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Just out of curiosity, if he borrowed the titan model from the store, why did it have his own home-made pizza-box sized base on it?

As frustrating as this sounds, you said you made a couple of tactical mistakes, and some of the things he called you on are technically RAW (like the flyer moving less than 18" for some reason). Even with all the bad, you can still take some lessons away and use them to improve your game overall. So there is a positive note, and if you can take that away from the game and leave the bad behind then in the end, you've gained experience and lost nothing. You've won a lot more than the guy that wiped out your army by cheating.

When 'rules manipulation' is part of winning a game, I think there are problems with the rules.

Simply play him with a blob guard list, use tigerius and try to get the levitation power to make movement take forever, redeploy your blob five or six times, makes sure everything is 2" apart, always use first rank secon rank or fowards for the emporer, slow roll and measure each model individually, and shoot anti tank guns at infantry and lasguns at tanks. Then bragg on and on about how you have the best forged narrative and your army is so fluffy.

When he complains say that he has no grounds to complain on as there are no rules on complaining in the brb, then look it up to spite him.

Also be so overly gregarious to him it is annoying.

This is how you beat a waac player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
When 'rules manipulation' is part of winning a game, I think there are problems with the rules.

Welcome to 40k, the rulez holes big enough to climb through are on your left.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Being gracious in defeat even when your opponent is not is part of being a good sportsman. I don't know why you think being a bad sportsman would teach him any respect, I'm sure he'll just think you're a dick who can't deal with losing. You can't really take the morale high ground when you are lowering yourself to his level.

My uncle is a sportsman he won medals on the olympics and mom did judo and did well enough in euro championships, so I happen to know a lot of sports man, trainers and new people as I happen to be in a sports highschool too . If you think sportsman are "gracious" when they are losing then you have no idea about how sport on any level works.

My apologies if I did not word it correctly but I thought it was clear. When I say "a good sportsman", I'm talking about sportsmanship, that is, good sportsmanship, not good capacity to play sports:

sports·man·ship noun \-ˌship\
: fair play, respect for opponents, and polite behavior by someone who is competing in a sport or other competition

Full Definition of SPORTSMANSHIP
: conduct (as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing) becoming to one participating in a sport

Examples of SPORTSMANSHIP
He's a great player who's also admired for his sportsmanship.

First Known Use of SPORTSMANSHIP
1745

this is the one thing i hate about dakka, it is slowly turning into a dictionary.

LOL @ levitating Tigirius blob guard, that is one hilariously time consuming measurements machine. Looking up the rules for complaining in the BRB lol

 SHUPPET wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
People in here thinking the list is the issue. OP knew exactly what he would be up against, you can't blacklist someone from a store for bringing models you think are OP lol at least in my country anyway, pettiness aside its grounds for a discrimination lawsuit, although laws may be different for me of course.

Just in case people get the wrong impression and think Australia is the most pansy country in the world...

Actually as long as it's not because of race, gender, religion, age, etc, you are totally within your rights to refuse service or entry to someone in Australia and there is nothing that compels you to interact with people you don't want to interact with. Much like the rest of the western world.

If there's a specific reason you can describe that's not race/gender/religion/age, you can tell them that and say they are banned from the store for that reason. As far as I'm aware that's totally legal in Australia.

What you describe in the 2nd half of your post is more likely to be illegal as it may constitute bullying (not sure, since it's not a workplace or school where these things are typically talked about, but I believe it's considered a violation of rights to intentionally make someone feel like crap even if it's not a workplace or school).

If you ban people from a store for bringing a combination of GW models and do not ban everyone else who also brings GW models to the shop you have a case for discrimination. It would depend how deeply the court looks into the specifics of different models but even then I could easily see it getting ruled against the establishment. I may be wrong here, but I work in a pub and I'm just going off what my boss has told me about the justifications for the right to refuse service, and what I vaguely remember from my RSA. Laws may have changed since, or maybe we were never fully correct in the first place, but the realistic fact of the situation is, banning people for such petty, subjective crap such as having an unfriendly warhammer list, you are opening the door for a discrimination lawsuit whether it gets ruled in your favor or not, and that's something no store manager wants to deal with especially if he's just a GW employee.

