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 Kilkrazy wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Heap shame, oppression and poverty on people

then when they finally lash out, talk about how they've proven correct everything that's said about them and use it to avoid at all costs discussing the issues at the heart of the problem.

It's a neat trick.

Please tell me how shame, oppression and poverty were forced upon them?

The heritage of slavery, the repression of the pre-civil rights era, the less overt racist discrimination of the post-civil rights era, low quality public education, a racist heavily armed police force, attacks on and criticism of people on welfare, cuts in welfare public services and social infrastructure in favour of privatised solutions available only to the better off, the transfer of high quality industrial jobs to China, the transfer of medium quality assembly jobs to Mexico, the undercutting of low quality "MacJob" wages by illegal immigrants, the attack on voting rights under the guise of fraud prevention...

Apart from that, not much.

So... all that justifies the rioting? Got it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Heap shame, oppression and poverty on people

then when they finally lash out, talk about how they've proven correct everything that's said about them and use it to avoid at all costs discussing the issues at the heart of the problem.

It's a neat trick.

Please tell me how shame, oppression and poverty were forced upon them?

The heritage of slavery, the repression of the pre-civil rights era, the less overt racist discrimination of the post-civil rights era, low quality public education, a racist heavily armed police force, attacks on and criticism of people on welfare, cuts in welfare public services and social infrastructure in favour of privatised solutions available only to the better off, the transfer of high quality industrial jobs to China, the transfer of medium quality assembly jobs to Mexico, the undercutting of low quality "MacJob" wages by illegal immigrants, the attack on voting rights under the guise of fraud prevention...

Apart from that, not much.

Something something I never got nothing

Something something bootstrap

Something something white priviledge

Something something reverse racism

Something something thread lock

Just saying.

So you have nothing to add. Got it.

As an aside, can I say I find it hilarious that people complain in this thread about how militarized the police are getting, but in the Guardians of the Galaxy thread they were complaining about the Nova Corps (Police) not being well enough equipped?

Which is it, Dakka?

Hey, people wanted more government. Now they got it. A militarized police force can't be good for a Democratic government.

It's a pretty sensationalized article, but it does have some interesting points:

http://www.salon.com/2012/09/28/nine_terrifying_facts_about_americas_biggest_police_force/

The NYPD is the biggest police force in the country, with over 34,000 uniformed officers patrolling New York’s streets, and 51,000 employees overall — more than the FBI. It has a proposed budget of $4.6 billion for 2013, a figure that represents almost 15 percent of the entire city’s budget.

NYC’s population is a little over 8 million. That means that there are 4.18 police officers per 1,000 people. By comparison, Los Angeles, the second largest city in the U.S. with 3.8 million people, has only 9,895 officers–a ratio of 2.6 police per 1,000 people.

Last fall, Mayor Bloomberg famously bragged, ”I have my own army in the NYPD, which is the seventh biggest army in the world.”
...
Police Commissioner Ray Kelly told “60 Minutes” that the NYPD could shoot down a plane last year. When asked for details at a press conference, Mayor Bloomberg basically told reporters to feth off, saying, “The NYPD has lots of capabilities that you don’t know about and you won’t know about.”
...
Militaristic “Hercules teams,” are deployed to random parts of the city armed with automatic weapons and body armor. Their explicitly stated role is to terrify people. In a piece by Popular Mechanics, detective Abad Nieves described the unit’s job thusly: “The response we usually get is, ‘Holy s—!’ [...] That’s the reaction we want. We are in the business of scaring people–we just want to scare the right people.”

NYPD officers have flown to Afghanistan, Egypt, Yemen, Pakistan, and Guantanamo, where they have been known to conduct “special interrogations,”

And many many more...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Heap shame, oppression and poverty on people

then when they finally lash out, talk about how they've proven correct everything that's said about them and use it to avoid at all costs discussing the issues at the heart of the problem.

It's a neat trick.

Please tell me how shame, oppression and poverty were forced upon them?

The heritage of slavery, the repression of the pre-civil rights era, the less overt racist discrimination of the post-civil rights era, low quality public education, a racist heavily armed police force, attacks on and criticism of people on welfare, cuts in welfare public services and social infrastructure in favour of privatised solutions available only to the better off, the transfer of high quality industrial jobs to China, the transfer of medium quality assembly jobs to Mexico, the undercutting of low quality "MacJob" wages by illegal immigrants, the attack on voting rights under the guise of fraud prevention...

