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Johnnytorrance,
What Rule states that the Drop Pod and Legion of the Damned are one Unit?

Arriving by Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve Correct?

LoTD are in Deep Strike Reserve when embarked on a Drop Pod Correct?
Deployment:
Pg 74 Codex Space Wolves:
"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves"

Conclusion:
LotD are Arriving by Deep Strike if they are embarked in a pod.

DeathReaper,
So you plan to place one of the Models and Scatter like required in the Deep Strike Rules?

There is no question that "if" you could stick the legion of the damned in a drop pod, they would still count as being in deep strike reserve.

The problem is, they absolutely must arrive using deep strike as per their special rule. They cant be inside a pod, because then they themselves would not be deep striking (re-rollable scatter roll included).


Units in a pod are in deep strike reserve, and are disembarking from a deep striking transport, but they themselves are not doing any deep striking. They never place a model on the table nor roll scatter.

JinxDragon wrote:
DeathReaper,
So you plan to place one of the Models and Scatter like required in the Deep Strike Rules?

If the rules for being embarked didn't over ride those rules, yes...

 DeathReaper wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
DeathReaper,
So you plan to place one of the Models and Scatter like required in the Deep Strike Rules?

If the rules for being embarked didn't over ride those rules, yes...

Where do they specifically state that you dont have to place the model?

Something like "instead of placing one model, ...."

Page and graph, specific rules please.

As to your hypotheticals - no, arriving by DS is not equal to DSR. To arrive by DS you do not HAVE to be in DSR (ref: GoI, VoD, Skies of Blood) initially.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
DeathReaper,
So you plan to place one of the Models and Scatter like required in the Deep Strike Rules?

If the rules for being embarked didn't over ride those rules, yes...

Where do they specifically state that you dont have to place the model?

Something like "instead of placing one model, ...."

Page and graph, specific rules please.

As to your hypotheticals - no, arriving by DS is not equal to DSR. To arrive by DS you do not HAVE to be in DSR (ref: GoI, VoD, Skies of Blood) initially.

Being embarked and having no permission to disembark and place the initial model.

Also Arriving by DS is equal to DSR...

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (Special Rules chapter, Deep Strike section).

Arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve.

So no specific rule overriding the requirement then?

You dont have to disembark - remember it is a rule to place a model where you want the unit to arrive.

If you say that s overridden, then you havent also scattered the unit - just the pod. And so on.

You cannot complete ANY DS rule.

So a one way dependence is now two way? Arriving by DS -> DSR. NOT DSR = Arriving by DS, otherwise you have the excluded middle fallacy.

Does not need a specific rule overriding the requirement, the unit is embarked, it can not be placed where you want the unit to arrive as it is embarked.

arriving by Deep Strike is called Deep Strike reserve.

The rules equate the two terms.

Ah, so specific vs general doesnt work here?

The unit hasnt arrived by DS, as it has failed to comply with any of the arrival via DS rules, and you have no specific rule stating it is exempt

Your "cant comply" only works if you try to claim it has arrived by DS. Its a tautology.

No where in the rules for LOTD does it say they have to arrive by deep strike. RAW doesn't state that. RAW says some units have to arrive by deep strike.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
No where in the rules for LOTD does it say they have to arrive by deep strike. RAW doesn't state that. RAW says some units have to arrive by deep strike.

Where are you pulling this flat lie from?


The "aid unlooked for" special rule that all LotD possess says they must all be placed in and enter the field from deep strike reserve.

aid unlooked for states

they always start the game in reserve and always arrive by deepstrike

deep strike states

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive,

from the section on reserves

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move fully onto the table from the controlling player’s own table edge (maps and diagrams illustrate table edges for the different deployment methods). Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules.

so.

the LOTD always start the game in reserve, and always arrive by deepstrike.

so we put them in reserves, check rules for reserves.

they arrive when they arrive, so it must arrive by deepstrike. the reserves rule tells us to deploy as per the rules in deepstrike.

when we look under "arriving by deepstrike" we see there is the wording "deploy them as follows first place one model.."

failure to follow this sequence means they have not arrived by deepstrike.

so no, you cannot put LoTD into an allied drop pod, because they do not "deploy as per deep strike" which as stated under reserves is how they must deploy if they arriving by deepstrike. as LoTD ALWAYS arrive by deepstrike, they must ALWAYS do this. if they are in a drop pod they are not doing this.