I really don't think that would ever happen. If it can't be shoehorned in to race, gender, religion, age, disability, then it's not going to be a discrimination case.

You don't have to get in to anything like "If you ban people from a store for bringing a combination of GW models and do not ban everyone else who also brings GW models", it can be as simple as a person's behaviour. If the customer is being disrespectful, you can ban them. If the person is not being thoughtful of other players and won't get along, you can ban them (which can come down to disagreements arising from army list construction). If you decide you don't like flouro yellow shoes and the person is wearing flouro yellow shoes, you can ban them.

Australian law may be increasingly turning in to nanny state BS, but it's not that bad yet that you can't decide you want someone out of your store (for reasons other than race/gender/religion/age/disability).

The fact that you'd even suggest that you are more likely to have to worry about bullying charges for making comments is ridiculous lol, if it even did somehow make it to court (it never would), a quick mention that the "victim" yelled in your face over a game of warhammer or even some of the other anti-social behaviour exhibited in your direction would have it thrown out quick smart as an antagonized response as opposed to targeted bullying. Neither are impossible, but that discrimination case is 100 times more plausible than the bullying one.

Erm... yeah... but the yelling would also be cause to ban them from the store without a discrimination charge.

I'm not saying the bullying thing is likely, they're both so insignificantly tiny chance, especially if the player was genuinely being obnoxious. To think you're going to get a discrimination case against you for refusing to play with someone or the shop not letting you play in a way that diminishes the fun of other players is unlikely, I'd say bordering on impossible if the person was being abusive.

Either way, regardless of the legality, I think publicly shaming the guy is just as a douche move. It changes it from an obnoxious person to an obnoxious environment. Instead of one "TFG", you have a room full of "TFG's". I'm not going to pretend like I'm a saint, yeah, I'll crack it at people from time to time when I think they're being dicks, but I still think the goal should be to be gracious because you don't know the mental state of the guy you're shaming and shaming people is (for good reason) not socially acceptable in any mature community.

Telling the guy you aren't going to play him because he doesn't play the game in a way you like is, IMO, many times better and more productive than shaming him for all involved.

Umm I said in my original post he deserves a ban for his behaviour, just that you can't do it for playing unbalanced GW models, in a store that probably sells those exact products for playing with.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Umm I said in my original post he deserves a ban for his behaviour, just that you can't do it for playing unbalanced GW models, in a store that probably sells those exact products for playing with.

Thats why you do what i suggest in my post, use legitimate tactics to goad him into exploding.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Life's too short to deal with people like that. Don't play him.

Aye... Once no one wants to play him he'll either have to jump store or change.

As a wise old poster once said: The objective of the game is to win. The purpose of the game is to have fun. The two should not be confused.

However while justified to ban someone for behavior, banning someone for fluro yellow shoes is no go. I believe to enforce a dresscode you need proper signage, but regardless while you can ask someone to leave for wearing fluro yellow shoes until they fix it you most certainly not give them a spontaneous ban for it.

It doesn't make us a "pansy country" or a "nanny state", these laws are in place for sensible reason, the promotion of multiculturalism and the discouragement of discrimination is what makes Australia such a great country. If he returns as an honest customer here and is no longer wearing yellow shoes, than what's really the issue here?

Regardless, I'm done with this discussion as it's barely ontopic, you seem to be speaking in ideals rather than facts, and you just had a big 5 paragraph post caring more about trying to contradict me than my actual standpoint at all, seeing as from my very first post I suggested he should be banned for such abrasive behavior. Really what you didnt like was my suggestion to ridicule this TFG for his behaviour, thus you found a way to argue my posts all the way through even when you weren't actually sure how or why you were arguing against them. I'm not interested in this sort of pointless off-topic debate that doesn't even stem from any genuine opinion so I'll leave it at that in this thread, and concede all further responses your way since it's really not worth my time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Umm I said in my original post he deserves a ban for his behaviour, just that you can't do it for playing unbalanced GW models, in a store that probably sells those exact products for playing with.

