Not when you lookout sir you psyker onto those amazing marine armour saves.

To be fair this is only an issue when facing The IoM.

seism85, if your opponent throws 10 dice at invis, you've already won.

You can just run around killing everything else and wait for the time he misses.