Apart from that, not much.

Something something I never got nothing

Something something bootstrap

Something something white priviledge

Something something reverse racism

Something something thread lock

Just saying.

So you have nothing to add. Got it.

Nothing that hasn't been covered in every other past thread covering race/poverty/social justice. Every one of which I have adequately summarized above.

 Easy E wrote:

 The Hedge Knight wrote:
People are complaining about police overreach with the APC (which makes complete sense seeing as cars have already been destroyed) and in response they want the national guard to be mobilized in order to bring order to these protests.

I'm really glad DakkaDakka doesn't run the world O.o

No, what I am saying is there is no need to militarize police to the National Guard level themselves.

If the Police need to respond with military style deployment and tactics, let's just call in the actual military.

I hope you can see the difference in the arguments.

Agreed.

 d-usa wrote:

Nothing that hasn't been covered in every other past thread covering race/poverty/social justice. Every one of which I have adequately summarized above.

You see... I'm 15 minutes away from this.

I've driven around and talked to some of my friends in the area.

My ass is glued to my local news cast and local social media.

Here's some of the problems that I see:

1) The police's response is ridiculous. C'mon... snipers? SWAT?

2) The Ferguson residence and local leaders WANT peaceful protest. They SHOULD have a forum to protest. But, it's being co-opted by outsider that seems to being doing the best the fan the tension.

3) We have the Black Panther crew here...

4) Apparent, some communist group from Chicago is here...

5) There's way too many folks justifying the violence and looting.

6) The national media is over sensationalizing this... that it's absurd. You'd think that's a KKK klansmen at every other house.

7) Let me repeat, the local resident want peaceful protests... it's the outsiders that appears to be fanning the tension.

7) Let me repeat, the local resident want peaceful protests... it's the outsiders that appears to be fanning the tension.

Often the case. is Al Sharpton still there?

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

Nothing that hasn't been covered in every other past thread covering race/poverty/social justice. Every one of which I have adequately summarized above.

You see... I'm 15 minutes away from this.

I've driven around and talked to some of my friends in the area.

My ass is glued to my local news cast and local social media.

Here's some of the problems that I see:

1) The police's response is ridiculous. C'mon... snipers? SWAT?

2) The Ferguson residence and local leaders WANT peaceful protest. They SHOULD have a forum to protest. But, it's being co-opted by outsider that seems to being doing the best the fan the tension.

3) We have the Black Panther crew here...

4) Apparent, some communist group from Chicago is here...

5) There's way too many folks justifying the violence and looting.

6) The national media is over sensationalizing this... that it's absurd. You'd think that's a KKK klansmen at every other house.

7) Let me repeat, the local resident want peaceful protests... it's the outsiders that appears to be fanning the tension.

Awesome response. Points 1 through 7 really did a wonderful job addressing the responses made to your comment of "who forced them to be poor and oppressed". I really appreciated the thoughtfulness of the argument that explained how "Ferguson residents WANT peaceful protests" addresses potential social inequalities that may be present. And the revelation of "the Black Panther crew is here" was a thorough expose on the hiring system that may be present which resulted in a predominantly white police force patrolling a predominantly black city.

I don't think he was addressing your post.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 The Hedge Knight wrote:
People are complaining about police overreach with the APC (which makes complete sense seeing as cars have already been destroyed) and in response they want the national guard to be mobilized in order to bring order to these protests.

I'm really glad DakkaDakka doesn't run the world O.o

No, what I am saying is there is no need to militarize police to the National Guard level themselves.

If the Police need to respond with military style deployment and tactics, let's just call in the actual military.

I hope you can see the difference in the arguments.

Agreed.

More to the point, in many situations there is no need for the police to militarize or for the national Guard to be called out. Both are over-reactions in most cases.

The national Guard is not a police force. They are not trained to be police, they are not trained to use they're force in the same measure as police.. The national guard is a military unit and deploying the military against a country's own citizens should always be an option of last resort.

That is not to say that at some point they might not be called into Fergusson. However if it continues to escalate to that point, then the Fergusson police will deserve at least some of the blame for getting the ball rolling that direction with a very forceful kick.

d-usa.

It's all a distraction to the issue at hand.

That is getting all the facts to the death of Mike Brown.

 d-usa wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

Nothing that hasn't been covered in every other past thread covering race/poverty/social justice. Every one of which I have adequately summarized above.

You see... I'm 15 minutes away from this.

I've driven around and talked to some of my friends in the area.

