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 SHUPPET wrote:
Regardless, I'm done with this discussion as it's barely ontopic, you seem to be speaking in ideals rather than facts, and you just had a big 5 paragraph post caring more about trying to contradict me than my actual standpoint at all, seeing as from my very first post I suggested he should be banned for such abrasive behavior. Really what you didnt like was my suggestion to ridicule this TFG for his behaviour, thus you found a way to argue my posts all the way through even when you weren't actually sure how or why you were arguing against them. I'm not interested in this sort of pointless off-topic debate that doesn't even stem from any genuine opinion so I'll leave it at that in this thread, and concede all further responses your way since it's really not worth my time.

Erm, no, I was firstly arguing the point that you aren't allowed to ban people for doing something in a store in Australia. The way you said it made it sound like Australia is a police state where you don't have right of refusal of service. You do, as long as it's not on grounds of race/gender/age/blah blah blah. Discrimination isn't illegal... discrimination for one of those specific reasons is illegal.

If my discussion was too verbose for you then I apologise, I have a tendency to do that, personality flaw and all that jazz. If it was simply a misunderstanding then, again, I apologise. We'll move on from that discussion of the legality of discrimination.

The second point that I think it's a douche move to ridicule them is a separate. Yes, I think it's a douche move to ridicule them. I think I stated that quite clearly. The rest of my post was not some elaborate attempt to contradict you just for the sake of contradicting you... seriously... get over yourself... I don't care that much about you personally.


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Makumba wrote:
Only nothing like that exists in sports. The best you can get is grandstanding from sportsman who hope for a specific group of sponsors. Sports aren't fair , those with better facilities , better medic team and more money win more. I have never seen anyone show respect to those that don't win, the closest to it is hate for people that may win against you. Even siblings that play the same sports have to forced by their trainers or parents to switch winining between them , so both get sponsors. It is a word that is describing something that never existed.

Well if we're talking about the validity of the term "sportsmanship" then ok, I kind of agree, actual sports people often have very poor sportsmanship and thus the term good sportsmanship is a misnomer.

Though it doesn't really change what I said (other than the fact I might have worded it differently). The trait of being gracious in victory/defeat/whatever is a desirable one in western culture. The fact we have people we tag "TFG" is because they are not being gracious in their behaviour. So yeah, I don't think responding with also being ungracious is beneficial to him or to the community at whole. I don't see that sort of school yard bickering to be desirable.

 easysauce wrote:
yeah.... its issues with the players, not the game...

sadly, attack wings magic cards, risk, every game ever has TFG's who abuse the rules/players

You can't abuse the rules in magic. That's the big difference. Some people who are utter TFG and rules lawyers are perfectly fine and reasonable opponents in MtG.

 Voidwraith wrote:
This is somewhat of a sticky one, really. We have a total ass-hat, to be sure, but it's not so easy to just totally ignore someone when they're ALWAYS there and eager to be in the mix of things...even if it's just being an overactive spectator. Worse yet, he's apparently got the Store Manager in his corner (or, at minimum the manager attempts to overlook how much of an annoyance TFG is (maybe he spends a lot of money to get his free pass?)).

I guess the question I'm wondering....is it typical for this guy to do something along these lines (borrowing a few LoW to make a list) or was it just something special he did for you?

I am about as confused as you on that last question, because I have not seen him pull this stunt in memory

If I had to guess, if there's anything attached to the way he played the game, its down to either him sneering because I literally walked up to him and challenged him (usually its book, walk in, get game, so its very rare), I'm one of the regular, experienced players there, and I haven't always agreed with the rules lawyering he did in my games in the past.

Spetulhu wrote:

Makumba wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

sports·man·ship noun \-ˌship

Only nothing like that exists in sports. The best you can get is grandstanding from sportsman who hope for a specific group of sponsors. Sports aren't fair , those with better facilities , better medic team and more money win more.

That grandstanding from athletes will also include "sportsmanship". If you've seen any football match where a man gets injured, the opposing team will often kick the ball out of bounds to stop the game. The team with the injury will then use their opportunity to start from that point by throwing the ball back at the other team. Winning is good, winning through bad sportsmanship is frowned on.

