Violent protest erupts in Ferguson, MO over deadly police shooting

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**Eilif**

I'm also not bothered by the second photo. It's going to look "thug'ish" to folks who don't know, but the truth is that it's pretty normal street wear for alot of kids. I'm not down with the hand signs in his neighborhood, but he could as easily be representing a neighborhood as a gang.

The average person probably couldn't tell the difference between a gang banger and a star basketball player if they saw them on the streets. I've been here 10 years and I can't.

All this to say, I don't find the picture to be particularly prejudicial.

**Jihadin**

Its going to get stupid tonight. Now we have lawyers talking about the entry wound on top the head like an "execution shot" almost

**BrotherGecko**

d-usa wrote:

The national guard is a weird mix of things. They are "military", but they are also part of the community. It's a weird gap between police and military. They get called up frequently to help with disasters, wild fires, floods, etc. So while they push towards the "militarization" aspect of this event, they also have a "we are part of the community and are here to help" role to them. The perception of them is really going to depend on what the actual role is that they will be used for.

Hence they are called Citizen Soldiers. They are citizens that are willing to become soldiers in a time of need.

Also sweet jeebus! One of my home cities (Saginaw) has a Maxxpro? Having ridden in one on combat ops I can honestly say I have zero understanding of why they require one. An MRAPs definitely are not street friendly in the slightest.

Some of these small town police forces have better gear then my battalion does....and we actually fight in warzones. This is honestly extremely disturbing to me.

The bit about police not understanding the concept of escalation of force is spot on. One of the things I keep noticing. They are too keyed up for the kill, it looks like they want what is happening to get the chance to fight. If they wanted to fight they should of joined the military.

**Laemos**

Jihadin wrote:
Now we have lawyers talking about the entry wound on top the head like an "execution shot" almost

Is that legal? They are lawyers and that is slander. Can they be brought before the bar or something?

**sparkywtf**

BrotherGecko wrote:
d-usa wrote:

The national guard is a weird mix of things. They are "military", but they are also part of the community. It's a weird gap between police and military. They get called up frequently to help with disasters, wild fires, floods, etc. So while they push towards the "militarization" aspect of this event, they also have a "we are part of the community and are here to help" role to them. The perception of them is really going to depend on what the actual role is that they will be used for.

Hence they are called Citizen Soldiers. They are citizens that are willing to become soldiers in a time of need.

Also sweet jeebus! One of my home cities (Saginaw) has a Maxxpro? Having ridden in one on combat ops I can honestly say I have zero understanding of why they require one. An MRAPs definitely are not street friendly in the slightest.

Some of these small town police forces have better gear then my battalion does....and we actually fight in warzones. This is honestly extremely disturbing to me.

The bit about police not understanding the concept of escalation of force is spot on. One of the things I keep noticing. They are too keyed up for the kill, it looks like they want what is happening to get the chance to fight. If they wanted to fight they should of joined the military.

1) MRAPs are free to LEO, because DoD doesn't want to pay to keep them in storage. Also, saying there are plenty of people with rifles that people call "high powered", police need something that can withstand getting shot at, most older "armored" SWAT vehicles can't do that. Not saying all gun people are crazy cop killers, but there are some.

2) being a small town police force is almost more dangerous than being an officer in a large city. You are more likely to be alone, and a lot of meth and pot is grown out in the middle of no where. Also, not all the gear you see is free from the government. DoD only gives out free rifles if they have a surplus of old stuck, surplus being only M16s, not newer M4s. Most departments either purchase their own rifles, or allow their officers to supply their own rifle (as long as you can qualify on it.)

3) the concept of escalation of force and training depends on the state. Some are much better than others at training. The real problem is a lot of officers tend to be ex military (see so they aren't just playing soldier, they were one), and the military doesn't exactly train for urban policing in the lower 48. I have had a couple professors (all ex LEO) say that some of the worst cops are the ones that transition from military, because of their previous training.

**d-usa**

Laemos wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Now we have lawyers talking about the entry wound on top the head like an "execution shot" almost
Is that legal? They are lawyers and that is slander. Can they be brought before the bar or something?

Saying "the police officer decided to execute him with a clean shot to the skull" is slander. Anything short of that is really fair game since it describes things, and not that particular person or his actions.

**Hordini**

Kind of a side note, but that reporter who got arrested a few days ago tweeted something facepalm worthy.

**d-usa**

Hordini wrote:
Kind of a side note, but that reporter who got arrested a few days ago tweeted something facepalm worthy.

I hear they absolutely kill your hearing...

