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So the idea is we roll them all into a 250+ Page book that will cost $100, and then one has to shell out another $100 for the main rulebook before buying a model.
And yes the Black Templar was a bad choice and now most Black Templar players have either dropped out or are now using "Count As" rules because shoving them into Codex: Space Marines.
Now saying that if they did it I would probably not Stop playing my Space Wolves, I have been playing them since before Codexs were a thing, but now that they have had them out and made them almost nothing like Space Marines it would ruin the game for many of us.
Anpu42 wrote: I see the biggest use with an all Space Marine Codex will be the marginalizing of every Space Marne Chapters.
Everything will become watered down to the point that we might as well just get rid of chapters all together. Space Marines might as well become a giant Multicolored mass of Power Armored Plastic.
Whereas at the moment GW have to keep coming up with increasingly silly "Unique" units and characters to make them "wolffy" or "Blood Guns firing Blood bullets which explode into blood explosions" just to try and make them actually different.
Most Astartes are not and have not been especially different - even Space Wolves in the original incarnation (Book of the Astronomican) were just Marines with a different colour scheme.
A good well thought out those Chapters that don;t follow the Codex as well as one covering the Codex Chapers (as is) could cover the different chapters but not mean we have to suffer all the recent crap stuff.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Lets look at this in a way that won't Marginalize them for some of the units.
Wolf Lord: Just make him a Chapter Master, but to make him a Space Wolf he looses Orbital Bombardment. Now he needs a point cost or add Special Rule to pay for the loss of Orbital Bombardment. Has accesses to Special Wargear that is only available to those who take Chapter Tactics: Space Wolves.
Space Wolf Dreadnaught: Some Space Wolf only Weapons and Rules including the Axe and Shield.
Grey Hunters: Just make them a Tactical Squad, There Chapter Tactics: Space Wolves Removes the use of Heavy Weapons, Adds a second Special Weapon, now has access to the Stormwolf as a Dedicated Transport. The also loose there Sargent and now must buy one, also the can buy a Power Weapon and a Plasma Pistol.
Wolf Scouts: Just make them Wolf Scouts, but they are 1st moved to an Elite Slot and then given the Space Marine Stateline. Then add the ability for 2 of them to take Plasma Pistols or Power Weapons and the ability to take a Special or Heavy Weapon and no Accessed to the Land Speeder Storm.
Blood Claws: There is nothing equivalent, so they would need to be added.
Skyclaws: Take Assault Marines -1 to multiple stats, remove the Sargent and then give the option to by him back, then add the ability to take a Power Weapon.
Swift Claws: See Skyclaws
Thunderwolf Calvary: Must Add.
Fenrisian Wolves: Must Add
Long Fangs: Just make them Devastators, but can only have 2-6 Models, one can be made a WGPL including the option for Terminator Armor.
A couple of those options will just add clunky rules for TFG/WAAC players to manipulate and make things worse than they are now.
The other option is to make them Grey Marines like the rest.
Anpu42 wrote: Lets look at this in a way that won't Marginalize them for some of the units.
Wolf Lord: Just make him a Chapter Master, but to make him a Space Wolf he looses Orbital Bombardment. Now he needs a point cost or add Special Rule to pay for the loss of Orbital Bombardment. Has accesses to Special Wargear that is only available to those who take Chapter Tactics: Space Wolves.
Space Wolf Dreadnaught: Some Space Wolf only Weapons and Rules including the Axe and Shield.
Grey Hunters: Just make them a Tactical Squad, There Chapter Tactics: Space Wolves Removes the use of Heavy Weapons, Adds a second Special Weapon, now has access to the Stormwolf as a Dedicated Transport. The also loose there Sargent and now must buy one, also the can buy a Power Weapon and a Plasma Pistol.
Wolf Scouts: Just make them Wolf Scouts, but they are 1st moved to an Elite Slot and then given the Space Marine Stateline. Then add the ability for 2 of them to take Plasma Pistols or Power Weapons and the ability to take a Special or Heavy Weapon and no Accessed to the Land Speeder Storm.
