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 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Why does the game break?

Because there are no rules that cover the situation when a die ends up cocked and you can not determine what number was rolled.

The game broke before that, then, as there are no rules that tell us how to roll the dice in the first place.

The game is written on the assumption that people know how to roll dice. A cocked die has not been correctly rolled. You don't really need a rule to tell you to do it over.

This exactly.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And I saw a 2, now what?

can you cite a rule where I need you to agree with the result of my dice? if not your objection is mute, and you can see a pink unicorn for all it matters.

Can you cite a rule that states only your reading of the dice matters?

If not your objection to my objection is moot (Not mute).

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Why does the game break?

Because there are no rules that cover the situation when a die ends up cocked and you can not determine what number was rolled.

The game broke before that, then, as there are no rules that tell us how to roll the dice in the first place.

The game is written on the assumption that people know how to roll dice. A cocked die has not been correctly rolled. You don't really need a rule to tell you to do it over.

Clearly we do need a rule, as in its current incarnation the game breaks. Notice how they mention making a house rule for when this happens?

"Some players use a house rule that if any dice is not completely flat on the table, it must be re-rolled."

"We" do not need a rule. Maybe you need a rule but "we" do not and make do with things the way they are.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Notice how they mention making a house rule for when this happens?

"Some players use a house rule that if any dice is not completely flat on the table, it must be re-rolled."

Yes they do. Because different people have a different tolerance for how flat the dice must be sitting to be counted as a valid roll. That's not a sign that the game is broken... it's a sign that different people have a different idea of what counts as a cocked die.

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Notice how they mention making a house rule for when this happens?

"Some players use a house rule that if any dice is not completely flat on the table, it must be re-rolled."

Yes they do. Because different people have a different tolerance for how flat the dice must be sitting to be counted as a valid roll. That's not a sign that the game is broken... it's a sign that different people have a different idea of what counts as a cocked die.

It is a sign that different people have different ideas of cocked dice, but the rules also do not tell us what to do when this happens, though they mention a house rule on how to handle it.

If the aforementioned house rule was not there, this would not be an issue at all.

But it is there and specifically calls the second roll a re-roll. That is where the issue lies.

But its fine, we need a house rule to continue or the game comes to a stop until the number can be determined, and in Los Angeles that may not take too long because an earthquake could shake things up a bit and dislodge the cocked die, but in Chicago that could be a long time.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Notice how they mention making a house rule for when this happens?

"Some players use a house rule that if any dice is not completely flat on the table, it must be re-rolled."

Yes they do. Because different people have a different tolerance for how flat the dice must be sitting to be counted as a valid roll. That's not a sign that the game is broken... it's a sign that different people have a different idea of what counts as a cocked die.

It is a sign that different people have different ideas of cocked dice, but the rules also do not tell us what to do when this happens, though they mention a house rule on how to handle it.

If the aforementioned house rule was not there, this would not be an issue at all.

But it is there and specifically calls the second roll a re-roll. That is where the issue lies.

But its fine, we need a house rule to continue or the game comes to a stop until the number can be determined, and in Los Angeles that may not take tooe long because an earthquake could shake things up a bit and dislodge the cocked die, but in Chicago that could be a long time.

Unlikely there will be an earthquake that strong for quite awhile, and conveniently when you need it.

Nice try though.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is a sign that different people have different ideas of cocked dice, but the rules also do not tell us what to do when this happens, though they mention a house rule on how to handle it.

That's correct.

You'll note that the rules also don't tell us what to do in the event that a player spills his drink on the table, answers the phone instead of having their turn, or left their tape measure at home.

This tread is a solid win. Since the rules do not tell us how to roll the dice there for we cannot ever start a game . Honestly i have played since 02 and i have never seen a problem ever due to cocked dice causing an issue if its tilted aka not flat then it gets re-rolled. i solved this ages ago by rolling into a box on the table in a blank area. That is like saying you cannot roll dice out of a cup you have to use your hands lol. I still use my old metal Baal Predator box lid i will have to remember that if any one objects to me rolling into my box lid to turn it over and go but it is a games workshop made box lol.

"The game breaks" is a gross overexaggeration.

It doesn't. It is NOT an issue. It does NOT break the game. You roll a dice, it gets cocked, you and your opponent agree on a way to go on.

What DeathReaper wants to say is that there is no official rule by GW for this case, they merely suggest how it could be solved.

Can we please close the thread? It's starting to become another low point in the history of YMDC.

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is a sign that different people have different ideas of cocked dice, but the rules also do not tell us what to do when this happens, though they mention a house rule on how to handle it.

That's correct.

You'll note that the rules also don't tell us what to do in the event that a player spills his drink on the table, answers the phone instead of having their turn, or left their tape measure at home.

Sure, but drinks and phones are not a part of the game, and leaving your tape measure at home is not an action that needs a house rule.

Re-rolls are a part of the game, and covered by a specific rule, being that you can not re-roll a re-roll.

Had they said roll it again this would not have even been a topic.

 Sigvatr wrote:
"The game breaks" is a gross overexaggeration.

It doesn't. It is NOT an issue. It does NOT break the game. You roll a dice, it gets cocked, you and your opponent agree on a way to go on.

It is not a gross over exaggeration.
It does break the game. The game stops until you and your opponent agree on a way to go on aka house rule it.

What DeathReaper wants to say is that there is no official rule by GW for this case, they merely suggest how it could be solved.

The game breaks meaning there are no rules to cover the re-roll for a cocked dice. If they never mentioned re-roll in the house rule this would not be an issue at all.

Can we please close the thread? It's starting to become another low point in the history of YMDC.