**daedalus**

Hordini wrote:
Kind of a side note, but that reporter who got arrested a few days ago tweeted something facepalm worthy.

His comment was not even 1/100th as facepalm worthy as all the responses though. Wowzers.

**CptJake**

sparkywtf wrote:

1) MRAPs are free to LEO, because DoD doesn't want to pay to keep them in storage. Also, saying there are plenty of people with rifles that people call "high powered", police need something that can withstand getting shot at, most older "armored" SWAT vehicles can't do that. Not saying all gun people are crazy cop killers, but there are some.

MRAPs are very expensive to maintain, and 'free' seems to ignore the cost the tax payers pony up to get them back stateside then reconditioned for LEO use. It would be cheaper to blow them in place or sell them for scrap than to pass them to CONUS LE. And, the bottom line is they were designed and built to defeat IEDs and other explosions from the ground upwards. Frankly, that is not a threat most CONUS LE faces, so they are paying a premium for a capability they do not need. They are crappy APCs (poor mobility, too tall for some urban applications, high roll over rate, low OR rate, don't carry a full SWAT team and so on). There are several purpose built vehicles out there that are MUCH better for SWAT use than an MRAP designed to withstand major explosions.

I know I would be pissed if my county burdened me and my fellow tax payers with the upkeep on an MRAP or two.

**cincydooley**

So is it pretty reasonable to expect that the shots to the arm wouldn't stop him? If were assuming they were the first few?

**CptJake**

Depends on what was happening. If the "275+ Big Dude was rushing at him" is accurate, then I would guess, no the first few shots would not drop him to the point the cop firing would realize the kid was no longer a threat. Mass and velocity of the guy would have kept him up and moving forward enough that the cop sees 'threat still up' in the very few seconds it took to fire those rounds. Frankly, the kid, IF he was rushing at the cop, probably could not have stopped himself in that time span once he committed to the rush.

So, it really depends on what the kid was actually doing in relation to the cop.

**Jihadin**

CptJake wrote:
sparkywtf wrote:

1) MRAPs are free to LEO, because DoD doesn't want to pay to keep them in storage. Also, saying there are plenty of people with rifles that people call "high powered", police need something that can withstand getting shot at, most older "armored" SWAT vehicles can't do that. Not saying all gun people are crazy cop killers, but there are some.

MRAPs are very expensive to maintain, and 'free' seems to ignore the cost the tax payers pony up to get them back stateside then reconditioned for LEO use. It would be cheaper to blow them in place or sell them for scrap than to pass them to CONUS LE. And, the bottom line is they were designed and built to defeat IEDs and other explosions from the ground upwards. Frankly, that is not a threat most CONUS LE faces, so they are paying a premium for a capability they do not need. They are crappy APCs (poor mobility, too tall for some urban applications, high roll over rate, low OR rate, don't carry a full SWAT team and so on). There are several purpose built vehicles out there that are MUCH better for SWAT use than an MRAP designed to withstand major explosions.

I know I would be pissed if my county burdened me and my fellow tax payers with the upkeep on an MRAP or two.

Some idiot LEO driver going to flip one crushing the CROW on top

Edit

SPC activated to deal with Ferguson has the impression that the "Mob" has word to leave them the NG alone

And I just notice one LEO has an M16A2, tacticl vest with six clips plus one in the well, Kevlar with NOD mount with series 6 NVG on it.I see no National Guard members formed

Edit II

SPC posted on AKO

**sparkywtf**

CptJake wrote:
sparkywtf wrote:

1) MRAPs are free to LEO, because DoD doesn't want to pay to keep them in storage. Also, saying there are plenty of people with rifles that people call "high powered", police need something that can withstand getting shot at, most older "armored" SWAT vehicles can't do that. Not saying all gun people are crazy cop killers, but there are some.

MRAPs are very expensive to maintain, and 'free' seems to ignore the cost the tax payers pony up to get them back stateside then reconditioned for LEO use. It would be cheaper to blow them in place or sell them for scrap than to pass them to CONUS LE. And, the bottom line is they were designed and built to defeat IEDs and other explosions from the ground upwards. Frankly, that is not a threat most CONUS LE faces, so they are paying a premium for a capability they do not need. They are crappy APCs (poor mobility, too tall for some urban applications, high roll over rate, low OR rate, don't carry a full SWAT team and so on). There are several purpose built vehicles out there that are MUCH better for SWAT use than an MRAP designed to withstand major explosions.

I know I would be pissed if my county burdened me and my fellow tax payers with the upkeep on an MRAP or two.