To add to that.
And did you watch the commonwealth games? Sportmanship through and through. In football matches all over the world, underdogs often get cheered off the pitch when they have performed well. Special players and special teams have had standing ovations from their opponents and opponents fans after masterclass displays/goals.
You see sportsmanship in mahor sports all the time. One that stands out for me is when Paulo Di Canio recieved a ball in front of an open goal, because the keeper was down injured. He instead of scoring, kicked it out for a throw in. He did this TWICE in his career. Or when arsenal replayed a match because they did not pass back to the opposition after a throw in due to an injury and ended up scoring from it. Or when a welsh team decided to pretty much give their CL place (qualification rounds) to Liverpool because Liverpool had qon it the year before but failed to qualify. And these are just instances in football.
Admittedly if you have watched Barcelona over the past 10years you will have seen a huge amount of gamesmanship not sportsmanship (the opposite).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Shake his hand, say good game, if he ever asks you for another game say "No thanks, I just want to play a more balanced casual game" and move on with your life.

Kronk approves.

Makumba wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
[
sports·man·ship noun \-ˌship\
: fair play, respect for opponents, and polite behavior by someone who is competing in a sport or other competition

Full Definition of SPORTSMANSHIP
: conduct (as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing) becoming to one participating in a sport

Examples of SPORTSMANSHIP
He's a great player who's also admired for his sportsmanship.

First Known Use of SPORTSMANSHIP
1745

Only nothing like that exists in sports. The best you can get is grandstanding from sportsman who hope for a specific group of sponsors. Sports aren't fair , those with better facilities , better medic team and more money win more. I have never seen anyone show respect to those that don't win, the closest to it is hate for people that may win against you. Even siblings that play the same sports have to forced by their trainers or parents to switch winining between them , so both get sponsors. It is a word that is describing something that never existed.

Sounds to me like you have rarely competed at a high level to me. Having competed in sports throughout highschool and college (even attending the NCAA national championship.) I can assure sportsmanship is not uncommon. IT may be in some sports, but great athletes most often have respect for their opponents. It also is very common when money isn't involved. The more on the line the more likely one is to be less sporting.

I would have dropped 2 farseer with 2 Revenant titans >.> See how he likes his own shenanigans.


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Then again i actually own those and most people dont have titans (which I am assuming you dont have)

To bad that he hAd not told you exactly what his list had in it prior to play. I play a elder player locally who often has just the right tool to jack up my game. I usually have resorted to putting models out on "display" for him to see that are not in my list. That way If he list tailors it's to something that I am not even fielding. People like the neck beard you faced R never fun to play. To bad you. Couldn't find a hidden corner of the field where you could hide a unit from him. Put everything except one unit in reserve and just play a denial game against him


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also. You might make it your life's work to annhiate him. Beg borrow and plead the necessary components from other people at the game store to routinely fed the most broke. List possible against him. I am thinking dual elder jet bike councils or a fateweAver demons Death Star would be fun. Maybe talk other local gamers on board so that every game for him is a blend of the worst deathsTar 40 I ever

"That's an awfully big Titan for such a small *wink* man."
"You know what they say about the man who obsesses about the small things."
"I'd hardly call that troop movement six inches."

If he wants to be a prat, you can as well. Gents like him are generally insecure.

I'm surprised you even continued the game after that. And that's not to say you had to be a jerk about it, but more or less laughed and said "well, man you got me beat. There is no way I could be that list." (Does a Revenant titan and Horus constitute the use of the word "list?")

It gives him the concession but without so much of an opportunity to gloat. Everyone would just say "well, duh" to that victory...although I'm sure everyone ALREADY says that! Seriously, who feels accomplished when being another list with an immensely unbalanced (for the purposes of this size game) unit?

If there's one thing competitive players who know the rules hate, it's slow play. I am one of those players so I know (I'm just not a douche about stuff like that guy is). Bring a foot guard list and measure each model, hide a lot of stuff out of LOS, check the codex and rulebook for everything you do, etc. Especially ask to see the rules for everything he does. For a rules lawyer, the guy sure got a lot of stuff wrong in that last game.