Blood Claws: There is nothing equivalent, so they would need to be added.
Skyclaws: Take Assault Marines -1 to multiple stats, remove the Sargent and then give the option to by him back, then add the ability to take a Power Weapon.
Swift Claws: See Skyclaws
Thunderwolf Calvary: Must Add.
Fenrisian Wolves: Must Add
Long Fangs: Just make them Devastators, but can only have 2-6 Models, one can be made a WGPL including the option for Terminator Armor.
A couple of those options will just add clunky rules for TFG/WAAC players to manipulate and make things worse than they are now.
The other option is to make them Grey Marines like the rest.
Or alternatively you just make units that will work for SW and other non codex Chapters:
Why exactly does the Wolf Lord not get orbital bombardment and could not be represented by a Chapter Master?
Just give some extra close Combat options for the Dreadnought which would allow the more Specalist /silly variants
Grey Hunters - just give non Codex Tac mariens option for CC weapon
Skyclaws and Blood Calws - just give a option for Jump packs to scouts
Thunderwolf Cavalry and Fenersian Wolves - another example foGW trying to think up stuff to make the Codex unique - just give a Feral beast / Riding beast option for non Codex marines
Long Fangs - Devestators - option to upgrade to Veterans
Chapter Tactics for the various non Codex Chapters
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Don't forget the third option: Let them remain a Codex of their own
Why try to add clunky rules and bend things as much as possible in the first place? Instead of explaining how we could add Space Wolves to the Codex: Space Marines by adding overly complicated rules, removing special things and changing unique rules we would be better off discussing why the hell we would merge them in the first place. Merging those with the original Codex is not only inconvenient for Space Wolves-players, but also for other Space Marine players.
And that is just for one Codex! The same goes for Grey Knights and Dark Angels. My army of Blood Angels would give the same amount of issues: 17 unique entries and tons of special rules and weapons, combined with a gigantic amount of lore. Simply saying that we can remove those things is nothing more than a big "feth you!" to people that play those armies. And why? Because some people feel offended because they have a separate Codex.
But ignoring all that: People have still failed to give a good reason as to why they should be merged.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/16 21:51:06
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Lets see: Cut the Psychic Powers, Shield dread is wargear, Frost weapons can be cut, just power weapons + 1 or instead they can upgrade from power weapon for +X points, can cut the relics, FoC/Formations cut, Bloodclaws are just scouts in power armor, and can upgrade to jump packs, Elite scouts are cut, TWC are a unique unit option, helfrost is a unique chapter weapon.
Cut, cut, cut, cut and cut.
And you still wonder why people dislike the idea of combining codices?
You ask them to cut everything.
To either delay a new codex for a year or have Space Marines redone when they are just a year old.
You ask people to carry around a 250pg book of which they can ignore 75%
And you ask people to pay nearly double the amount of money for stuff they don't need.
And why? Because you don't like it that they have a separate Codex?
How about we put the Chaos Marines in the Space Marine-Codex and just cut their special units and use a Chapter Trait for their Marks? That would be even easier than adding Blood Angels to the Codex: Space Marines!
I've already had CSM cut down, maybe if SM players felt it too they'd start crying out for changes.
Anpu42 wrote: Lets look at this in a way that won't Marginalize them for some of the units.
Wolf Lord: Just make him a Chapter Master, but to make him a Space Wolf he looses Orbital Bombardment. Now he needs a point cost or add Special Rule to pay for the loss of Orbital Bombardment. Has accesses to Special Wargear that is only available to those who take Chapter Tactics: Space Wolves.
Space Wolf Dreadnaught: Some Space Wolf only Weapons and Rules including the Axe and Shield.
Grey Hunters: Just make them a Tactical Squad, There Chapter Tactics: Space Wolves Removes the use of Heavy Weapons, Adds a second Special Weapon, now has access to the Stormwolf as a Dedicated Transport. The also loose there Sargent and now must buy one, also the can buy a Power Weapon and a Plasma Pistol.