Free in the sense that DoD said "come pick it up and its yours". And most of them are ones that were only used for training or have never been used, and have never been shipped over seas. While CONUS LE may not need a mine resistant vehicle, there are potential uses for an armored vehicle, and these ones just happen to already be paid for.

**Jihadin**

sparkywtf wrote:
CptJake wrote:
sparkywtf wrote:

1) MRAPs are free to LEO, because DoD doesn't want to pay to keep them in storage. Also, saying there are plenty of people with rifles that people call "high powered", police need something that can withstand getting shot at, most older "armored" SWAT vehicles can't do that. Not saying all gun people are crazy cop killers, but there are some.

MRAPs are very expensive to maintain, and 'free' seems to ignore the cost the tax payers pony up to get them back stateside then reconditioned for LEO use. It would be cheaper to blow them in place or sell them for scrap than to pass them to CONUS LE. And, the bottom line is they were designed and built to defeat IEDs and other explosions from the ground upwards. Frankly, that is not a threat most CONUS LE faces, so they are paying a premium for a capability they do not need. They are crappy APCs (poor mobility, too tall for some urban applications, high roll over rate, low OR rate, don't carry a full SWAT team and so on). There are several purpose built vehicles out there that are MUCH better for SWAT use than an MRAP designed to withstand major explosions.

I know I would be pissed if my county burdened me and my fellow tax payers with the upkeep on an MRAP or two.

Free in the sense that DoD said "come pick it up and its yours". And most of them are ones that were only used for training or have never been used, and have never been shipped over seas. While CONUS LE may not need a mine resistant vehicle, there are potential uses for an armored vehicle, and these ones just happen to already be paid for.

Actually quite a lot are coming back from Afghanistan.. The MRAPS (family) used in Iraq are predisposition in Kuwait. The one's from Afghanistan are being shipped through to Karachi, Pakistan and/or flown out from Bagram, Kandahar, Shindand, and Mazar Sharif heading to Kuwait or Manas.

A good portion of the vehicles are being brought out of the Theater by the Polish, Romanians, and Israel have paid for their own carrier to remove the vehicles they have purchase. The Frag 7 Humvees Israel purchase are being moved overland.

Another good route being used is barges starting in the Black Sea to remove a uparmor LMTV's and other vehicles of those types. The US Airforce is not alone in moving vehicles and equipment. US Military has on contract certain vehicle cargo ships of a huge nature (4 from Japan), Ukraine AN124 contract company (8 total birds and one AN127).

Have to remember these Up Armor vehicles can have their armor remove and replaced with a lighter version armor.

**whembly**

Hordini wrote:
Kind of a side note, but that reporter who got arrested a few days ago tweeted something facepalm worthy.

At least he's there...

Photographer prepared for the night #Ferguson pic.twitter.com/j0lEhjKfom
— Ryan J. Reilly (@ryanjreilly) August 19, 2014

**Jihadin**

Local Community leaders are trying their best to keep a lid on it. If someone gets out of line to start an incident the LEO move in mass and and secure the individual and move back to their lines

Edit

Their giving the local leaders a chance to keep a handle on it

**Asherian Command**

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/michael-brown-shooting-amnesty-international-sends-team-within-us-for-first-time-as-national-guard-deployed-9675149.html

UHhhh

Ruoh

As anger erupted again on the streets of Ferguson, Missouri, a human rights team from Amnesty International worked on the ground in the US for the first time ever.

Confrontation flared up after an autopsy found that Michael Brown, an unarmed teenager who was fatally shot by an officer on 9 August, had suffered at six bullet wounds including one in the top of his head.

Eye-witnesses report seeing police, with no visible ID badges, hurling tear gas and rubber bullets at protesters and threatening members of the press in another night of demonstrations.

Amnesty International, said it would be observing police and protester activity and gathering testimonies as well as training local activists “on methods of non-violent protest” in an “unprecedented” move by the campaigners.

Amnesty International USA's Executive Director, Steven W Hawkins said that the “people of Ferguson have the right to protest peacefully the lack of accountability for Michael Brown’s shooting”.

Jasmine Heiss, one of the 13-strong team sent by Amnesty, told Buzzfeed that the limits placed on the organisation’s access to post-curfew areas was indicative of “the overall lack of transparency in this investigation”.

“Law enforcement, from the FBI to state and local police, are obligated to respect and uphold the human rights of our communities,” Mr Hawkins said in a statement on 14 August.

“The US cannot continue to allow those obligated and duty-bound to protect to become those who their community fears most," said Amnesty International USA's executive director, Steven W. Hawkins.”