My ass is glued to my local news cast and local social media.

Here's some of the problems that I see:

1) The police's response is ridiculous. C'mon... snipers? SWAT?

2) The Ferguson residence and local leaders WANT peaceful protest. They SHOULD have a forum to protest. But, it's being co-opted by outsider that seems to being doing the best the fan the tension.

3) We have the Black Panther crew here...

4) Apparent, some communist group from Chicago is here...

5) There's way too many folks justifying the violence and looting.

6) The national media is over sensationalizing this... that it's absurd. You'd think that's a KKK klansmen at every other house.

7) Let me repeat, the local resident want peaceful protests... it's the outsiders that appears to be fanning the tension.

Awesome response. Points 1 through 7 really did a wonderful job addressing the responses made to your comment of "who forced them to be poor and oppressed".

Don't you know d... bootstrap it man!

I really appreciated the thoughtfulness of the argument that explained how "Ferguson residents WANT peaceful protests" addresses potential social inequalities that may be present.

Irrelavent. The protesters are there for Mike Brown's family wanting Justice. It wasn't a reaction to the social ills in that community.

And the revelation of "the Black Panther crew is here" was a thorough expose on the hiring system that may be present which resulted in a predominantly white police force patrolling a predominantly black city.

How about you wait for the information on the hiring practice these police forces have today before making an oblique statement.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

7) Let me repeat, the local resident want peaceful protests... it's the outsiders that appears to be fanning the tension.

Often the case. is Al Sharpton still there?

Does it matter? Should he not be there?

Al Sharpton ( I don't know if he's involved) and other black leaders such as Jacksonare often targeted and vilified for their activism, but it should be remembered that they often invited into situations such as these by locals. Clearly they are divisive figures (but so is the Speaker of the House…), but they are respected by many african american communities because of the abilities of these personalities to bring national attention to injustices and situations that might otherwise go unnoticed or un-reported.

I've got my own issues with some of these characters, but when I see the incredible venom directed at folks like Jackson and Sharpton, I wonder if those saying such things really understand the role that these figures play and the esteem they have in many of the communities that support them. This is a total judgement call on my part, but when I read the kind of things that seem to pop up on the interwebs (unfortuantely reposted by certain of my relatives on facebook) much of the time it just seems to me like those attacking them are just a bit too happy to have a couple of black leaders they can focus their frustration/hate/anger on. Frazzled, note that I'm not accusing you of such behavior or motivation.

 Eilif wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

7) Let me repeat, the local resident want peaceful protests... it's the outsiders that appears to be fanning the tension.

Often the case. is Al Sharpton still there?

Al Sharpton ( I don't know if he's involved) and other black leaders such as Jacksonare often targeted and vilified by the right, but it should be remembered that they often invited into situations such as these by locals. Clearly they are divisive figures (but so is the Speaker of the House…), but they are respected by many african american communities because of the abilities of these personalities to bring national attention to injustices and situations that might otherwise go unnoticed or un-reported.

I've got my own issues with some of these characters, but when I see the incredible venom directed at folks like Jackson and Sharpton, I wonder if those saying such things really understand the role that these figures play and the esteem they have in many of the communities that support them. This is a total judgement call on my part, but when I read the kind of things that seem to pop up on the interwebs (unfortuantely reposted by certain of my relatives on facebook) much of the time it just seems to me like those attacking them are just a bit too happy to have a couple of black leaders they can focus their frustration/hate/anger on.

Frazzled, note that I'm not accusing you of such behavior.

Sharpton is here...

Many of the local clergy/civic leaders here in Ferguson implored Sharpton to stay home. Not sure who asked him to come... maybe the Brown family's attorney?

*shrug* all he did was made a few speeches so far.

 whembly wrote:
Not sure who asked him to come... maybe the Brown family's attorney?

*shrug* all he did was made a few speeches so far.

I'm fairly certain he summons himself.

Looks like the STL County Police are getting pulled from Ferguson.

http://rt.com/usa/180360-police-louis-policing-ferguson/

Another source - http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/08/14/St-Louis-County-police-pulled-out-of-situation-in-Ferguson/3911408027695/?spt=sec&or=tn

The governor of Missouri will reportedly relieve St. Louis County law enforcement from policing the ongoing demonstrations in the town of Ferguson, paving the way for possible state or federal intervention.

