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Ok, so been thinking about Rough Riders and how to improve their usage at all costs...

So far, its Librarian on bike with the 4+ squad invulnerable and maybe hoping for invisibility?

Librarian
Bike
Shield eternal (not familiar with codex yet, but squad wide 4+ option)
Not sure which powers to try

Death Riders X 10
Melta Bombs


The goal is to have them patiently creep up the field (all this is cover pending) (unless the Librarian gets invisibility) and to find a decent target that they may be able to kill, all fire their pistols and charge. Hopefully the Librarian can activate force weapons on the unit and they can do some damage.

(correct me if im wrong)

Thats 31 S5 Ap3 attacks on the charge at WS4 after firing las pistols with the hammer of wrath bonus (not including the librarian) possible with force weapons.

Whats the math on this?
Anyway at all to improve this unit? (any points cost, I do not care haha)

Is this the pinnacle of Rough Rider effectiveness?

I'd give the Death Rider sarge a power axe, their biggest problem is if they don't wipe a unit they get stuck in combat playing slaps the rest of the game. Also, Death Rider command squads can take demolition charges, which are nice for beating up death stars.

Power axe, got it. This will be the first time in history I have used something thats not a power sword!

Is the loss of one squad of 10 getting the librarian buffs and halving it into 5 normal squad, 5 in command squad then?

The best way to use rough riders effectively is to turn them into death riders and skip the IC support. Death riders get W2/4+/6+ FNP, which means that they have decent resistance to light weapons and force your opponent to dedicate some real guns to dealing with them if they want to stop the charge. And since the platoon structure allows you to take an (effectively) unlimited number of them in a single FOC slot there's no reason to screw around with trying to make one super-squad. Just replace the IC with another 10-man squad, a 4++ is much worse than having twice as many models on the table.

Yes, but I want one super squad.

Improving one squad at all costs is kind of what im after. Otherwise I will just g back to the old way of taking 10-30 like I used to.

At any points cost, whats the best this unit can be is what I am after.

 Badablack wrote:
I'd give the Death Rider sarge a power axe, their biggest problem is if they don't wipe a unit they get stuck in combat playing slaps the rest of the game.

Wouldn't making the included Librarian a White Scars librarian solve this issue?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Ok, so been thinking about Rough Riders and how to improve their usage at all costs...

So far, its Librarian on bike with the 4+ squad invulnerable and maybe hoping for invisibility?

As far as I am aware, the only squad 4+ invulnerable is a psychic power that you would have to roll for. The Shield Eternal is just a storm shield that grants Eternal Warrior to the bearer, if I am remembering correctly.

I'm still trying to figure Rough Riders out, and I'm determined. So far, I Iike them in reserve with two flamers. That way they don't come on until I've weakened the enemy shooting and their assault units are close. I outflank with them if I get the warlord trait, otherwise they're counter assault. The 12" flamer threat range is quite nasty against Eldar, Tau, Orks, IG, and Nids. Having a whole board edge when they move on plus the 12" move is awesome. Then the enemy has one turn to kill the squad (which I usually hide behind terrain) or else they're getting hit by a S5 Ap3 cavalry charge. Overwatch is still a big problem, particularly flamers, but in the right moment Riders can make a difference.

I do the same thing with my hellhound, outflank or reserves. Gives the enemy something to think about, and gives me a nice mid game alpha strike.

No jink or T4 is killer though.

Banbaji: What is superior about the White Scar Librarian?

Also, I havent git the rules for him yet, but thats what I was told, he has a 4+ invulnerable ability for the squad. If its a psychic power that changes things drastically. Im hoping to check tomorrow what the rules 100% are for this dude.


The Silo: Im using them as a mechanized cavalry unbound army. The 11 riders, 3 sentinels (tankettes) a malcador defender and the hell hound, plus whatever of my other light vehicles I can fit in. I was gonna send the hell hound with these guys to hopefully do some damage. Given the new info on the librarian, I may have to outflank to increase their odds of living.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Banbaji: What is superior about the White Scar Librarian?

White Scars CT gives the Librarian skilled rider and hit and run, which he can bestow to whatever unit he's in. Hit and Run will give the riders the chance to leave combat and charge again the following turn.

Only problem with that is that hunting lances are one-use only, not on-the-charge only. Meaning that even if you get off another charge, you'll still be stuck with mere CCW's rather than the power weapons.

I can't fathom why they didn't just give them power lances.

Power lances and furious charge. BOOM. It would have been so fething easy, and then they'd at least be serviceable.

Hit and run could be useful. Chapter tactics costs nothing right?

Lances frequently snapped, explosive ones should too. Doesnt help the unit rules wise but I can see why they have it that way. Afterwards I can use them as a moving las pistol wound soaker or something. I mean, they arent terrible on the charge, the krieg ones are better than most units in the guard army in combat. Not ideal of course.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hit and run could be useful. Chapter tactics costs nothing right?

Lances frequently snapped, explosive ones should too. Doesnt help the unit rules wise but I can see why they have it that way. Afterwards I can use them as a moving las pistol wound soaker or something. I mean, they arent terrible on the charge, the krieg ones are better than most units in the guard army in combat. Not ideal of course.