Wolf Scouts: Just make them Wolf Scouts, but they are 1st moved to an Elite Slot and then given the Space Marine Stateline. Then add the ability for 2 of them to take Plasma Pistols or Power Weapons and the ability to take a Special or Heavy Weapon and no Accessed to the Land Speeder Storm.
Blood Claws: There is nothing equivalent, so they would need to be added.
Skyclaws: Take Assault Marines -1 to multiple stats, remove the Sargent and then give the option to by him back, then add the ability to take a Power Weapon.
Swift Claws: See Skyclaws
Thunderwolf Calvary: Must Add.
Fenrisian Wolves: Must Add
Long Fangs: Just make them Devastators, but can only have 2-6 Models, one can be made a WGPL including the option for Terminator Armor.
A couple of those options will just add clunky rules for TFG/WAAC players to manipulate and make things worse than they are now.
The other option is to make them Grey Marines like the rest.
Or alternatively you just make units that will work for SW and other non codex Chapters:
Why exactly does the Wolf Lord not get orbital bombardment and could not be represented by a Chapter Master?
>He does not have it as an option.
Just give some extra close Combat options for the Dreadnought which would allow the more Specialist /silly variants
>Which just adds more rules to an already bloated book once you roll in Blood Angels and Dark Angels.
Grey Hunters - just give non Codex Tac Marines option for CC weapon.
>But then they become Tactical Marines, which they are NOT!
Skyclaws and Blood Claws - just give a option for Jump packs to scouts
>So take away there Power Armor?
Thunderwolf Cavalry and Fenrisian Wolves - another example to GW trying to think up stuff to make the Codex unique - just give a Feral beast / Riding beast option for non Codex marines
>Yah…Vulcan riding a giant Fire Breathing Salamander. [Well that actually sound kind of cool]
Long Fangs - Devastators - option to upgrade to Veterans
>They are not Devastators
Chapter Tactics for the various non Codex Chapters
>Well I would love all of the surviving founding Chapters to get there own Dex of some sort.
Have you ever read any of the Codex: Space Wolves Books?
Put all the Space Marines in one codex and give them different chapter tactics, wargear options, and a few special rules and characters. Most of the new supplemental codices have like a page or two of rules. Compiling them all together has worked fine in the past before. The different SM Chapters aren't even that distinct:
BA: Death Company (assault marines with some special rules cause they're crazy), Sanguinary Guard, Baal and Furioso upgrades to existing units
SW: can take big squads of marines with pistols and CC's but nobody actually does cause they suck, Fenrisian Wolves, Wolf Riders, Lone Wolves (weaker versions of HQ's that don't join squads and have a different place on the force org chart)
DA: upgrades to bikes and termies plus alternate org options
BT: Can put scouts and normal marines in 1 squad with CC's and pistols
Other than that, it's the same blokes in power armor, the same vehicles, and the same HQ's with different names and a couple different wargear options.
And half the time people play these chapters as vanilla marines, because the vanilla codex is more competitive and balanced better.
So after adding a small list of special rules for chapters, a small list of chapter specific upgrades to existing units, and a small list of chapter specific special characters, there are maybe three or four unique units left to give rules to. So everything they're now covering in three or four different codices, they could cover in as many pages in a vanilla SM codex. Making all these different codices for practically identical armies saps time and energy away from other, more unique armies that actually need their own books.
Daemons and CSM being put in the same category as all the SM codices isn't really a fair comparison. At least Chaos Daemons and CSM have very different stats and fight very differently from each other. It'd be difficult to cram all those different units and rules into one codex. It's not like the different chapters, where they all have a huge amount of shared units between codices with literally the exact same rules copy pasted. A much better comparison would be the Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter codices. I don't think each CSM faction needs its own codex either, and again they're all nearly identical. Again, each Legion should just have a few unique special rules, wargear options, and special characters.
As a rule of thumb, if the majority of units in a codex are copy pasted, it should go.
But hey, we all know the multiplicity of codices is nothing but a cash grab by GW.
Chapter Tactics, some special rules and wargear-options isn't going to work in these cases!
It makes it too complicated and it would remove too many stuff.