Rep Wm. Lacy Clay (D-Missouri told Bloomberg News on Thursday morning that Gov. Jay Nixon, also a Democrat, had confirmed to him that county police will be pulled from their duties in Ferguson, where outrage continues to erupt following the officer-involved shooting and killing of Michael Brown, an 18-year-old unarmed teenager, on Saturday.

On Wednesday evening, protests in Ferguson for the fourth straight day appeared to resemble a war zone when militarized police began firing tear gas and non-lethal ammunition into the streets towards private residences. Two journalists, one from Washington Post and another from Huffington Post, were briefly detained while on assignment.

“The gov. just called me and he’s on his way to St. Louis now to announce he’s taking St. Louis County police out of the situation,” Rep. Clay told Derek Wallbank, a reporter for Bloomberg, early Wednesday.

According to Wallbank’s Twitter account, Gov. Nixon neglected to tell Rep. Clay if state police or the Federal Bureau of Investigation would take control of the situation.

The FBI has previously acknowledged that it is investigating Saturday’s shooting death, and Rep. Clay issued a statement on Monday with other members of Congress urging federal agents to expand their probe.

“In light of the foregoing developments, we ask the Department of Justice to investigate the shooting of Michael Brown, looking at both the facts of the specific incident as well as the potential for any pattern or practice of police misconduct by the Ferguson Police Department," reads a portion of the statement, signed by Reps. Clay, John Conyers (D-Michigan) and Marsha Fudge (D-Ohio).

NG coming?

I think they're in a weird place where there is no good option. mega_bassit? We might be crashing at your place soon.

I'll bring my 40k stuff...

And the beer... mostly beer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Not sure who asked him to come... maybe the Brown family's attorney?

*shrug* all he did was made a few speeches so far.

I'm fairly certain he summons himself.

You're probably right.

 mitch_rifle wrote:

Has it come too far?, or were the police just underequiped and undertrained in the past?

When it comes to things like Organized Crime (mafia, gangs, etc) the police have ALWAYS been under equipped. For situations like this, they are no longer under trained, as we've had enough riots in the past to kind of know what to do/how to do it.

The "problem" has become that there is a huge grey area between organized crime/using tacticool toys on THEM, and quelling riots and the like. And as a result we see the tacticool stuff come out far earlier than it's probably needed, and in situations where it will do more harm than good.

 whembly wrote:


NG coming?

I think they're in a weird place where there is no good option. mega_bassit? We might be crashing at your place soon.

I'll bring my 40k stuff...

And the beer... mostly beer.

That was my first thought, too.

And I'm okay with this! But be prepared to share the living room with a German Shepherd and an donkey-cave cat

 mega_bassist wrote:

 whembly wrote:


NG coming?

I think they're in a weird place where there is no good option. mega_bassit? We might be crashing at your place soon.

I'll bring my 40k stuff...

And the beer... mostly beer.

That was my first thought, too.

And I'm okay with this! But be prepared to share the living room with a German Shepherd and an donkey-cave cat

Whembly, don't "pay" too much for the beer

 whembly wrote:

Sharpton is here...

Many of the local clergy/civic leaders here in Ferguson implored Sharpton to stay home. Not sure who asked him to come... maybe the Brown family's attorney?

*shrug* all he did was made a few speeches so far.

Good to know. I looked around and I'm not sure who invited him, but it looks like it was the family who invited him and/or have been associating with him publicly.

It's definitely a mixed bag.

I can see that police departments might very well have situations where all the tacticool stuff may be necessary. SWAT teams have existed for a long time and they have valid reasons to use all this equipment. But it does seem like it is used by more and more people (not just the SWAT team, but line-officers as well) and for more and more reasons.

I do think a part of the problem is just the availability of the gear:

1) We now have more gear available to departments because of anti-terrorism funding grants and the military getting rid of equipment.

2) Police Departments then think "hey, they are giving this stuff away, might as well see if we can get some of it". I used to be part of the fire department. We did the same thing. Every grant cycle you write grants to see if you could get something, because if they are giving away free stuff it might as well come to you.

3) Once police department get the gear they start going "well, we got this stuff. Might as well use it." Maybe they just want to see the tax-payers what they paid for, or maybe it's just a mindset of "we have to use it to justify buying it". So they may end up using tactical gear for stuff that they would have never used tactical gear before. Or they might go "hey, we have this weird tear-gas grenade & water cannon APC that we got from DHS. This might be a good excuse to take it out for a spin. Wanna water some protesters?"