Eh, they're pretty terrible after the 1st charge, S3 hammer of wrath, I3 with all of their following attacks.

It's just bizarre about the lance, since the game actually has a class of power weapon called "lance" which for some reason doesn't include "hunting lances."

 TheSilo wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hit and run could be useful. Chapter tactics costs nothing right?

Lances frequently snapped, explosive ones should too. Doesnt help the unit rules wise but I can see why they have it that way. Afterwards I can use them as a moving las pistol wound soaker or something. I mean, they arent terrible on the charge, the krieg ones are better than most units in the guard army in combat. Not ideal of course.

Eh, they're pretty terrible after the 1st charge, S3 hammer of wrath, I3 with all of their following attacks.

It's just bizarre about the lance, since the game actually has a class of power weapon called "lance" which for some reason doesn't include "hunting lances."

Yea I agree. But with Krak Grenades they can take on monsters and vehicles with success. But its not worth bargaining on I guess.

Power Lances would improve it a lot more. Just say they carry multiple lances to battle and its all sorted. Would be so much better.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Banbaji: What is superior about the White Scar Librarian?

White Scars CT gives the Librarian skilled rider and hit and run, which he can bestow to whatever unit he's in. Hit and Run will give the riders the chance to leave combat and charge again the following turn.

Only problem with that is that hunting lances are one-use only, not on-the-charge only. Meaning that even if you get off another charge, you'll still be stuck with mere CCW's rather than the power weapons.

I can't fathom why they didn't just give them power lances.

Power lances and furious charge. BOOM. It would have been so fething easy, and then they'd at least be serviceable.

To be honest in the fluff there's a nasty explosive on the end of the lance that detonates as it drives into the foe, obviously taking away the trademark punch once lost and probably the pointy end.

If GW revisit RR's in a data slate and give them new rules and retcon that, then maybe. But since the one-shot element has to remain without a retcon its kinda difficult to justify RRs.

I think Scout would be great for them. At least then they'd be more threatening in an offensive capacity, and even with no charge from reserves, double meltas and the fire-directing potential for that unit to destroy any MEQ while being cheap sounds an interesting proposition. Oh, and put them back at 10 points.

Except with the whole explosive charge thing, they still get multiple attacks with it on the charge. Which makes no sense with the fluff.

I'd make it S5 Ap3 hammer of wrath. Reusable, but only one attack, but auto hits. And give them WS4.

Thats a good idea. Make the lance effect the hammer of wrath. Then they attack with whatever weapons normally?

1 Super squad?

You could bring tons of psykers and just pray you roll invisibility. Or at least stealth. Multiple invisibilities might give the squad the fear it needs.


Or, just bring TONS of roughriders. Your opponent will be awestruck/confused, and will likely make tons of tactical mistakes while blinded by the glorious visage of massed cavalry.

And the dice gods will always be with you.

 Hashbeth wrote:
1 Super squad?

You could bring tons of psykers and just pray you roll invisibility. Or at least stealth. Multiple invisibilities might give the squad the fear it needs.


Or, just bring TONS of roughriders. Your opponent will be awestruck/confused, and will likely make tons of tactical mistakes while blinded by the glorious visage of massed cavalry.

And the dice gods will always be with you.

Until I expand my Rough Rider forces one super squad is all I can use atm.

Yea if I manage to roll on invisibility, I will have a force to be reckoned with!

 Hashbeth wrote:
1 Super squad?

You could bring tons of psykers and just pray you roll invisibility. Or at least stealth. Multiple invisibilities might give the squad the fear it needs.


Or, just bring TONS of roughriders. Your opponent will be awestruck/confused, and will likely make tons of tactical mistakes while blinded by the glorious visage of massed cavalry.

And the dice gods will always be with you.

If they let you give Primaris psykers, priests, and commissars a horse mount...game over, it'd be rough riders all day, every day.

Definitely. When I used to have a lot of rough riders my opponents used to let me buy anyone a horse for 5 points. Which was very cool as it meant I could make a mobile guard army with all the benefits of being guard just hard to hide and no heavy weapons etc.

 TheSilo wrote:

If they let you give Primaris psykers...a horse mount...

 koooaei wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

If they let you give Primaris psykers...a horse mount...

AHAHAHA OH MY GOD I"M GONNA GET SOME ROUGH RIDERS JUST FOR THIS PURPOSE

 TheSilo wrote:

 Hashbeth wrote:
1 Super squad?

You could bring tons of psykers and just pray you roll invisibility. Or at least stealth. Multiple invisibilities might give the squad the fear it needs.


Or, just bring TONS of roughriders. Your opponent will be awestruck/confused, and will likely make tons of tactical mistakes while blinded by the glorious visage of massed cavalry.

And the dice gods will always be with you.

If they let you give Primaris psykers, priests, and commissars a horse mount...game over, it'd be rough riders all day, every day.

With some allies you could throw librarians in pods up the field to provide mobile invisibility positions. Would it be good? No. Would it be a waste of points? Yes. Would throwing psykers from space, on the flanks of cavalry, to give them magic shields awesome?