Thats why you do what i suggest in my post, use legitimate tactics to goad him into exploding.

No, I meant while his behaviour is justification for a ban, his 40k list is not - although I do love your suggestion lool

This is why I never play with anyone I wouldn't have a beer with.

yeah.... its issues with the players, not the game...

sadly, attack wings magic cards, risk, every game ever has TFG's who abuse the rules/players

He wouldn't be getting banned for his army list, he would be getting banned for being disrespectful and unsportsmanlike towards other players who are also customers. It's bad for business if a player like that prevents new players from visiting the store and spending money there. Pretty easy to justify a ban that way. At the beginning of our last GW league the manager made it clear that if the opponent didn't give you a good mark for sportsmanship and had a legitimate reason why, you may be asked not to come back.

Simple truth is, he cheated you.
Horus still has to roll for his Warlord trait (although he does come with a 4+ to seize initiative).
There is, as far as I can find in my HH book, absolutely no upgrade that the Reaver can take that will block infiltrators.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Simple truth is, he cheated you.
Horus still has to roll for his Warlord trait (although he does come with a 4+ to seize initiative).
There is, as far as I can find in my HH book, absolutely no upgrade that the Reaver can take that will block infiltrators.

And none in the Apocalypse book either.
He played an unbound 30K list with 2 LOW, which is a little extreme. But more importantly, he cheated.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Simple truth is, he cheated you.
Horus still has to roll for his Warlord trait (although he does come with a 4+ to seize initiative).
There is, as far as I can find in my HH book, absolutely no upgrade that the Reaver can take that will block infiltrators.

And none in the Apocalypse book either.
He played an unbound 30K list with 2 LOW, which is a little extreme. But more importantly, he cheated.

I never suspected he cheated (I had however suspected he got at least the odd rule wrong, down to rule manipulation or something, by which I mean trying to find loopholes or do weird things legally) actually, as soon as I read Tannhauser42's comment I went and checked some things over Skype with a friend

I asked if Reaver Titans from the HH books can even take Void Missiles, and he said yes, telling me the full profile. The thing is, it has a 48-~infinite something range and isn't barrage so as far as we then realised it shouldn't have even be able to fire, (and wipe out a Devastator squad) as the board was 4x4.

My friend also pointed out that there is a 24'' no infiltrate/scout rule for the Mechanicum, but only Thallax get it and its called Djin Sight. He didn't even play it fully right there because Djin sight gives -2 to cover saves.

I'm not sure whether he was misinformed, but his defining characteristic is that he always knows rules to a t. So I'm not sure whether this was deliberate or not.

There is also a game I saw played a week or two ago where he used a Tau positional relay to bring an outflanking unit on the adjacent table edge, or his opponent's table edge to be precise (the PR being on a Stealth Suit team that outflanked) and I discovered while browing 1d4chan that apparently the PR only lets a reserved unit come on from the same table edge as the PR unit came on. I made a relatively inconclusive YMDC thread about it the day after.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
[
sports·man·ship noun \-ˌship\
: fair play, respect for opponents, and polite behavior by someone who is competing in a sport or other competition

Full Definition of SPORTSMANSHIP
: conduct (as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing) becoming to one participating in a sport

Examples of SPORTSMANSHIP
He's a great player who's also admired for his sportsmanship.

First Known Use of SPORTSMANSHIP
1745

Only nothing like that exists in sports. The best you can get is grandstanding from sportsman who hope for a specific group of sponsors. Sports aren't fair , those with better facilities , better medic team and more money win more. I have never seen anyone show respect to those that don't win, the closest to it is hate for people that may win against you. Even siblings that play the same sports have to forced by their trainers or parents to switch winining between them , so both get sponsors. It is a word that is describing something that never existed.