 Eilif wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

7) Let me repeat, the local resident want peaceful protests... it's the outsiders that appears to be fanning the tension.

Often the case. is Al Sharpton still there?

Does it matter? Should he not be there?

Al Sharpton ( I don't know if he's involved) and other black leaders such as Jacksonare often targeted and vilified for their activism, but it should be remembered that they often invited into situations such as these by locals. Clearly they are divisive figures (but so is the Speaker of the House…), but they are respected by many african american communities because of the abilities of these personalities to bring national attention to injustices and situations that might otherwise go unnoticed or un-reported.

I've got my own issues with some of these characters, but when I see the incredible venom directed at folks like Jackson and Sharpton, I wonder if those saying such things really understand the role that these figures play and the esteem they have in many of the communities that support them. This is a total judgement call on my part, but when I read the kind of things that seem to pop up on the interwebs (unfortuantely reposted by certain of my relatives on facebook) much of the time it just seems to me like those attacking them are just a bit too happy to have a couple of black leaders they can focus their frustration/hate/anger on. Frazzled, note that I'm not accusing you of such behavior or motivation.

It always matters when a fraudulent race baiter jumps into the mix.

Obama just made a statement talking out against violent protesters/looters, Police abusing their powers, and saying that this a time for "healing". The MO governor is going to Ferguson to start working personally with the issues.

 Frazzled wrote:

It always matters when a fraudulent race baiter jumps into the mix.

Sharpton is no saint, but his purpose is to draw attention to situations of injustice, usually concerning African Americans.

Frazzled, usually you make alot of good points, but I wouldn't have thought that you would throw that term around. The label of "race baiter" is what conservatives call African American leaders who point out race issues. It's a term that is designed to shut down discussion and it makes it easier for their constituencies (usually white conservatives) to ignore what they are saying even -perhaps especially- when what they say contains some truth. One can't make the situation any less racially charged by labeling one of the national personalities speaking out about it a "Race Baiter" nor does that do anything to encourage communication and reconciliation.

It's not race-bating when race is an extremely important part of what is happening in Ferguson.

 Eilif wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

It always matters when a fraudulent race baiter jumps into the mix.

Sharpton is no saint, but his purpose is to draw attention to situations of injustice, usually concerning African Americans.

His purpose is to make money race baiting -even using fraud to do it (Brawley case), and occasionally narc on other people to the FBI.

Aw jeez... folks are clamoring for Martial Law...
http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/congressman-and-civil-rights-leader-john-lewis-declare-marti#1005hy9

Um... how, 'bout... 'feth no?

Use live rounds. Riot ends in seconds.

Would it help to hav ea Federal 3rd Party organization look into the case?

Would that tap down some of the concerns of a cover-up/white-wash occurring?

To the thread: please remember that the last thread had to be locked due to comments crossing the line about racism, and also comments advocating violence- please try not to cause the same result here. Thanks.

 Eilif wrote:


It's not race-bating when race is an extremely important part of what is happening in Ferguson.

it most certainly IS race baiting, because that is exactly what sharpton is doing. When cops shoot unarmed white people, there is no rioting, and no insistence that its because all cops are racist(which is a statement that infers all white people are racist, and homogenizes cops),
even when its a black cop shooting an unarmed white person and its based on race, as we saw when the white ex military guy was shot to death in cold blood by a black LEO for using a racial slur, its not "racist" nor is it "ok you have blanket permission to riot, loot, and commit various crimes now" moment.

the FACTS of the matter are still being decided in court,

but it is 100% inappropriate to form unruly mobs that burn down innocent peoples livelyhoods, even IF its proven to be a racially motivated shooting, which it hasnt yet.

if sharpton wasnt race baiting, he would be all over decrying it every time a black man shoots another unarmed (insert any race here),

as it is, this is now trial by mob, guilty until proven innocent, and heaven forbid they release the cops name, because even if he is 100% innocent, verifiably so, his life would be over as he knows it, if not literally ended by the next member of the mob he meets that has made up their mind to avenge the kid he shot.

I certainly dont think there are no racial issues, but to assert all cops are racist, and shoot black people in situations where they wouldnt shoot white people AS A RULE in this day and age, needs some actual proof, none has been given.

sure racist white cops have shot innocent black people, but racist black cops have also shot innocent whites...but neither do it AS A RULE. If we are going to argue on the pretense that every shooting of a black person, by a white person, is racially motivated, then you would have to also treat every time a black person shoots anyone who isnt black as racist as well.