Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There seems to be an issue with the SM vanguard and sternguard squads. According to the lore, sternguard were elite space marines that supported their fellow squads by laying down fire from afar, while vanguard squads would always found in the front of the battle.

However, people slapped on cheap combi-meltas (5 pts each) on sternguard, put them into a drop pod and sucicded them into the front line with often devastating effect.

And vanguard were rarely seen at all.

Games Workshop identified this issues in the 6'ed and increased the combi-melta costs for sternguard to 10 points. However, this just nerfed the squad and did not really fix the issues with how people were using sternguard and not using vanguard.

So here is proposal of mine:

Sternguard (and Sergeant) (22 pts each):
WS BS S T I A LD SV
4 5 4 4 4 2 9 3+
Gear: Power armour, krak/frag grenades, master-crafted boltgun, boltpistol
Special issue ammunition upgrade 3 pts
4 Sternguard may replace their boltgun with:
- Master-crafted Heavy bolter 8 pts
- Master-crafted Multi Melta 10 pts
- Master-crafted Missile Launcher 10 pts
- With Flakk 5 pts
- Master-crafted Plasma Cannon 20 pts
- Master-crafted Lascannon 25 pts
Sergeant may take melta bombs 5 pts
May take drop pod, razorback or rhino as dedicated transport

Vanguard (and Sergeant) (20 pts each):
WS BS S T I A LD SV
5 4 4 4 4 2 9 3+
Gear: Power armour, krak/frag grenades, master-crafted chainsword, boltpistol
The whole squad may take jump packs (3 pts each)
Any Vanguard may buy an boltgun (does not replace any current weapon) 2 pts each
- May upgrade boltgun to comi-weapon 5 pts each
Any Vanguard may replace his chainsword with
- a master-crafted power sword, axe, maul or lightning claw 15 pts
- a pair of master-crafted lightning claws 20 pts
- a master-crafted powerfist 25 pts
Any Vanguard may replace his chainsword or bolt pistol with
- combat shield 2 pts
- storm shield 10 pts
Up to two Vanguards may upgrade his bolt pistol with:
- Plasma pistol 10 pts
- Grav pistol 10 pts
Up to two Vanguards may replace his bolt pistol or chainsword with:
- Flamer 5 pts
Sergeant may take melta bombs 5 pts
May take drop pod, razorback or rhino as dedicated transport

As you see, the sternguard are more akin to a devastator squad, with the option to upgrade to special issue ammunition, their BS has also been increased but so has the point cost.
Vanguard is now WS 5 and given the option to be kitted like an elite squad and has the option take combi-weapons.

I think the above changes makes sense and would compel to use those units more according to the fluff. What do you guys think?

Vanguard Veterans suck because they pay out the nose to get Power Weapons, or Lightning Claws. All this would do is change the name of the Sternguard Squad to Vanguard, and save everyone 5ppm on their squads. They'd lose specialist ammo, but, if you got to live long enough to shoot again after unleashing your plasmas/meltas, that's just a bonus.

It'd be 305pts with your current pricing to get a Drop Pod 'Vanguard' Squad with 10 Combiweapons. Nobody would take the 'Sternguard' Squads because 210pts for 4 BS5 Lascannons isn't a good buy. (245 with a Rhino).

All they need to do to 'fix' Vanguard Veterans, is lower the price they pay for Power Weapons/Fists, Lightning Claws, and Thunder Hammers.

Not until the ig price is lowered

The reason no one fields vanguard vets is because assaulty units are go big or go home units, you wouldn need to take 10+ of them to be powerful. Veteran Assault marines are not 'bad.' Assault marines are not 'bad.' Hell, an assault oriented tactical sergeants aren't 'bad.' rolling 2d6 and getting a 2" is just discouraging. Change charge range in the BRB to d6+6".

Also, give Vanguard vets 5ppm power weapons, 15ppm powerfists, 20ppm thunderhammers. Also, they need +1WS and A. Then a 5 man squad will be worth 95 points without upgrades.