 Jidmah wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
yeah.... its issues with the players, not the game...

sadly, attack wings magic cards, risk, every game ever has TFG's who abuse the rules/players

You can't abuse the rules in magic. That's the big difference. Some people who are utter TFG and rules lawyers are perfectly fine and reasonable opponents in MtG.

"Hi, I'm kind of new to the game. I built this deck out of a couple starter packs and a booster. Mind if I play you so I can figure out how it works?"

"Oh sure, that's fine. Just let me pull something out."

*produces Vintage standard turn 0 win deck*

Every game has horrible people who play it. Don't pretend your game is special because "the rules are more balanced than 40k". Especially not Magic, the levels of "pay to win" in that game make 40k look like Warmachine.

Eh, there are assclowns in every 'game'. Truth is, this guy is pretty sad, probably has a pretty gakky life outside of the FLGS.

Honestly, the couple of TFG's I've encountered usually get dealt with via karma; I've seen plenty of them get squished by someone they shouldn't have pissed on.

*shrug* It used to enrage me, seeing people act like this during what's supposed to be a friendly game. But now I feel like they deserve pity rather than a dropkick, but The Home Nuggetteer has some GREAT anecdotes.

Toofast wrote:
If there's one thing competitive players who know the rules hate, it's slow play. I am one of those players so I know (I'm just not a douche about stuff like that guy is). Bring a foot guard list and measure each model, hide a lot of stuff out of LOS, check the codex and rulebook for everything you do, etc. Especially ask to see the rules for everything he does. For a rules lawyer, the guy sure got a lot of stuff wrong in that last game.

Dont even bring your brb, ask to use his to rub it in.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
yeah.... its issues with the players, not the game...

sadly, attack wings magic cards, risk, every game ever has TFG's who abuse the rules/players

You can't abuse the rules in magic. That's the big difference. Some people who are utter TFG and rules lawyers are perfectly fine and reasonable opponents in MtG.

"Hi, I'm kind of new to the game. I built this deck out of a couple starter packs and a booster. Mind if I play you so I can figure out how it works?"

"Oh sure, that's fine. Just let me pull something out."

*produces Vintage standard turn 0 win deck*

Every game has horrible people who play it. Don't pretend your game is special because "the rules are more balanced than 40k". Especially not Magic, the levels of "pay to win" in that game make 40k look like Warmachine.

1. Don't read stuff into a post I didn't write. Balance is not of question here. And even if were, if magic is unbalanced, 40k is a crater of a building where some scales used to stand.
2. There is no such thing as "vintage standard". That's like apocalypse killteam.
3. You can do exactly the same in 40k, by running a titan into an AOBR ultramarine force. Except you aren't done within 4 minutes of game play, but are forced to play for an hour, plus all the overhead you had preparing for a game.
4. For the average cost of a top tier 2000 point army, you can get two or three top tier magic tournament decks. A decent commander deck costs a fraction of any casual army you could think of. For the price of single unit of mek gunz I can buy two tournament decks or about eight of the kind of decks I usually play.
5. There are multiple ways to play magic, and quite a few of them make your monetary investment completely irrelevant. Drafts or sealed deck events, for example.
6. I never claimed there a no bad sports in magic, in fact there is a list of people banned from events proving the opposite. I claimed that many people which are seen as terrible opponents in 40k become awesome people to play MtG with, because some of their main flaws, rules bending and being picky about wordings simply disappear.
7. None of that has anything to to with any part of the magic rule-set. There is a tournament rule-set though, which governs official events by WotC (Btw, how many of official GW events are there? Right.) - which actually prevents such things from happening.

Of course, it is common among 40k player to run around with their eyes closed, fingers in their ears and loudly singing "lalala" whenever someone claims that there are rules without holes in them. GW's indoctrination does that.

The magic rule-set does not have holes. There is never a time where the rules do not exactly tell you what to do. There is never a time where a rule could be read in two different ways. A player will never be able to misread any rule on purpose to get an advantage out of it. There will never be a fight about how rules work. There is no most important rule in magic, because there is never a reason to roll a 4+ in order to decide how the game works.

This makes your average magic game far more enjoyable than your average 40k game. 40k has come a long way in that regard since 5th, but it's still a decade away from the quality of the rules writing MtG has. Actually more than that, the current rule-set was implemented around 2000 and has only received minor updates since then, mostly changing unintuitive rules to be more intuitive and/or easier to learn.