I must live in a weird section of the 40k universe. My area has several WAAC-TFG's. I have no problem referring to myself as WAAC, but non of us have this kinda of asinine attitude when it comes to pick up games. I always ask my opponents if they want to play on hard mode just forge a hard narrative. If they ask for hard mode, let the rules lawyering and cheese flow. And I own all of the models I do this with. I don't have to borrow the store models.

However the only way to beat TFG is to go to his level, which I find enjoyable, or tell him to get fethed in a nice calm, articulated way. Tell him people don't like his WAAC attitude when they are trying to play a friendly game. Either that or turn him into a 40k leper.

That was a very sad game. The saddest part of it all is that he wasn't even playing 40K with you but rather his own made up version of 30K rules abused as much as possible in order to reduce your fun. I can see at least 3 major rules he outright cheated on and as far as I can tell you never agreed to play a game of 30K.

I do find it unfortunate that there always seem to be people like this no matter what you do and where you go. It sounds like the rest of your club are good people though. There probably isn't anything that can be done about his attitude but you can encourage him to avoid watching your games in the future. My personal method is just to look straight at the person and in a very serious voice tell the person they are unpleasant and should take their attitude away from me, interestingly it usually works for me. I have never figured out why? Either way hopefully your future games are more fun.

 easysauce wrote:
yeah.... its issues with the players, not the game...

sadly, attack wings magic cards, risk, every game ever has TFG's who abuse the rules/players

Still gonna keep tilting at that particular windmill are we?

 Grimtuff wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
yeah.... its issues with the players, not the game...

sadly, attack wings magic cards, risk, every game ever has TFG's who abuse the rules/players

Still gonna keep tilting at that particular windmill are we?

Unless you think you think humans are incapable of choice. Then Easy Sauce is right. Bad rules dont make people act like a dirt bag.

Be fluffy and brag about your fluffyness. Become the fluffiest bunny. But only around him.

Slow down your games and always play him and him only, take noncompetitive lists designed for slowplay and thank him for helping you practice for competitions.

Play him and him only, single him out. Suck up his time.

Spam weird units, make up your own names for units.

Call primaris psykers rolling on biomancy muscle wizards and say I CAST FIST every time you roll for a power.

Name every important characteer and demand he use their names.

Change amd switch the names of the aforementioned characters.

Do what my buddies do and forget/dont read the relavent rules for your stuff, make him look up everything.

Make up rules, say i think i heard this somewhere, then make up a rule and make him look up the rules.

Forget your core rulebook.

Proxy everything.

Use his dice when you have a huge roll to make.

Demand to play on the floor.

Celebrate each minor victory.

Talk using a voice like the gman from half life and half life 2.

Repeat yourself and repeat yourself often.

Recite unrelated passages from the king james bible.

Quote movies.

Greet hime like Seinfeld and Newman, Hello waac player.

I am scaring myself with the amount of things i can come up with to get this guy

 Mr.Omega wrote:
WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POST IS IN NO WAY CRITICISM OF 40K
He doesn't change a thing in that army for when he plays beginners, in fact recently I saw him tabling a kid in 3 turns, teaching him effectively nothing save for the gazillion minor rule errors he obviously made.

Man that has to be an extreme scumbag. When we had a new kid come into our club, i didn't wanted to play him with my clan raukaan chapter master. Instead i pointed him to other guys, explained the situation of the power creep in my list and how i am testing it for the tournament. He laughed and said that he wants to see how long will he last, so i relented, but i still felt a bit like an A-hole. Seriously, WTF is the point in tabling a first timer with 5 riptides? I thought people want others to JOIN the hobby, not scare them away with a titan at 1250 points game

"I killed EVERYTHING" Take what you will from that.

i guess that guy is everything that is wrong in the hobby in one package. ''The biggest waste of flesh and bone in last 500(25 in this case) years'' Princeps prime Kurtiz on Herman von Strab
Perhaps you should bring even CHEESIER(if it is possible) list and steam roll him, enjoy the tantrum, add insult to injury, and hope he ragequits. Atleast it is what i would do...