I agree that the BRB should change assault to 6+D6.

5 points for a powerweapon is way out of line with everything else in the codex (or the whole game for that matter).

Dropping from 15 to 5 points is a huge change that I believe would make vanguards almost an auto-include in any army, at cost of other units.

A more balanced and fluffy approach would to make sternguard and vangard main weapons master-crafted. I have now updated this in the original post.

It favors vanguard more since sternguard already hits on 2+, but think it is a step in the right direction while keeping the balance.

5ppm power weapons may be out of line, but the strength with vanguard vets is being able to take them en masse. Unless there was some way to make power weapons viable other than making them cheap, I don't see Vanguard Vets being viable in a competitive environment. Of course, a rule that makes power weapons master-crafted is a start, though.

Set Vanguard to 25 PPM with Power Weapon and Jump Pack. That way you can either go for them or for Honour Guard, trading mobility for survivability. It doesn't matter if Power Weapons normally cost 15 PPM, because that's overpriced. If the status quo is bad, changing the status quo doesn't have to be bad in itself.

Also, give Vanguard vets 5ppm power weapons,

Ok and all other armies get 5pt power weapons I assume? Looking forward to my Sisters having those

 Mr Morden wrote:


Ok and all other armies get 5pt power weapons I assume? Looking forward to my Sisters having those

No offense to MrMorden, but this is what kills a lot of diversity in List Building. Equal point costs for the same equipment across the army and across codices does not create balance. For Space Marines in particular, it raises the point sink on a 1 wound model in a game laden with AP3 and better.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also, give Vanguard vets 5ppm power weapons,

Ok and all other armies get 5pt power weapons I assume? Looking forward to my Sisters having those

On a basic level, why should everyone else have it just because Vanguard Veterans in this example got it? The entire point of the suggestion is to make Vanguard Veterans better because they're currently bad, giving everyone the same buff sort of defeats the purpose.

That said, Seraphim with discounted Power Weapons sounds completely reasonable.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also, give Vanguard vets 5ppm power weapons,

Ok and all other armies get 5pt power weapons I assume? Looking forward to my Sisters having those

On a basic level, why should everyone else have it just because Vanguard Veterans in this example got it? The entire point of the suggestion is to make Vanguard Veterans better because they're currently bad, giving everyone the same buff sort of defeats the purpose.

That said, Seraphim with discounted Power Weapons sounds completely reasonable.

It would be Celestans actaully - they are pretty awfull and supposed to be good in assault - Seraphim work fine as is.....

5pt power weapons is pretty good buff which a variety of units could use.

Equal point costs for the same equipment across the army and across codices does not create balance.

we Don't currently have that - IG have to pay 25pts each for thirs and they (like Sisters) are S3

 Mr Morden wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also, give Vanguard vets 5ppm power weapons,

Ok and all other armies get 5pt power weapons I assume? Looking forward to my Sisters having those

On a basic level, why should everyone else have it just because Vanguard Veterans in this example got it? The entire point of the suggestion is to make Vanguard Veterans better because they're currently bad, giving everyone the same buff sort of defeats the purpose.

That said, Seraphim with discounted Power Weapons sounds completely reasonable.

It would be Celestans actaully - they are pretty awfull and supposed to be good in assault - Seraphim work fine as is.....

5pt power weapons is pretty good buff

Ah, those are the ones, I keep getting Celestians and Seraphim mixed up.

To be fair, I think, as stated above, that Vanguard Veterans should come with Power Weapons as standard. Grey Knight Interceptors have Force Weapons and super-Jump Packs for 24 (IIRC) points, along with a better ranged weapon, whereas Vanguard Veterans have more attacks. I don't see 25 PPM with Jump Pack and Power Weapon as unreasonable at all, especially when compared to Honour Guard (as mentioned above).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:



Ah, those are the ones, I keep getting Celestians and Seraphim mixed up.