And again another post without refusing to start by giving a good reason as to why they'd need a merge in the first place!
The different SM Chapters aren't even that distinct:
That settles it. You've never read their codices.
Someone actually tried to make a 'Blood Angel Detachment' that would fix many things, it was messy and had a dozen benefits and restrictions. Unreadable and unplayable.
But hey, we all know the multiplicity of codices is nothing but a cash grab by GW.
How so? At the moment a GK-player can buy a $50 Codex and a Space Marine player can buy the $60 Codex.
If they were all bundled both had to buy a $80 Codex.
I haven't seen a single convincing reason for why 3 chapters with tons of unique fluff, units, stats, relics, psychic powers and war gear options should be crammed into 1 book that's already expensive and bloated. Nobody wants to answer that question because there is no logical answer to it. Your argument is "because space marines have too many different books." If one of those chapters was severely underrepresented in the player base that might be a good argument. The 20 people who play SW, BA and DA in my local group and don't want to have 75% of their rules, special units and fluff stripped away and carry a $100, 250 page codex to every game just because you're butthurt prove that's not an issue. Templars got rolled in because not very many people played them compared to the other 3 and they had far less differences from C:SM. C:SM is already too bloated, adding more chapters that are different from C:SM in almost every unit entry is the opposite of a solution. It would cause a player backlash like we haven't seen since the spots fiasco and cost GW money just in codex sales. Not to mention the limited edition stuff like wolf guard SW codex that they wouldn't be able to do. I'm sorry but "because space marines suck and I hate them" is not a valid, logical reason to roll them all into one book the size of Moby dick.
I agree that not all SM should be rolled into one book.
That said, how much does DA lose by being merged into Codex Space Marines?
Inner Circle. Grim Resolve, and Deathwing Assault get rolled into Chapter Tactics: Dark Angels. Deathwing Knights/Ravenwing Black Knights are added with a similar clause as Crusader Squads.
BA are a similar situation. Make "Lucifer Engines" (or whatever they are called) a special rule and a part of Chapter Tactics. Add what, 3 units? that can only be taken in a Blood Angels Detachment.
Space Wolves and Grey Knights are really the only Space Marine armies that do not adhere to the Codex Astartes, and I could see being justified into having their own codex.
Of course, we could always go the other way. Codex: Ultramarins Codex: Salamanders Codex: Iyanden Codex: Ulthwe Codex: Thousand Sons Codex Traitor Guard Codex: Cadia Codex: Farsight Enclave etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/17 02:43:31
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
From a background perspective, the only one army in the franchise that "deserves" more than one Codex is the Imperial Guard, as its regiments are way more diverse from one another than the various Marine Chapters. In cruel irony, however, the IG remains locked into a single book, whereas Space Marines have several.
Financially, it seems sound, as Space Marines supposedly form the majority of the playerbase - by a large margin. One could argue that this is merely the result of GW's focus on Marines, and that ultimately the resulting lack of variety actually ends up hurting the game, but that doesn't change that I can at least see why GW would choose this path. And it fits to what has been their modus operandi for decades.
Just don't try to argue based on fluff or rules. As mentioned above, other armies feature a much greater diversity, and individual special rules or units could easily be "patched in" via GW's new supplements approach (see Clan Raukaan). If they are actually necessary to begin with. I'd argue that GW's practice of retroactively piling new units on top of existing armies does not automatically make them part of its core (arguably they were quite fine before too), just like I believe that people who love an army for its rules rather than its fluff/style/looks are "doing it wrong" (but that may simply be because I do not understand competitiveness in tabletop gaming at all).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/17 02:44:14
All marines into one Dex. Tbh, I don't buy the "It would take sooo many rules to make them comparable" argument. A lot of "unique" wargear is stuff that either isn't much different from the Codex variants or should be accessible to Codex marines anyway.
What could be done is to eliminate all the special units as is. Instead, give more options to the Codex entries to allow people to upgrade into something comparable. Ex. Upgrade Bikers with beast mounts to represent TWC and give bikers in general access to the melee weapons list.