Sounds like this guy "knows the rules to a T"- so long as it fits his version of the rules".


Sad. Love the minimum 48 inch missiles, on a 4 ft table.

I am still irked by the 17inch flyer thing. I see people saying "RAW", bro. But to me, sometimes when you measure a flying base out and set it down you aren't machine perfect. I guess that one bothers me because not one person I play would ever in 1000 years have called that one on someone. At WORST, we'd say "Hey that's 17, scoot it forward idiot" then we'd make fun of you for the rest of the game about always being an inch short. I don't care about RAW, not like that. That's like saying "I can't fight this guy, I will RAW that flyer off the table, man I am so good". If you are sitting here saying "Nah bro, I'd do that to you", all I can do is shake my head. That boggles my mind.

If this guy's defining characteristic is knowing the rules it's time to start calling him on it. He may act knowledgeable but it's clear he just pushes forward what he wants to be right, as the undisputed ruling. feth this guy off.

I think everything that Mr. Omega did is the correct way of doing things, other than I would never have played the guy in the first place, just to save myself the grief.

Honestly, I think the most polite way to troll the guy in another game would be to politely require that if he wants to play against you, the main rule is that all models under a player's control must belong to that player. It would probably send him into fits.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I asked if Reaver Titans from the HH books can even take Void Missiles, and he said yes, telling me the full profile. The thing is, it has a 48-~infinite something range and isn't barrage so as far as we then realised it shouldn't have even be able to fire, (and wipe out a Devastator squad) as the board was 4x4.

Yep. Vortex Missiles on a Reaver have a minimum range of 48" and are not Barrage (the "standard" missile launcher on the Reaver is Barrage, though).
Did this guy even have any of the real rulebook(s) with him? This is why Forgeworld gets a bad rep, because too many people try to use mis-remembered, half-remembered, out-of-date, or downright wrong rules.

This is somewhat of a sticky one, really. We have a total ass-hat, to be sure, but it's not so easy to just totally ignore someone when they're ALWAYS there and eager to be in the mix of things...even if it's just being an overactive spectator. Worse yet, he's apparently got the Store Manager in his corner (or, at minimum the manager attempts to overlook how much of an annoyance TFG is (maybe he spends a lot of money to get his free pass?)).

I guess the question I'm wondering....is it typical for this guy to do something along these lines (borrowing a few LoW to make a list) or was it just something special he did for you?

You could always have someone link him this thread with no explanation... Should prompt him to stop being a jackass or at least let him know the entire planet thinks he's one

Makumba wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
[
sports·man·ship noun \-ˌship\
: fair play, respect for opponents, and polite behavior by someone who is competing in a sport or other competition

Full Definition of SPORTSMANSHIP
: conduct (as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing) becoming to one participating in a sport

Examples of SPORTSMANSHIP
He's a great player who's also admired for his sportsmanship.

First Known Use of SPORTSMANSHIP
1745

Only nothing like that exists in sports. The best you can get is grandstanding from sportsman who hope for a specific group of sponsors. Sports aren't fair , those with better facilities , better medic team and more money win more. I have never seen anyone show respect to those that don't win, the closest to it is hate for people that may win against you. Even siblings that play the same sports have to forced by their trainers or parents to switch winining between them , so both get sponsors. It is a word that is describing something that never existed.

It really does. See golf, cricket, rugby etc. Its just the less civilise sports, football for example, where this concept of sportsmanship is now alien. Your viewpoint is far too limited if you say it has *never* existed, as I can assure you it has, and still does exist.

Makumba wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

sports·man·ship noun \-ˌship

Only nothing like that exists in sports. The best you can get is grandstanding from sportsman who hope for a specific group of sponsors. Sports aren't fair , those with better facilities , better medic team and more money win more.

That grandstanding from athletes will also include "sportsmanship". If you've seen any football match where a man gets injured, the opposing team will often kick the ball out of bounds to stop the game. The team with the injury will then use their opportunity to start from that point by throwing the ball back at the other team. Winning is good, winning through bad sportsmanship is frowned on.