Thread does not need to be closed, everyone has been civil and it is an interesting discussion.

Low point? How?

Because its been a waste of time reading something with zero substance

If to you, having to talk to your opponent means that the game breaks...yeah. All that pesky social interaction!

Fragile wrote:
Because its been a waste of time reading something with zero substance

Zero substance? I think you must not have read the thread and the issue the BRB causes by calling the cocked die being rolled again a re-roll...

 Sigvatr wrote:
If to you, having to talk to your opponent means that the game breaks...yeah. All that pesky social interaction!

The game breaks because there is no instruction on how to handle this situation. Talking to your opponent about a possible houserule is the solution to the game breaking, do not equate the solution with the issue.

I don't see the point, that's why I don't take this seriously. There's no rules issue. It will never be a problem in a game. So...? Oh, well +1.

The rules issue being lack of rules on how to resolve it, and mentioning a house rule that mentions re-roll specifically.

If you use that house rule what happens if you get a cocked die twice in a row?

Roll again?

Mechanically, there may be an issue.

Logically, it shouldn't be a punishment for something that is essentially out of the player's control.

If a person would consider re-rolling a cocked die a 're-roll' as far as the game mechanics are concerned (i.e. cannot be re-rolled further), regardless of the normal ability to re-roll the die (twin-linked, prescience, etc.), then that would be a bit petty in my book.

I would re-roll it as if the 'cocked' situation never occurred—consider it the same as if the die rolled off the table, perhaps—and play it normally from there. It's not something about which one should be overly stressed.

DoW

This thread is pure comedy gold.

I bring Fateweaver and Corbulo. I now use their re-rolls on the 4+ to determine if the die is cocked. Is that a reroll on a roll for a matter of a reroll?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Sure, but drinks... are not a part of the game,

Maybe for you.

They're more or less required to enjoy this game by this point, given the current state of the rules.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Roll again?

Well the house rule in the book calls it a re-roll, and you cant re-roll a re-roll, so you can not roll again if you get a cocked die twice in a row.

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Sure, but drinks... are not a part of the game,

Maybe for you.

They're more or less required to enjoy this game by this point, given the current state of the rules.

They may be consumed while playing sure :-)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DogOfWar wrote:
Mechanically, there may be an issue.

Logically, it shouldn't be a punishment for something that is essentially out of the player's control.

If a person would consider re-rolling a cocked die a 're-roll' as far as the game mechanics are concerned (i.e. cannot be re-rolled further), regardless of the normal ability to re-roll the die (twin-linked, prescience, etc.), then that would be a bit petty in my book.

I would re-roll it as if the 'cocked' situation never occurred—consider it the same as if the die rolled off the table, perhaps—and play it normally from there. It's not something about which one should be overly stressed.

DoW

I agree on how to play it, but the RAW is broke and that is all I was wondering.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules issue being lack of rules on how to resolve it, and mentioning a house rule that mentions re-roll specifically.

If you use that house rule what happens if you get a cocked die twice in a row?

Seriously man, I hope I never play against you. Every one I've ever played has just asked me "you think thats cocked?" and if theres ANY dispute, all we do is stack the dice. If it slides off, it's clearly cocked. Roll again till its flat. If this is that big of an issue, get a box top or something, that way it won't be cocked.

 Robisagg wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules issue being lack of rules on how to resolve it, and mentioning a house rule that mentions re-roll specifically.

If you use that house rule what happens if you get a cocked die twice in a row?

Seriously man, I hope I never play against you. Every one I've ever played has just asked me "you think thats cocked?" and if theres ANY dispute, all we do is stack the dice. If it slides off, it's clearly cocked. Roll again till its flat. If this is that big of an issue, get a box top or something, that way it won't be cocked.

Why would you hope that you never play against me?

This is a purely academic discussion, I have already said how I would play it.

Maybe I came off a bit harsh- What I'm saying is that I feel that needing a rule for dice rolling would be more game breaking than anything. I just wouldn't want to play against someone who busts out the laser level and protractor every time my dice decide to lodge themselves into some terrain.

As for the discussion, I think that cocked dice are most definitely a common sense issue. As far as my experience goes, I've always just played it like the cocked die never counted as being rolled.

I tried to solve this by going to the google definition of 'cocked' but after accidentally hitting google image search I've been fired for looking at inappropriate content

Thanks, DeathReaper

Fragile wrote:
Because its been a waste of time reading something with zero substance

totally agree can not believe i actually went page 2 thinking the conversation would change

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Roll again?

Well the house rule in the book calls it a re-roll, and you cant re-roll a re-roll, so you can not roll again if you get a cocked die twice in a row.

Sigh.

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules.

 Sigvatr wrote:
A "re-roll" in terms of rules is not re-rolling a dice because it is cocked.

A "re-roll" in terms of rules is you being allowed to re-roll because of a certain special rule.

Cocked dice aren't a re-roll as there is no rule about cocked dice. The BRB only suggests what other players do, it's not a rule, and re-rolls can only be granted by rules.

ref. p.11

Hint: You might want to add "academic discussion" to your list of definitions

I don't understand why DR is getting so much hate; he's been perfectly clear on the fact that this is purely an academic discussion, but a large number of the posts here are just attacks on him. Shame on the haters.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
I don't understand why DR is getting so much hate; he's been perfectly clear on the fact that this is purely an academic discussion, but a large number of the posts here are just attacks on him. Shame on the haters.

Because its pointless. Let's have an academic discussion on paint drying, with variables being the viscosity, air temperature, and color of the paint. Just because you can have a discussion on something, doesn't mean you should.