The fresh dissidence has led to Jay Nixon, the Governor of the state of Missouri, ordering the deployment of National Guard troops to “protect life and property”, he said in a statement this morning.

The military will, he says, will “maintain peace and order” by closing streets and thoroughfares, if it must, after the events that have unfolded have “continued to create conditions of distress and hazard to the safety, welfare and property of the citizens of the community beyond the capacities of local jurisdiction”.

READ MORE: MISSOURI GOVERNOR ‘THUNDERSTRUCK’ BY IMAGES
CHAOS ERUPTS ON THE STREETS OF FERGUSON AFTER AUTOPSY REPORT
HOW RACIAL STEREOTYPING CAN LEAD TO MURDER

Relations between protesters and police quickly deteriorated yesterday as a second night under curfew began, following the State of Emergency that was declared on Saturday.

Officers say they were responding to gunfire, looting, vandalism and the hurling of Molotov cocktails at them, with at least two people wounded.

"Based on the conditions, I had no alternative but to elevate the level of response," said Captain Ron Johnson, from the Missouri Highway Patrol.

A number of journalists present at the clash in the early hours of this morning reported being threatened with tear gas if they didn’t move, as they were shepherded away from the media enclosure.

Complex Magazine said that police had opened fire into the crowds without warning three hours before the midnight curfew began, causing some children and members of the media to be hit with tear gas and rubber bullets.

Two black journalists from Complex also said that they had been racially profiled, being refused re-entry into the press area whereas white members of the press had been.

While tensions ran high in Missouri, another demonstration in Los Angeles, 1,800 miles away, saw 500 people congregate outside police headquarters to protest the fatal shooting of another unarmed black man, who was killed 11 August.

Ezell Ford, 25, died in hospital after being shot by an LAPD officer – Ford’s family say he had been cooperating with police and was lying on the ground when hit, however police say that Ford was trying to grab one of their guns, according to Reuters.

**cincydooley**

I mean, it's pretty clear at this point that the "eyewitness" accounts are worthless considering the initial one stated that brown was shot while his hands were up and he was surrendering.

This thing is a fething mess, and it's not going to get any better because no one in the community has any reason, at this point, to tell the actual truth.

**Asherian Command**

cincydooley wrote:
I mean, it's pretty clear at this point that the "eyewitness" accounts are worthless considering the initial one stated that brown was shot while his hands were up and he was surrendering.

This thing is a fething mess, and it's not going to get any better because no one in the community has any reason, at this point, to tell the actual truth.

I think neither side will. Do we trust the people who were at fault or who cause the whole mess and escalated it?

I can't believe what is going shesh. I feel really sorry for those poor people who are just so scared of the police and the whole bloody situation.

**cincydooley**

I feel sorry for the people that are forced to be scared of the looters and rioters.

**Asherian Command**

cincydooley wrote:
I feel sorry for the people that are forced to be scared of the looters and rioters.

Agreed. Those poor peeps.

**Jehan-reznor**

cincydooley wrote:
I feel sorry for the people that are forced to be scared of the looters and rioters.

What about the riots when the officer in question gets out of court scot free?

**Steve steveson**

Asherian Command wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/michael-brown-shooting-amnesty-international-sends-team-within-us-for-first-time-as-national-guard-deployed-9675149.html

UHhhh

Ruoh

Amnesty International USA's Executive Director, Steven W Hawkins said that the “people of Ferguson have the right to protest peacefully the lack of accountability for Michael Brown’s shooting”.

Jasmine Heiss, one of the 13-strong team sent by Amnesty, told Buzzfeed that the limits placed on the organisation’s access to post-curfew areas was indicative of “the overall lack of transparency in this investigation”.

“Law enforcement, from the FBI to state and local police, are obligated to respect and uphold the human rights of our communities,” Mr Hawkins said in a statement on 14 August.

“The US cannot continue to allow those obligated and duty-bound to protect to become those who their community fears most," said Amnesty International USA's executive director, Steven W. Hawkins.”

I have a great deal of respect for Amnesty, but they don't half stick their oar in and stir things up sometimes. It has been just over a week. There has been violence and rioting. The officer involved has been suspended pending an investigation, and they are talking about lack of accountability. What they are asking for is summary justice. Investigations take time and due process must be observed. They are making an assumption that nothing will be done and stoking the idea that not releasing information in to the public domain is the same as not being transparent.

There are questions to be anserd by the police across the US, but groups like amnesty should be more measured than this. Personally I don't think this has anything to do with race, more to do with the paramilitary attitude some police in the US seem to have and groups like the lawyers and NGO's sturing the pot like this just muddy the issue.