Add in a few character entries, Chapter tactics to buff certain styles of play and you have a Codex that really allows the player to make their own chapter.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
I think GW's master plan is to split the armies into so many separate volumes that players have to switch to digital copies due to the impracticality of carrying so many books. They probably hope that once people do this, they'll get more codexes because there's no additional carry weight, and end up buying more armies. Additionally, they'll keep raising the prices, but they'll have no business expense for the distribution of digital editions.
So to that I say that I like having a physical book, because with care, it'll outlive the rules in it, while electronics have a set lifespan.
I think some of the current books need to be combined, but it needs to be done carefully. I would be perfectly fine with a book containing more than one faction. They could even save a few pages by combining the Wargear lists, and it doesn't mean they would have to stop being separate factions like they were in their separate books.
Inquisition would be complimented well by Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle. They are all extremely unique, and rather small compared to other factions. It also would make sense as the Grey Knights are the militant branch of the Ordo Malleus, while the Sisters of Battle are the Militant Branch of the Ordo Hereticus. The volume could have 2 sewn in ribbon bookmarks that could be used to separate the three factions, or for quick reference to certain units.
Guard should be put back in one volume (Astra Militarum & Militarum Tempestus) There isn't enough there to warrant separate volumes.
Chaos Space Marines and Daemons could compliment well. A Chaos player wouldn't have to buy a second book just to use the summoning powers his units already have.
The loyalist Space Marines are a little more tricky. Many of the differences can be taken care of in the Chapter Tactics. However, Each faction's unique HQs and other units (specifically Space Wolves units) add up to a really long book. I'd make it a 2 volume codex with all of them in there.
I haven't seen enough of the Xenos races to say what would be the best balance for them.
What I'd like best would be for all of the fluff to be taken out of the codexes. The Core rulebook was split into 3 volumes, one of which being only fluff. Put the factions' fluff into their own book(s). I'm tired of wearing out the book's spine flipping through the fluff pages to get to my rules.
Yes let's combine as many books as possible. That way everyone can take a bigger, more expensive book with stuff they don't necessarily need or want to every game. Nobody wins, yayyy! I'm all for separating the fluff and rules but that would also come with a higher production cost and higher price unless they made the books available separately (which from 7th BRB we know will never happen). I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why less books with more cost and bloat is somehow a good thing.
TheCustomLime wrote:Add in a few character entries, Chapter tactics to buff certain styles of play and you have a Codex that really allows the player to make their own chapter.
Yeah, something like Chapter Traits in the 4E Marine 'dex, or the Regimental Doctrines from the 3E Guard 'dex - it'd also make it more interesting for people creating their own Chapters. Customisation is always good. The official Chapters would simply have a hard-locked set of Traits, exactly like the official Guard regiments listed in the 3E 'dex.
ForeverARookie wrote:while the Sisters of Battle are the Militant Branch of the Ordo Hereticus
Not anymore.
Also, I can't really see how a few SC and special units from BA, DA and SW would necessitate "a second volume", but throwing GK and SoB - two armies that do not share a single common unit, to say nothing of the special rules - together makes perfect sense. Not to mention the fluff that would have to be sacrificed to save space, compared to every Marine Chapter's background being 50% general copypasta about the Horus Heresy.
Given how the last Codex that had the Sisters share space with a second army ended up, I'm not sure you're going to find a lot of fans for the idea of a book with three armies.
Also, it's my opinion that the Inquisition should remain a supplemental add-on for every Imperial army, necessitating it to stand apart from other lists. They do need ISTs and the Deathwatch, though - I have no idea why GW chose to leave those out from their minidex.
Toofast wrote:Yes let's combine as many books as possible. That way everyone can take a bigger, more expensive book with stuff they don't necessarily need or want to every game. Nobody wins, yayyy!
