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I was working on a list the other day and noticed that once I upgraded my orcs to Big 'Uns, they had the same stats as the Boss that was in the unit with them. So I was wondering. Is there a point in including a boss in a unit of upgraded orcs (who will have a hero leading them)? Does the Boss get upgraded as well, or does he stay the same? If he doesn't, then there's no point in wasting extra points on him. Is this right, or am I missing a rule somewhere in the O&G army book?

Champion can issue and accept challenges
Also I'm pretty sure a boss gets an extra attack

From what I'm looking at, they're the same stats.

Savage Orc Big 'Un:
M4 WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 (additional hand weapon in my case) L7

Savage Orc Boss:
M4 WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2



Add +1 attack for my Big Uns having two hand weapons.

I'm looking at Quartermaster while I'm at work though, and I think it's wrong (it's saying their stats are identical). I think you're right. The boss gets +1 A according to an internet search. Still, It looks like (in my case with the additional hand weapon) you'd just be paying 15 points for to be able to issue/accept challenges. Seems like a missed opportunity to me. I would think that the Boss gets a bump to his WS and A so that he stays above his lesser Orks (he has +1 WS and A over a normal Savage Orc) even though they're Big 'Uns. Does him being a part of a unit with Additional Hand Weapons give him 3 Attacks instead of the 2 he gets by default, also...shouldn't his WS be bumped up +1 as well? I know this all sounds confusing. If anyone has or knows of a solution, can they post it? I know 15 points doesn't sound like a lot...but it's 5 extra vanilla-Night Goblins.

Your savage orc boss would also have an additional hand weapon, because the unit has it, so he would have 3 attacks not 2 (technically with frenzy the orc would have 3 and the boss would have 4) but the point is he has an extra attack,

The challenge part is interesting, for example, if your unit without a charecter gets into combat with a grave guard unit with a vampire blender lord and no other command, if you issue a challenge he either has to waste his attacks killing you (maximum over kill of 5(?) instead of the 10-12 he could do against the unit) OR refuse and you make sure he stands at the back like a little girl and doesn't fit, saving yourself 5-7 minimum on combat res could be the difference between him crumbling or you breaking and loosing your expensive unit.

Just my 2cent

He has +1A (he gets all the equipment they do unless you can specifically give him more) and can challenge.

Well, they'll actually have a Savage Orc Great Shaman with then (a 35 model horde of SO Big Uns). So would it be better to have someone else who could accept the challenges for the shaman?

Exactly, you don't want your squishy wizard going into the combat with chaos lord when you could send in 10 pts of useless demi-hero

therealsuperman wrote:
Exactly, you don't want your squishy wizard going into the combat with chaos lord when you could send in 10 pts of useless demi-hero

It is actually more expensive than that (upgrade to Big 'Un, then pay a standard champion and a half to upgrade to a Boss), but yes it is an insurance policy, albeit more expensive than other armies by a decent amount. (Going from memory on the cost.)

Davall wrote:

therealsuperman wrote:
Exactly, you don't want your squishy wizard going into the combat with chaos lord when you could send in 10 pts of useless demi-hero

It is actually more expensive than that (upgrade to Big 'Un, then pay a standard champion and a half to upgrade to a Boss), but yes it is an insurance policy, albeit more expensive than other armies by a decent amount. (Going from memory on the cost.)

Aaaaactually, the champion upgrade is STILL 10 points. It's a separate upgrade to the Big'Un upgrade. So a champion is still a 10 point demi-hero. Technically.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Davall wrote:

therealsuperman wrote:
Exactly, you don't want your squishy wizard going into the combat with chaos lord when you could send in 10 pts of useless demi-hero

It is actually more expensive than that (upgrade to Big 'Un, then pay a standard champion and a half to upgrade to a Boss), but yes it is an insurance policy, albeit more expensive than other armies by a decent amount. (Going from memory on the cost.)

Aaaaactually, the champion upgrade is STILL 10 points. It's a separate upgrade to the Big'Un upgrade. So a champion is still a 10 point demi-hero. Technically.

Um, no. Every unit that can upgrade to Big 'Uns has a 15 point cost for the champion upgrade. Goblins, who can't become Big 'Uns are 10, while Orcs are 15.