"Hi, I'm kind of new to the game. I built this deck out of a couple starter packs and a booster. Mind if I play you so I can figure out how it works?"

"Oh sure, that's fine. Just let me pull something out."

*produces Vintage standard turn 0 win deck*

The difference is , other then some guy going around with a few k$ deck around him, is that at worse I spent around 100$ for my deck, if I only started MtG and the dude with the "Vintage" deck spend thousands. Even if I quit now I lost "only" around 100 bucks. Probably less if I traded stuff or bought commons from the draft/left over box at a FLGS. In w40k I spend just as much as the "TFG" on my army , where the books alone double or triple the cost of noob MtG deck, and the army may never win just because GW decide to write a sucky codex for it.

It is impossible to play w40k out of the box like a draft tournament. You need to house rule stuff otherwise the game is unplayable.

TFG isn't about having an OP build lol, it's about the attitude, this was my original point, it's not against the rules to enjoy competitive gaming at the highest level, just being a dick makes you TFG

We probably need to have that written in bold letters at the top of every page on dakkadakka. And even then half the board would keep calling everyone who dares optimize their list and gameplay WAAC and TFG.

I quite enjoy my games against my regular Riptide spam opponent I feel like it's an accurate way of benchmarking my lists, sure I lose the bulk of them (Tyranids & DE here) however I enjoy the challenge and my opponent is a laugh. There is nothing TFG about him, in fact I'd feel TFG complaining about it, nobody forces me to play him in friendly games, i can handle losing dice games regardless, and in a competitive setting well it's no holds barred isn't it? That's the element of competition


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bunch of people in this thread expressing he should be banned from the store for his choice of models but no mention of his severe attitude issues, to me you guys are TFG, I'll take the guy with the Reaver who knows how to sell the story over the guy complaining all game that his Sisters of Battle lost because they only have half a codex and knowing this I should limit myself to 3 different playable models etc etc. As a player, I sit my models down before each game ready to accept a win or a loss and knowing the game will be unbalanced one way or another 99% of the time, and often massively so. TFG to me are the guys who make the process of getting there an unpleasant experience - unbalanced models can't do this alone, and if for anybody they do, I would only recommend to that person they take a long hard look at their perspectives on winning or losing and stop pretending to have some moral high ground, this unpleasant whinging is just as "TFG" as anybody else's method of enjoying competitive gaming, or actually even more so.

 Jidmah wrote:
We probably need to have that written in bold letters at the top of every page on dakkadakka. And even then half the board would keep calling everyone who dares optimize their list and gameplay WAAC and TFG.

Waac is a personality type we see in the game, list optimization is an exhibited behavior, but attempting to play a tournament level list against a new player with few models is also a symptom. Waac isnt about how you make lists its about who you intend to play with them and why you build them, a tournament list to play other competitive players is fine, a tournament list to roflstomp noobs at the flgs is waac.

As for tfg i have no idea what that means.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Unfortunately, every hobby has the issue of unfortunate personalities.

I would have said:

"congratulations, you have won on easy mode, as usual"

Or something like that. Because effectively, that is what he is doing. What bugs me though, is how much people tolerate this. I would condemn this person every time I see him, not for his playstyle, but for his attitude and demeanor. Its simply disrespectful to those who share the same pass time as you do. All because he has some sick need to feel better about himself.

I dont know the full situation. But thats generally how I feel about those people. Its a pity to see.

Got a guy in our group who brings a titan to 2000 pt games and I refuse to play against it. Game ruiner, absolutely pointless. Just getting shot to pieces over the space of a few turns, trying to enjoy your movement phase as much as possible :p.

Honestly, I don't get it. Why bring one of these things to a normal game?

TFG is, well, "that guy". The one no one wants to play. The final form of the WAAC player if you will, TFG combines the worst of everything that points to a WAAC player. It's the attitude mostly. WAAC is bringing the Reaver and Horus. He jumps to TFG because of his attitude, both during and after the game.

OP, you're a good man for seeing the game through so gracefully. Kudos, I do not think I could do the same.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
TFG is, well, "that guy". The one no one wants to play. The final form of the WAAC player if you will, TFG combines the worst of everything that points to a WAAC player. It's the attitude mostly. WAAC is bringing the Reaver and Horus. He jumps to TFG because of his attitude, both during and after the game.