To be fair, a "Codex Imperialis" - which already existed once - would at least make sure that every army is updated at the same time, and you'd only need a single book wherever you play. Nobody would get the idea of separating the different classes of a P&P RPG into separate books - it's not mandatory to do so for a tabletop wargame either. I guess it depends on whether we want to focus on a single army or what may be better for the game as a whole.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/17 04:33:05
Toofast wrote: Yes let's combine as many books as possible. That way everyone can take a bigger, more expensive book with stuff they don't necessarily need or want to every game. Nobody wins, yayyy! I'm all for separating the fluff and rules but that would also come with a higher production cost and higher price unless they made the books available separately (which from 7th BRB we know will never happen). I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why less books with more cost and bloat is somehow a good thing.
GW will raise the prices regardless of what they do with the codexes. To field what was in the current Grey Knight Codex I purchased new for $33, I would have to buy the new Grey Knight Codex for $50, the Inquisition Codex for $25, and the Assassins Codex for $20. And there is a "limited edition" Grey Knight Codex for $110.
$95 (or $155) for what I could previously field for $33. My costs tripled because of the unneeded splitting of my codex. Splitting the codexes is one of GW's ways of trying to hide their price hikes. If they'd left everything in the Grey Knight Codex and tried to charge $155 for it, every single Grey Knight/Inquisition player would have sold their army because there is no universe in which that price is acceptable.
I've always bought the official models and books, but doing things the honest way is much harder when GW is pulling this sort of crap, all of the books can be found online for free, and China has almost perfected all of the GW models and is selling them for a fraction of the cost.
We aren't talking about splitting the current codexes. We are talking about combining existing codexes. In this case, SW, BA, and DA have had their own books for the entire history of the game. I do take issue with them splitting things up the way they did with GK. GK is not a 150 page $60 codex already full of bloat. There was no reason to split up what was already the thinnest codex with the least amount of units (other than sob) except for a blatant cash grab. There is a big difference between putting inquisition in GK and putting SW in C:SM.
martin74 wrote: Grey Knights, Inquisition, and Sisters of Battle should be one codex.
Why? They have little in common.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
martin74 wrote: Grey Knights, Inquisition, and Sisters of Battle should be one codex.
GK are for ordo malleus
SoB are for ordo hereticus
Overwach for ordo xenos ( in most times)
these sould be the 3 codexes, like the old times that were deamonhunders and wichhunters
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/17 05:01:27
Toofast wrote: We aren't talking about splitting the current codexes. We are talking about combining existing codexes. In this case, SW, BA, and DA have had their own books for the entire history of the game. I do take issue with them splitting things up the way they did with GK. GK is not a 150 page $60 codex already full of bloat. There was no reason to split up what was already the thinnest codex with the least amount of units (other than sob) except for a blatant cash grab. There is a big difference between putting inquisition in GK and putting SW in C:SM.
You make good points, and I'd like to see each army having a fair shake. I said the Space Marines were a touchy subject because they are the most numerous and have the most similarities. You are correct that the Space Wolves break the mold, which is why I put it towards the end with the more tentative ideas.
Fewer books means fewer updates. They could release a handful of new codexes whenever they make a new edition of the core rules so all of the armies are on the same page, instead of piecemealing it out so one faction is always overpowered and another is always underpowered.
martin74 wrote: Grey Knights, Inquisition, and Sisters of Battle should be one codex.
GK are for ordo malleus
SoB are for ordo hereticus
Overwach for ordo xenos ( in most times)
these sould be the 3 codexes, like the old times that were deamonhunders and wichhunters
SoB are independent of Ordo Hereticus and were shoehorned into witch hunters.
martin74 wrote: Grey Knights, Inquisition, and Sisters of Battle should be one codex.
GK are for ordo malleus
SoB are for ordo hereticus
Overwach for ordo xenos ( in most times)
these sould be the 3 codexes, like the old times that were deamonhunders and wichhunters
SoB are independent of Ordo Hereticus and were shoehorned into witch hunters.
but they got same objectives so are very close together, and so inqustors from hereticus could be in their codex
it makes more sense than last GK codex, whith has all 3 ordos whith the GK
Mr Morden wrote: Or alternatively you just make units that will work for SW and other non codex Chapters:
Why exactly does the Wolf Lord not get orbital bombardment and could not be represented by a Chapter Master?