Plus how did they embark on the drop pod from the
Space wolves when the LOD are coming in from the warp and the pods not in the warp.

If they where meant to have a choice it would be in their options to take a drop pod. 8 pages of trying to convince people your right isn't a grey area. It's just silly, and shame shame shame.

Lungpickle wrote:
Plus how did they embark on the drop pod from the
Space wolves when the LOD are coming in from the warp and the pods not in the warp.

You realize that is just fluff and not actual rules right?

Eihnlazer wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
No where in the rules for LOTD does it say they have to arrive by deep strike. RAW doesn't state that. RAW says some units have to arrive by deep strike.

Where are you pulling this flat lie from?


The "aid unlooked for" special rule that all LotD possess says they must all be placed in and enter the field from deep strike reserve.

I'm not lying, this is the rule for Aid Unlooked for:

Aid Unlooked For:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and must start the game in reserve. When placing the unit in reserves, you must tell your opponent that it is arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by deep strike. They always start the game in reserve and always
arrive by Deep Strike.

"Some units must arrive by deep strike" "they always start in reserves and must arrive by deep strike" it literally doesn't say LOTD has to arrive by deep strike.
So I concede it's rule as intended. But rule as written...no

By the way, I'm going off of the Aid Unlooked for rule in their codex, not the Space Marine Codex.

The LOTD Codex has a different Aid Unlooked for special rule and in it they lost the ability to re-roll scatter

Can't figure out how to add a spoiler for the photo

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Conclusion: you have failed, despite repeated requests to do so, to show actual, written rules that state what you claim and every argument has been rebutted.

NOOOOO I HAVE FAILED IN NOSFERATU'S EYES!!!!!

pg 135:
"Similarily you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport Vehicles in Reserve in which case they will arrive together."

Did the Drop Pod arrive by deep strike? YES
Do the Pod and Embark Unit arrive TOGETHER? YES
Then they ARRIVE BY DS TOGETHER.

This is RAW

Except they did not arrive by deep strike, they arrived by deep striking transport.

xAndurilx wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Conclusion: you have failed, despite repeated requests to do so, to show actual, written rules that state what you claim and every argument has been rebutted.

NOOOOO I HAVE FAILED IN NOSFERATU'S EYES!!!!!

pg 135:
"Similarily you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport Vehicles in Reserve in which case they will arrive together."

Did the Drop Pod arrive by deep strike? YES
Do the Pod and Embark Unit arrive TOGETHER? YES
Then they ARRIVE BY DS TOGETHER.

This is RAW

Cool. So you think a unit embarked on a flyer can arrive zooming?

Arriving together does not mean you have arrived by the same method. This is actual language....

 DeathReaper wrote:
*snip*
Also Arriving by DS is equal to DSR...

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (Special Rules chapter, Deep Strike section).

Arriving by Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserve.

That passage only says what you should do if you are going to use Deep Strike. It does not mean that whenever you do those actions it's about Deep Striking.

Logical fallacy.
"X happens if Y" doesn't mean "X only happens when Y".

I claim it on the basis that you're looking at paragraph that is specifically dedicated to explaining how to play Deep Strike. Whatever is written there may or may not be exclusive to deep striking.

Also I would like someone to confirm that "Deep Strike Reserve" is actual game term that is defined, used or referenced in the rulebook.

I was about to confirm "Deep Strike Reserve" for you but had a scrutiny reading of the Reserves and Deep strike, and the only reference is above (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

So only "tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike" is RaW, and kind of solves the entire debate in another way:
Can the unit Deep Strike? Yes/No
If Yes, declare upon Reserves.
Unit Deep Strikes.

Clearly, embarked passengers may not have the Deep Strike rule, and if they do, they are not Deep Striking (folowing placement rules) only their transport is.

The embarked unit is in Deep Strike Reserve, and as such will be arriving by Deep Strike, because arriving by Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.

The embarked unit is not in Deep Strike Reserve because it is not Deep Striking.
You cannot declare to your opponent it is Deep Striking.
You cannot declare it is Deep Striking if it does not have the Deep Strike Rule.
You cannot Deep Strike the Unit because it is embarked.