OP, you're a good man for seeing the game through so gracefully. Kudos, I do not think I could do the same.

what does tfg stand for, im on mobile i cant hover over it to see what it is.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
TFG is, well, "that guy". The one no one wants to play. The final form of the WAAC player if you will, TFG combines the worst of everything that points to a WAAC player. It's the attitude mostly. WAAC is bringing the Reaver and Horus. He jumps to TFG because of his attitude, both during and after the game.

OP, you're a good man for seeing the game through so gracefully. Kudos, I do not think I could do the same.

what does tfg stand for, im on mobile i cant hover over it to see what it is.

T =that. G=guy. F=what "F" usually stands for.

 Voidwraith wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
TFG is, well, "that guy". The one no one wants to play. The final form of the WAAC player if you will, TFG combines the worst of everything that points to a WAAC player. It's the attitude mostly. WAAC is bringing the Reaver and Horus. He jumps to TFG because of his attitude, both during and after the game.

OP, you're a good man for seeing the game through so gracefully. Kudos, I do not think I could do the same.

what does tfg stand for, im on mobile i cant hover over it to see what it is.

T =that. G=guy. F=what "F" usually stands for.

That fething guy. Not a pretty title, but it's sufficient for the task.

Ooh, I don't get the chance to do this whole "point by point" thing very often. Thanks.

 Jidmah wrote:
1. Don't read stuff into a post I didn't write. Balance is not of question here. And even if were, if magic is unbalanced, 40k is a crater of a building where some scales used to stand.

You say balance isn't the issue then you spend a sizable portion of your post stating how much more balanced MTG is than 40k? At any rate 40k is a horrible set of rules. I will never deny that.

2. There is no such thing as "vintage standard". That's like apocalypse killteam.

I apologize for that one. I realized it could have been unclear after I wrote it and you responded. By "Vintage standard" I meant "a deck that is standard to see in the Vintage format." That was my fault.

3. You can do exactly the same in 40k, by running a titan into an AOBR ultramarine force. Except you aren't done within 4 minutes of game play, but are forced to play for an hour, plus all the overhead you had preparing for a game.

And during that hour you get to see cool models on a table instead of a bunch of cards. Different people value different things in a game. Don't say "the curbstomping doesn't take as long" like that's a universal selling point.

4. For the average cost of a top tier 2000 point army, you can get two or three top tier magic tournament decks. A decent commander deck costs a fraction of any casual army you could think of. For the price of single unit of mek gunz I can buy two tournament decks or about eight of the kind of decks I usually play.

And how long does a top tier MTG deck last you? Until the next tournament and you need a new deck, right? I'll admit this one is totally anecdotal but a Magic player who went into Warmachine said he built his army for significantly less than he spent on cards during a similar timeframe. In most wargames, not limited to 40k, you can use models that you bought 10+ years ago without any problems except maybe some conversion to update weapon options. Most of the Magic formats are not friendly to older cards as far as I am aware (especially because quite a few of them were written back before WotC knew what game balance was).

5. There are multiple ways to play magic, and quite a few of them make your monetary investment completely irrelevant. Drafts or sealed deck events, for example.

And with 40k you get nice models to sit on your display stand.

6. I never claimed there a no bad sports in magic, in fact there is a list of people banned from events proving the opposite. I claimed that many people which are seen as terrible opponents in 40k become awesome people to play MtG with, because some of their main flaws, rules bending and being picky about wordings simply disappear.

If you can't tell by now I am not really a fan of MTG (for many reasons, never liked the CCG business model, and it's remembered as "the CCG by Garfield" even though he made Netrunner which he thought was a much superior game, and I would agree with him personally). Its inclusion in this thread made me immediately imagine your post having a motive of "40k sucks, my game is so much better. Here's why." I get tired of people doing that kind of thing, no matter what game it is. I'm sorry if that was not your intent, but by your posting language it seems to be at least a partial motivation.

7. None of that has anything to to with any part of the magic rule-set. There is a tournament rule-set though, which governs official events by WotC (Btw, how many of official GW events are there? Right.) - which actually prevents such things from happening.