Just give some extra close Combat options for the Dreadnought which would allow the more Specalist /silly variants
Grey Hunters - just give non Codex Tac mariens option for CC weapon
Skyclaws and Blood Calws - just give a option for Jump packs to scouts
Thunderwolf Cavalry and Fenersian Wolves - another example foGW trying to think up stuff to make the Codex unique - just give a Feral beast / Riding beast option for non Codex marines
Long Fangs - Devestators - option to upgrade to Veterans
Chapter Tactics for the various non Codex Chapters
I'm sorry but that would totally suck. Your suggestions either suck, do not represent the uniqueness of Space Wolves (purely from a rules perspective without even considering fluff) or would have to be much more cumbersome than you are suggesting.
The problem I'm seeing is that people are butthurt that SW get attention. That's not the way I look at it. The way I look at it, if you want to play a Space Marine chapter that is more focused on close assault, has less of the "codex astartes" structure and is more feral in nature, then you use the SW rules. You don't have to call yourself Space Wolves, you don't have to be a furry. The rules exist as another option to the basic C:SM style.
Now, if your opposition is that the uniqueness shouldn't exist at all, ok, I can get down with that.... but it should have been done in 3rd edition, not now.
If your opposition is that GW should spend more time focusing on the Xenos, I agree. I'd be happy to see the same level attention given to all Xenos. But those other Marine codices exist because they are popular and because GW love to push their marines. The SW release was only a 3 week release, the Orks were a 6 week release. If GW are only dedicating 6 weeks worth of releases a year to other Space Marine chapters, I don't really have a big problem with that.
Paradigm wrote: Maybe this is just because I have lot of armies, but I'd like to see the following
Codex: Astartes. Contains the rules and information for all Space Marine Chapters and making your own. DA, BA, SW and BT have all their unique units included like the BT stuff in the current codex, unlocked by Chapter Tactics
Codex: Imperium. IG, Inquisition, GK, Sisters and Assassins
Codex: Chaos. CSM, Demons, and full traitor guard rules. Includes Legion and Warband rules.
Codex: Ancient Enemies. Necrons, Eldar and DE
Codex: Rising Threat. Nids, Tau and Orks
Each of these would be about double the size of a current book, but there would also be softback 'just the rules' versions available.
I'd love to have a Codex Astartes. I wonder, has GW ever experimented with releasing any kind of book or supplement that allowed players to make their own factions/rules? It's something that roleplaying franchises sometimes do.
martin74 wrote: Grey Knights, Inquisition, and Sisters of Battle should be one codex.
GK are for ordo malleus
SoB are for ordo hereticus
Overwach for ordo xenos ( in most times)
these sould be the 3 codexes, like the old times that were deamonhunders and wichhunters
SoB are independent of Ordo Hereticus and were shoehorned into witch hunters.
but they got same objectives so are very close together, and so inqustors from hereticus could be in their codex
it makes more sense than last GK codex, whith has all 3 ordos whith the GK
except their objectives aren't that similer, the Ordo Hereticis, serves to hunt down ehretics and witches within the Imperium, the SoBs are the millitant arm of the church. VERY VERY goals.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Mr Morden wrote: Or alternatively you just make units that will work for SW and other non codex Chapters:
Why exactly does the Wolf Lord not get orbital bombardment and could not be represented by a Chapter Master?
Just give some extra close Combat options for the Dreadnought which would allow the more Specalist /silly variants
Grey Hunters - just give non Codex Tac mariens option for CC weapon
Skyclaws and Blood Calws - just give a option for Jump packs to scouts
Thunderwolf Cavalry and Fenersian Wolves - another example foGW trying to think up stuff to make the Codex unique - just give a Feral beast / Riding beast option for non Codex marines
Long Fangs - Devestators - option to upgrade to Veterans
Chapter Tactics for the various non Codex Chapters
I'm sorry but that would totally suck. Your suggestions either suck, do not represent the uniqueness of Space Wolves (purely from a rules perspective without even considering fluff) or would have to be much more cumbersome than you are suggesting.