**CptJake**

Asherian Command wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
I feel sorry for the people that are forced to be scared of the looters and rioters.

Agreed. Those poor peeps.

I feel for the poor business owners who have had their businesses looted and or burnt down. I suspect at least some will either be unable to afford or just choose not to rebuild/re-open making the neighborhood that much poorer.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:
sparkywtf wrote:
CptJake wrote:
sparkywtf wrote:

1) MRAPs are free to LEO, because DoD doesn't want to pay to keep them in storage. Also, saying there are plenty of people with rifles that people call "high powered", police need something that can withstand getting shot at, most older "armored" SWAT vehicles can't do that. Not saying all gun people are crazy cop killers, but there are some.

MRAPs are very expensive to maintain, and 'free' seems to ignore the cost the tax payers pony up to get them back stateside then reconditioned for LEO use. It would be cheaper to blow them in place or sell them for scrap than to pass them to CONUS LE. And, the bottom line is they were designed and built to defeat IEDs and other explosions from the ground upwards. Frankly, that is not a threat most CONUS LE faces, so they are paying a premium for a capability they do not need. They are crappy APCs (poor mobility, too tall for some urban applications, high roll over rate, low OR rate, don't carry a full SWAT team and so on). There are several purpose built vehicles out there that are MUCH better for SWAT use than an MRAP designed to withstand major explosions.

I know I would be pissed if my county burdened me and my fellow tax payers with the upkeep on an MRAP or two.

Free in the sense that DoD said "come pick it up and its yours". And most of them are ones that were only used for training or have never been used, and have never been shipped over seas. While CONUS LE may not need a mine resistant vehicle, there are potential uses for an armored vehicle, and these ones just happen to already be paid for.

Actually quite a lot are coming back from Afghanistan.. The MRAPS (family) used in Iraq are predisposition in Kuwait. The one's from Afghanistan are being shipped through to Karachi, Pakistan and/or flown out from Bagram, Kandahar, Shindand, and Mazar Sharif heading to Kuwait or Manas.

A good portion of the vehicles are being brought out of the Theater by the Polish, Romanians, and Israel have paid for their own carrier to remove the vehicles they have purchase. The Frag 7 Humvees Israel purchase are being moved overland.

Another good route being used is barges starting in the Black Sea to remove a uparmor LMTV's and other vehicles of those types. The US Airforce is not alone in moving vehicles and equipment. US Military has on contract certain vehicle cargo ships of a huge nature (4 from Japan), Ukraine AN124 contract company (8 total birds and one AN127).

Have to remember these Up Armor vehicles can have their armor remove and replaced with a lighter version armor.

Yep, I know a guy who was in the agency that got the first one to go to a CONUS LE agency. It has had transmission problems, leaves puddles of oil everywhere, and is a mess. Came from overseas. But it looks cool!

**d-usa**

So about the whole "violent criminal" thing...

Will be interesting to see what the development will be on that one. From what I have read this morning it seems like the video released may have been incomplete and another video actually shows him paying at the counter. The store never called 911 to report a theft either.

So we will see.

**whembly**

d-usa wrote:
So about the whole "violent criminal" thing...

Will be interesting to see what the development will be on that one. From what I have read this morning it seems like the video released may have been incomplete and another video actually shows him paying at the counter. The store never called 911 to report a theft either.

So we will see.

Source? I don't see anything remotely close to that...

This is sorta a bombshell:

Police sources tell me more than a dozen witnesses have corroborated cop's version of events in shooting #Ferguson
— Christine Byers (@ChristineDByers) August 19, 2014

**CptJake**

Assuming Brown did pay, does that negate the obvious assault in the portion of the video we have seen? Would someone who does that not be correctly described as 'violent', and since assault is criminal, well, maybe the label would still fit?

**cincydooley**

I'll be honest: I have a really hard time believing a video of the full incident doesn't exist. People tape EVERYTHING with their phones these days.

**kronk**

trexmeyer wrote:
His age is irrelevant. He's 6'4" 300. There are occasionally monstrous 14-15 year olds running around that could very well bloody an average adult male and possibly a competent police officer.

From the Little Leage World Series: His name is Erick Figueroa and he's listed at 6-foot-4 and 229 pounds. He's also listed at 13 years old.

To put that in perspective, David Ortiz (who is also known by the moniker "Big Papi") is listed at 6-foot-4 and 230 pounds.

Spoiler:

My only point is that a 6'4" 18-year-old weighing 300 pounds could feth me the hell up.

I hope a video comes out showing the full incident, one way or the other.

Edit: OMG huge picture.