See point #1. Also the Magic style of different kinds of events is something I really like about the game (That and some of the Phyrexian card art are the biggest positives the game has in my opinion). However in 40k we have very nice independent tournament organizers that pick up the slack in this regard. The BAO tournament missions are some of the most interesting times I've had playing 40k short of crazy narrative scenarios or massive Apocalypse stuff.

Of course, it is common among 40k player to run around with their eyes closed, fingers in their ears and loudly singing "lalala" whenever someone claims that there are rules without holes in them. GW's indoctrination does that.

That's quite an interesting assumption you have made there, that because I said I enjoyed 40k I'm immediately indoctrinated by GW. I'm familiar with quite a few wargames and they all have various problems. I'd list them out but I don't think that would be all that productive. Suffice it to say that a combination of factors including player availability (actual decent players), model aesthetic, fluff, and variety of game formats make me support 40k over other games I could be playing, despite the fact that the rules are pretty horrible. If Infinity had more people interested in it, and I could get my regular 40k opponents transferred over, I'd start playing that more often.

The magic rule-set does not have holes. There is never a time where the rules do not exactly tell you what to do. There is never a time where a rule could be read in two different ways. A player will never be able to misread any rule on purpose to get an advantage out of it. There will never be a fight about how rules work. There is no most important rule in magic, because there is never a reason to roll a 4+ in order to decide how the game works.

See point #1

This makes your average magic game far more enjoyable than your average 40k game. 40k has come a long way in that regard since 5th, but it's still a decade away from the quality of the rules writing MtG has. Actually more than that, the current rule-set was implemented around 2000 and has only received minor updates since then, mostly changing unintuitive rules to be more intuitive and/or easier to learn.

That is down to personal preference. I don't think I could ever really enjoy MTG as much as any wargame because I'm too much a fan of the hobby and campaign aspects of the game.

I might as well respond to this one as well. It's only polite.

Makumba wrote:
The difference is , other then some guy going around with a few k$ deck around him, is that at worse I spent around 100$ for my deck, if I only started MtG and the dude with the "Vintage" deck spend thousands. Even if I quit now I lost "only" around 100 bucks. Probably less if I traded stuff or bought commons from the draft/left over box at a FLGS. In w40k I spend just as much as the "TFG" on my army , where the books alone double or triple the cost of noob MtG deck, and the army may never win just because GW decide to write a sucky codex for it.

It is impossible to play w40k out of the box like a draft tournament. You need to house rule stuff otherwise the game is unplayable.

I have been made aware from your posting history that you are quite a competitive player. As such, you are completely correct. 40k is not a game that does well in a tournament environment with winning the game being the primary objective. I've never been too worried about winning or losing. I prefer to just have fun while playing, preferably some kind of weird home made mission that has something to do with the backstory of our armies.

40k has horrible rules. Games Workshop has really questionable business practices. I said this before. I am not a "GW white knight". I just get really tired of people saying how completely and irredeemably bad 40k is, and how it is "unplayable" to the point that it sounds like nobody sane could ever actually have fun while playing it. I disagree and I don't think that kind of opinion is justified.

Some people play the game.

Some people play the rules.

 UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Some people play the game.

Some people play the rules.

true, and some people play their opponent.

And some don't play. It's more than a game to them.

 Tehjonny wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Unfortunately, every hobby has the issue of unfortunate personalities.

I would have said:

"congratulations, you have won on easy mode, as usual"

Or something like that. Because effectively, that is what he is doing. What bugs me though, is how much people tolerate this. I would condemn this person every time I see him, not for his playstyle, but for his attitude and demeanor. Its simply disrespectful to those who share the same pass time as you do. All because he has some sick need to feel better about himself.

I dont know the full situation. But thats generally how I feel about those people. Its a pity to see.

Got a guy in our group who brings a titan to 2000 pt games and I refuse to play against it. Game ruiner, absolutely pointless. Just getting shot to pieces over the space of a few turns, trying to enjoy your movement phase as much as possible :p.

Honestly, I don't get it. Why bring one of these things to a normal game?

I think you fail to realize something about 40k post-"December to remember"....that IS a normal game now.