To be fair, I think, as stated above, that Vanguard Veterans should come with Power Weapons as standard. Grey Knight Interceptors have Force Weapons and super-Jump Packs for 24 (IIRC) points, along with a better ranged weapon, whereas Vanguard Veterans have more attacks. I don't see 25 PPM with Jump Pack and Power Weapon as unreasonable at all, especially when compared to Honour Guard (as mentioned above).

As far as I know, Interceptors are 26 ppm, not 24.

I still agree though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Set Vanguard to 25 PPM with Power Weapon and Jump Pack. That way you can either go for them or for Honour Guard, trading mobility for survivability. It doesn't matter if Power Weapons normally cost 15 PPM, because that's overpriced. If the status quo is bad, changing the status quo doesn't have to be bad in itself.

I see your point.

But lets not forget that honour guard comes with a cost, you have the include (and pay) for a chapter master, or unlock 3 honour guard squads by taking Calgar, one of the most expensive HQ's in the game. Vanguards has no such restrictions.

I think lowering the cost from 15 to 10 for each master-crafted power weapon might be a balanced option.

Vanguard Veterans need no changes or updates, When I play Space marines I run 10 of them with jump packs armed with relic + shield, twin lightning claws, power sword, power axe and thunder hammer and shield and 2 melta bombs. Add to that a Chapter master with the burning blade, the eternal shield, artificer armour and a lvl2 libby with a force axe and jump pack.

The chapter master goes in the danger zone and try's to tank the shots and the Libby try's for invisibility or endurance. Over all I get comments continuously that its a Deathstar at this point.

Vanguard Vets should be used more, and if they got any of the changes your suggesting they would be too powerful as there already awesome in the right hands.

Hettar wrote:
Vanguard Veterans need no changes or updates, When I play Space marines I run 10 of them with jump packs armed with relic + shield, twin lightning claws, power sword, power axe and thunder hammer and shield and 2 melta bombs. Add to that a Chapter master with the burning blade, the eternal shield, artificer armour and a lvl2 libby with a force axe and jump pack.

The chapter master goes in the danger zone and try's to tank the shots and the Libby try's for invisibility or endurance. Over all I get comments continuously that its a Deathstar at this point.

Vanguard Vets should be used more, and if they got any of the changes your suggesting they would be too powerful as there already awesome in the right hands.

You are dumping ~350 points into the squad with a side of ~365 HQ points! The EW Chapter Master Tank is what makes the squad (a trick copied from Bike-star).

Take a Vanguard Veteran squad without the Chapter Master and you will see how poor it is.

that's actually 265pts of chapter master, and yes its trick, but another word for trick is stratagem......

I also counted the Librarian. I assume he lends some much needed support to make that penguin fly.

Vanguard vets need:

cheaper upgrades. They should be able to get 10 point power weapons, and 7 point pistols.
Option for a banner that gives +1 WS for 15/20pts.

Sternguard need:

To be able to swap their bolters out for stormbolters and not loose special ammo for 3/5pts per model.
The option to purchase a banner that gives preferred enemy for 15/20pts.


These simple changes would make both units excellent options for most lists.

Vanguard should be priced close to Interceptor squads:
25ppm for PA troop with bolt pistol, power weapon, WS5, 2 attacks base. +3 ppm for jump packs.

Sternguard should go up to 25ppm, with BS5 and master crafted bolters base. And add a pinning round to the specialist ammo options. If they want to trade out for a combi-weapon, they lose master crafted. Let Stormbolters use specialist ammo, they just treat rapid fire as assault 2 instead. Swapping out for stormbolter would be a tradeoff- more shots at range vs master crafted.

Vanguard definitely have more of an issue than stern guard and could do with a big overhall and price drop
The main issue IMO is with assault troops in general and the whole triple jepordy of assaulting where you can fail your charge loose a lot of models to shooting or fail a charge due to casualties
I'd give them an immunity to overwatch, although that's something I think all jump pack troops should have

Deinitely not as described. Master-crafted as a rule handed out to rank-and-file squaddies is just annoying because you have to roll every model's shots/attacks seperately. It's the same reason I loathe using sanguinary guard.