Davall wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Davall wrote:

therealsuperman wrote:
Exactly, you don't want your squishy wizard going into the combat with chaos lord when you could send in 10 pts of useless demi-hero

It is actually more expensive than that (upgrade to Big 'Un, then pay a standard champion and a half to upgrade to a Boss), but yes it is an insurance policy, albeit more expensive than other armies by a decent amount. (Going from memory on the cost.)

Aaaaactually, the champion upgrade is STILL 10 points. It's a separate upgrade to the Big'Un upgrade. So a champion is still a 10 point demi-hero. Technically.

Um, no. Every unit that can upgrade to Big 'Uns has a 15 point cost for the champion upgrade. Goblins, who can't become Big 'Uns are 10, while Orcs are 15.

Never mind. Checked the book.

Yeah, it says right in the picture you've got there, the Boss has A2. The regular Boyz have A1. They all have the same equipment, so they all get an extra attack on top of that.

Also, I wouldn't call a Savage Shaman all that squishy. T5, 5+ Ward, probably WS10 with the Fencer's Blades. Even the possibility of Fists of Gork is enough to make your opponent's characters steer clear of him.

Warpsolution wrote:
Yeah, it says right in the picture you've got there, the Boss has A2. The regular Boyz have A1. They all have the same equipment, so they all get an extra attack on top of that.

Also, I wouldn't call a Savage Shaman all that squishy. T5, 5+ Ward, probably WS10 with the Fencer's Blades. Even the possibility of Fists of Gork is enough to make your opponent's characters steer clear of him.

He's also, arguably, the most important model in your entire army. What with magic edition and the bonus he gives to ward saves.

While he may not be the squishiest wizard out there, he's still not a beat stick. Would you really want to risk a model that important in personal combat with some of the stupid scary things out there?

You're missing my point:

Warpsolution wrote:
Even the possibility of Fists of Gork is enough to make your opponent's characters steer clear of him.

WS10 S7 (or 8 or 9) T5 A6 with a 5+ Ward is pretty damn fearsome.
So I'll take the Boss, but against a fair number of enemy characters...yeah, I'll challenge. Not Saurus Old Bloods on Carnosaurs, and not Vampire Lords and Chaos Lords, but quite a few of the others, yeah.

Warpsolution wrote:
You're missing my point:

Warpsolution wrote:
Even the possibility of Fists of Gork is enough to make your opponent's characters steer clear of him.

WS10 S7 (or 8 or 9) T5 A6 with a 5+ Ward is pretty damn fearsome.
So I'll take the Boss, but against a fair number of enemy characters...yeah, I'll challenge. Not Saurus Old Bloods on Carnosaurs, and not Vampire Lords and Chaos Lords, but quite a few of the others, yeah.

My Dark Elves will take that.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
My Dark Elves will take that.

Yuck. The last thing I want to do on these forums is get into a stupid pissing match. Yes. He's not an invincible character. But if I somehow got into combat with a block of Witches, Guard, or Executioners, I would certainly feel better challenging your champ/characters than letting you direct all those rank and file attacks on him.

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
My Dark Elves will take that.

Yuck. The last thing I want to do on these forums is get into a stupid pissing match. Yes. He's not an invincible character. But if I somehow got into combat with a block of Witches, Guard, or Executioners, I would certainly feel better challenging your champ/characters than letting you direct all those rank and file attacks on him.

You mean those three units I don't have?

The whole point of my statement is that whilst you can turn a champion into a beatstick, some armies already HAVE beatstick champions. I admittedly forgot to point that out. But making a savage orc champion into a combat monster is a waste. Especially considering that you can spam Goblin heroes.

That's...what? Have you...I don't know...read my posts?

I'm talking about the Great Shaman there, big shooter. The champion can't get upgraded to anything except a champion.
I was saying that, if my lvl4 is also going into a huge expensive combat unit, and my lvl4 makes them tougher, I will want to protect him.
So that includes getting the champion upgrade for the unit, and also equipping the lvl4 in such a way that he can take a bit of a beating himself. Far, far more than the average lvl4, anyway.

As for Goblin Bosses...meh. I watched a game between an O&G and Dark Elves. The Elf champions wasted the Bosses. I think they got an extra 150pts or something for it.
But that was with Witches and Black Guard, so I guess your list wouldn't do that. Or whatever.

Seriously, though. Unless the thread is under the Army Lists, Tactics, or Battle Reports section, I couldn't care less about what your army does or doesn't do. That's so far from the point I have to read your post twice before my brain can even accept that, yes, you did indeed say something along the lines of "well, my army could beat yours because I'd just do this..."