You can declare to your opponent the vehicle (transport) is Deep Striking.
You can declare it is Deep Striking because it has the Deep Strike Rule.

Also, the rule quote is " it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)".
"Sometimes" is not a quantifiable RaW rule. Because i could tell you that i have no idea and never heard the term "Deep Strike Reserve" and still follow RaW perfectly. This would be because the term "Deep Strike Reserve" is sometimes non-existent (by RaW)

 BlackTalos wrote:
The embarked unit is not in Deep Strike Reserve because it is not Deep Striking.

Except the rules for Drop Pods clearly state the embarked unit is in Deep Strike Reserves. It is because of this Grey Knights from the Strike Force can still benefit from one of their Command Traits when arriving via SW Drop Pod.

 Happyjew wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
The embarked unit is not in Deep Strike Reserve because it is not Deep Striking.

Except the rules for Drop Pods clearly state the embarked unit is in Deep Strike Reserves. It is because of this Grey Knights from the Strike Force can still benefit from one of their Command Traits when arriving via SW Drop Pod.

This rule: Pg 74 Codex Space Wolves:
"Dop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves".

However as Barrogh pointed out, "Deep Strike Reserves" is not actually defined in a Rulebook. It is a term sometimes used by players. As i pointed out, i can simply ignore it by stating "i'm not part of the sometimes"

The only existing RaW for Deep Strike is that "you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike"
Can you tell your opponent that the Unit is arriving by Deep Strike when it is embarked?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
The embarked unit is not in Deep Strike Reserve because it is not Deep Striking.

Except the rules for Drop Pods clearly state the embarked unit is in Deep Strike Reserves. It is because of this Grey Knights from the Strike Force can still benefit from one of their Command Traits when arriving via SW Drop Pod.

This rule: Pg 74 Codex Space Wolves:
"Dop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves".

However as Barrogh pointed out, "Deep Strike Reserves" is not actually defined in a Rulebook. It is a term sometimes used by players. As i pointed out, i can simply ignore it by stating "i'm not part of the sometimes"

The only existing RaW for Deep Strike is that "you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike"
Can you tell your opponent that the Unit is arriving by Deep Strike when it is embarked?

Your claim was that the unit was not in Deep Strike Reserves. I pointed out that you were in error as the rules specifically state they are in Deep Strike Reserves.

I did indeed claim so, by "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike"
So with a Unit of Grey Hunters in a Space Wolf Drop Pod, by RaW i can claim:

Grey Hunters do not have the Deep Strike Special Rule, "it will be arriving by Deep Strike" is impossible. The unit cannot be in Deep Strike Reserves.
"Dop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves". The unit must be in Deep Strike Reserves.

Contradictory but both RaW.

Luckily for us Deep Strike Reserves is a term sometimes not used, so the contradiction doesn't matter.

 BlackTalos wrote:
The embarked unit is not in Deep Strike Reserve because it is not Deep Striking.

100% incorrect, as such the rest of your post holding to this premise is false.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (Special Rules chapter, Deep Strike section).

Arriving by Deep Strike = called Deep Strike Reserve.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
The embarked unit is not in Deep Strike Reserve because it is not Deep Striking.

100% incorrect, as such the rest of your post holding to this premise is false.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (Special Rules chapter, Deep Strike section).

Arriving by Deep Strike = called Deep Strike Reserve.

the LOTD always start the game in reserve, and always arrive by deepstrike.

so we put them in reserves, check rules for reserves.

they arrive when they arrive, so it must arrive by deepstrike. the reserves rule tells us to deploy as per the rules in deepstrike.

when we look under "arriving by deepstrike" we see there is the wording "deploy them as follows first place one model.."

failure to follow this sequence means they have not arrived by deepstrike.

so no, you cannot put LoTD into an allied drop pod, because they do not "deploy as per deep strike" which as stated under reserves is how they must deploy if they arriving by deepstrike. as LoTD ALWAYS arrive by deepstrike, they must ALWAYS do this. if they are in a drop pod they are not doing this.


arriving by deepstrike requires that you deploy as per the rules for arriving by deepstrike, a unit embarked in a deep striking transport is not doing this so they are not "arriving by deep strike" the transport is. There is no where that says the unit also counts as being deployed as per arriving by deep strike, so the unit embarked is not arriving by deepstrike.