The problem I'm seeing is that people are butthurt that SW get attention. That's not the way I look at it. The way I look at it, if you want to play a Space Marine chapter that is more focused on close assault, has less of the "codex astartes" structure and is more feral in nature, then you use the SW rules. You don't have to call yourself Space Wolves, you don't have to be a furry. The rules exist as another option to the basic C:SM style.
Now, if your opposition is that the uniqueness shouldn't exist at all, ok, I can get down with that.... but it should have been done in 3rd edition, not now.
If your opposition is that GW should spend more time focusing on the Xenos, I agree. I'd be happy to see the same level attention given to all Xenos. But those other Marine codices exist because they are popular and because GW love to push their marines. The SW release was only a 3 week release, the Orks were a 6 week release. If GW are only dedicating 6 weeks worth of releases a year to other Space Marine chapters, I don't really have a big problem with that.
Seems to me that YOUR butthurt that people are suggesting your special snowflake chapter isn't really so special. And it's not. SW's have wolves (which they ride on occasionally), Rune Priests instead of Librarians (ooh, such uniqueness!), and more than the usual number of pistols close combat weapons. Other than that, they're marines. They have statlines full of 4's, wear 3+ power armour, have ATSKNF, and use all the same guns. You gush about how totes original they are, but you don't back it up with anything about why the SW's RULES are so unique, special, and completely different from vanilla marines. Come on. Give us some examples. How do his suggestions "purely from rules perspective and without even considering the fluff" (yeah right) not represent the "uniqueness" of the Space Wolves and are "lame" (a well reasoned and objective argument if ever I heard one).
Wow, people are SO attached to their special snowflake chapters. Come on. Give us SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of why they're so unique, RULES WISE. Don't mention the fluff. Not even once. A special rule that effects the whole army (Black Rage) is really easy to add. It takes a single short paragraph. A vehicle upgrade, a CC upgrade option, or letting a unit or character take a mount is really easy to add. It's just one more line of text to the unit. An alternate force org chart is really easy to add, it takes up half a page at most. Presto, an assault oriented Space Marine chapter that don't play by the rules. The current (5th ed) Space Wolf Codex is 96 PAGES LONG and has fewer options than vanilla marines!
And no, SW, BA, and DA have NOT had their own codices since the dawn of time. Armies of the Imperium used to be one codex. The special snowflake chapters often lapsed out of date for several editions. Space Wolves have had a grand total of 3 codices in 7 editions. Dark Angels have also had 3. Blood Angels have had 4. They're players got by fine without an updated codex. Most of the more unique units weren't even in the old codices, they're new editions that were pulled from the same place that GW pulled Kaldor Draigo. But they've still gotten more love and care than Necrons or Dark Eldar did for ages, or SoB's get right now, and those are MAIN FREAKING ARMIES that actually have unique and distinct statlines and rules that no other army can replicate.
And yes, I HAVE read the DA, SW, and BA codices. I've read the old ones, I've read the chapter approved ones, and I've read SOME of the current bloated ones. Their "uniqueness" is lost on me, because I don't have a mad crush on them.
Lastly, saying that combining codices somehow means we're demanding a price hike is horse . When I got into this hobby, codices were $25 each. Now they're pushing $60. It's not because there are more rules to actually play the game; they're just spread out over more pages. It's not material costs; the online versions cost practically as much. GW raises prices because they want to, not because they have to.
ForeverARookie wrote: Fewer books means fewer updates. They could release a handful of new codexes whenever they make a new edition of the core rules so all of the armies are on the same page, instead of piecemealing it out so one faction is always overpowered and another is always underpowered.
All armies not being on the same page is because of the way GW releases codices. If you just give the additional chapters smaller release windows (which we've already seen, SW were a 3 week window vs Orks a 6 week window and now GK a 1 week window) then you can still fit more factions in to a year as if you had one big release window for the "Big Book of Marine".
That's something I was arguing a while back when this was being discussed last time, I'd be happy to keep all the other supplement codices and just reduce the release window for them. So you could have, say, a 6 week release window where we get the DA, BA and SW all at once, or a 2 week release window for each of them spread across a couple of years.